Hey Facepunch, I realize this is a potentially weird place to post this, but since I'm on here all the time and I've seen SOME sensible posters, maybe I can get some relatable advice.
My mom is pushing feverishly for me to "give my soul to God." To give a bit of background, she raised me my whole life with no religious alignment, and through various life experiences I found myself more or less agnostic, though I pursued opportunities to learn more about organized religion, mostly relating to Christianity, but never really had any particularly positive experiences at any churches/church events I went to, either by myself or with religious friends.
2 years ago, my mom met her current husband (my dad was absent from my life) who is a vehement conservative with very strong religious beliefs. He's a nice guy, but has a habit of debating anyone with opposing views with a sense of superiority, to put it lightly. He also loves debating, so he ends up upsetting a lot of people by acting pompous and snarky. (He frequents Mother Jones' facebook, has been banned from there several times for being disruptive/abrasive.) Ever since she met him she's completely changed her personality; she went from a non-religious, peaceful, open-minded person to a vehemently religious, intrusive, and bewilderingly close-minded conservative in a matter of a few months, and over time she's gotten worse. (I'm not saying religion/conservatism are bad, but she and her husband are the epitome of the stereotypical backwards conservative)
To make matters worse, they're OBSESSED with religious prophecy, and are convinced that, in my mother's own words, "we all only have 2 years left on Earth." (My mother also insists that the current pope is the anti-christ, the events in the middle-east are part of a final doomsday prophecy coming to a head, and that homosexuality/transgenderism are the result of a deep government conspiracy involving chemicals put in our food/water, perpetrated by satanists/satan himself.) They frequently talk about and plan for living "off the grid" at a house in the woods about 5 miles out of the city where we live, "when shit hits the fan."
My mom has been begging me to come to her weekly bible study she hosts at her house with her husband's family where they watch "scientific-religion" videos, which break down and, "prove," parts of the bible using pseudo-science, citing hosts who, while having degrees in things like engineering, making them, "reliable sources," are fucking whackjobs. Even though I consider myself religious and have for about 4 years, I've been hesitant to go, mostly because most organized religious events or gatherings I've ever been to have made me uncomfortable, but also because the things they discuss typically have less to do with analyzing the bible or relaying religious experiences in their own lives, and more to do with apocalypse theories and planning. While self-destuctive at worst, their theories and activities have been pretty harmless, but last night when I finally attended I overheard my mom's husband and his dad talking about what kinds of guns they should be investing in, citing different models' abilities to, in their words, "take way more people out," because they believe that they're going to be some kind of bastion in the woods that'll need constant weaponized defense when the world ends.
Anyway, I showed up late to the study, and conveniently missed most of the video they were watching, and so by the time I got there and joined in on the conversation we were all talking about normal things, work, politics, family stuff. Then out of nowhere my mom turned to me and said, "so we need to figure out a way for you to pray to Jesus and give your soul to God in a way that makes you feel comfortable, because we don't have long and I want to make sure that when we all die that you go to heaven with us." I had no words to respond with, and just kind of stared at her, and she smiled and said, "I know all this makes you uncomfortable, it took me a long time to find religion too, but this is important to me." Then her husbands family members all started chiming in, talking about their initial forays into religion and other religious experiences, and (I'm not close with her husbands family at all, I haven't talked to a lot of them much) my mom says to all of them, "well it's hard for him, I raised him without religion, and tack on his daddy issues and then trying to get him to convene with the holy father, it makes sense that he's having a hard time with it." And they all just smile and nod and stare at me. I've had a lot of struggles dealing with my dad's absence, and I've even reached out to and met him in the last few years, though it's been a very stressful and difficult experience, I was seriously offended that my mom offered that info to them so willingly, using it in that context, with these people who I don't know well. (Yeah I don't know all of you well either but you don't know me in real life, these people could see my face, experience how I feel about that subject in person, and I didn't opt to share it with them, my mom just handed it to them like it was info about a birthmark or something.)
I don't know what to do now. She wants me to come weekly, wants me to, "give my soul to god," via a group prayer with these people, wants me to get baptized at her church, but then makes me feel bad when I don't follow through or back off of it, because, "it's important to her." I don't want to upset her, but I feel like she's gone crazy since she met her current husband, and I don't want myself or my wife or my kids around their weird doomsday talk. I'm not close to other members of my family, most of whom are crazy in other ways, which makes me worry that there's some kind of family trend of going fucking nutters, and that I'm going to end up like them too. I don't want to be a half-assed religious person, but I don't feel like the way to be a real devout Christian is the way they think, and if it is, I don't want to be involved with that anyway. What should I do?
Does your mom have a background of mental illness? Sounds borderline psychotic to me. Have you talked to her about how you feel or are you just sharing this with us? If not try to talk to her but honestly I'd absolutely recommend to go see a psychologist/psychiatrist with her.
Myself, my mom, my grandma, and my great grandma all have/had anxiety and/or depression, my great grandma had early onset dementia and my grandma has early onset dementia. My mom doesn't have any mental illness history apart from anxiety/depression that I know of.
Can't say I've been in a situation like that myself, but it seems like, what's the game plan? You can't just fake following through because at some point it's gonna be too much for you. I guess try not to be judgemental (though I would find that very hard in your position), but be clear that you can't force yourself to believe in something like that?
Either way, best of luck.
It's a tough situation. Personally, I don't think she should be forcing you into their religion, but on the other hand, you don't want to alienate yourself from your mom. It might be best to explain that you don't want to partake in their practices because it's just not what you believe. She might appreciate the honesty and understand. But if that doesn't go well, you could go through with the baptism process. Suffering through that might be better than having them resent you in the long run.
Semi similar situation though not as serious, and I went from super religious to agnostic in a decently religious family (country to be honest), but the best thing you can do for certain situations (in my experience, also most of those experts in the videos only have honorary doctorates or degrees)
1. Debates are useless, just "admit" he's right and carry on with your life in that regard and that should sort out your problems with that, in some arguments at least. My dad is the same, they love to throw circular reasoning into their vocabulary, and yet use it themselves (using the bible to prove the bible) so there's no point in debating with people like that, have to just accept it and make sure they think they've won so that you can carry on with life.
2. You can try and talk with your mom, explain to her that while you may be agnostic at the moment you're trying different things to expand on your view of life and walking your own path, if they throw the whole "lukewarm christians are the worst" stuff at you, you can say that forcing their ways down your throat (in nicer terms obv) might just make you push back more, and that (in their eyes) you have two years to change your ways. Explain that you don't want to accept Jesus for her, but would rather do it of your own accord and through your own time so that it is well and truly genuine when or if you do. Hopefully she changes after a little while and calms down, but the talk might give you some time if she's even slightly understanding. If she doesn't accept this or something along these lines you might have to upset her in that case, sometimes the only way to convince religious extremists of something is to throw it in their face and force them to accept that that's the way you are
Hopefully I helped a bit
Maybe im harsh, but my family has always been full of problems. I simply cut all contact with them.
You're your own person, do not let anyone force you into a situation you genuinely do not want to be in.
Family or otherwise.
If you don't want to go you are guilty of nothing, and try to keep it from troubling yourself.
Thanks for the feedback guys, I'm going to have a talk with her about my concerns, and depending on how things go I'm probably going to keep my kids away from her for a while.
Ya, polite honesty is the best way to go with this kind of thing. If you are spiritual at all, it might smooth things a bit if you let her know that you believe in SOMETHING, whether or not it is God or god or just a universal truth / love / whatever. If she really NEEDS you to believe in God, then she may be able to make this fit her expectations enough that she can cope.
Just a thought. I was a christian for a long time, I'm somewhere in-between agnosticism, humanism, and christianity now I suppose. My family is not pushy about it at all though, but my mom does ask me about it sometimes.
Let her know you're an individual entitled to your own actions and beliefs, and that you love her. Then tell her how you're going to act in the future.
Like everyone else, I think it'll be better to be straight with her whatever you decide to do.
Maybe talk to other relatives about it and have an intervention without the husband? It's worth a try before you consider cutting all ties.
[QUOTE=maeZtro;50533995]Maybe talk to other relatives about it and have an intervention without the husband? It's worth a try before you consider cutting all ties.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately the rest of my family is either crazy or on opposite sides of several schisms caused by each-others craziness, so turning to anyone will only exacerbate longstanding issues there. I don't want to cut all ties with her, but the comments about weapons and impending death and stuff aren't okay for my kids to be hearing, whether she realizes it or not. So I'll still keep in contact with her but having her around my kids is probably going to have to wait until she cools off or comes to her senses.
[QUOTE=hippowombat;50533571] I'm probably going to keep my kids away from her for a while.[/QUOTE]
Wait, are you like, above age and not living with her? If that's the case you're an adult and she has no right at all to make you do any of this. If she doesn't respect your choices she doesn't deserve to be close to you imo. You can't let her manipulate you into joining her cult.
Oof, that's a tough one. I'd do my best to be as non-committal as possible. Be firm that you're not going to give in to what she wants (and absolutely don't engage in her cult nonsense) but don't be hostile. Remain loving and accepting. If your relationship with her tanks, it will be her doing. There's not much that can be done about it. You can't make her see reason, and trying to may entrench her further. But, you have a right to your own beliefs, and to not expose your family to harmful ideas (certainly no one would fault you for cutting contact if your mother was trying to raise your kids to be neo-Nazis, for instance).
Stand your ground, but be as Christian about it as possible. Don't escalate it into a fight. Serious question though, why are you going to her Bible study group or whatever at all? It's clear her beliefs are absolutely ridiculous. Why would you expose yourself to it willingly?
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;50534301]Serious question though, why are you going to her Bible study group or whatever at all? It's clear her beliefs are absolutely ridiculous. Why would you expose yourself to it willingly?[/QUOTE]
I didn't really want to expose myself to it at all, I spent the entire week leading up to my attending following my agreeing to go dreading it, but I guess I hoped that they'd talk less about doomsday shit and more about the bible. Plus I was just trying to get her to stop asking me to go, some part of me thought that my attending once would be enough and that she'd back off when she saw how uncomfortable it made me, but it's only made it worse. And I was trying to be polite, I guess. A mixture of all these things. I dunno, she kinda normalizes the doomsday stuff in her mind because I guess they even talk about it at her Church, and I don't know much about the bible, so I was thinking maybe it was a healthy thing to explore in the bible, but even if it is in other contexts, I don't think their contexts (which I gained more understanding of upon attending) aren't healthy.
[editline]16th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;50534237]Wait, are you like, above age and not living with her? If that's the case you're an adult and she has no right at all to make you do any of this. If she doesn't respect your choices she doesn't deserve to be close to you imo. You can't let her manipulate you into joining her cult.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I don't live with her. She's just been calling me bugging me to attend for some time now. As I said with Johnnymo1, she kinda normalizes it for herself, and not having experienced it for myself at the event itself, I didn't really fully grasp what I was in for.
[QUOTE=hippowombat;50534440]I didn't really want to expose myself to it at all, I spent the entire week leading up to my attending following my agreeing to go dreading it, but I guess I hoped that they'd talk less about doomsday shit and more about the bible. Plus I was just trying to get her to stop asking me to go, some part of me thought that my attending once would be enough and that she'd back off when she saw how uncomfortable it made me, but it's only made it worse. And I was trying to be polite, I guess. A mixture of all these things. I dunno, she kinda normalizes the doomsday stuff in her mind because I guess they even talk about it at her Church, and I don't know much about the bible, so I was thinking maybe it was a healthy thing to explore in the bible, but even if it is in other contexts, I don't think their contexts (which I gained more understanding of upon attending) aren't healthy.
[editline]16th June 2016[/editline]
Yeah, I don't live with her. She's just been calling me bugging me to attend for some time now. As I said with Johnnymo1, she kinda normalizes it for herself, and not having experienced it for myself at the event itself, I didn't really fully grasp what I was in for.[/QUOTE]
First thing you have to do is put down your foot. You are not going to let anyone force you to do things that you don't want to do, not even your mother. You can tell her that it's unreasonable to push you that hard into not only doing the things she wants you to do, but [I]believing[/I] what she says you must believe. You are free to not believe her.
Besides that, you will undoubtedly get into arguments with her. After all, she's your mother and I don't think you'd want to cut ties. You should avoid many kinds of arguments, but if you do get into arguments, make sure you're well read.
I can recommend Youtubers like [url=https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ-vHE5CrGaL_ITEg-n3OeA]TheraminTrees[/url], [url=https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCc_xdkOBgSYLmXTn-VSQ4uA]Qualiasoup[/url] and [url=https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpBcjNY_nr_DRHIDYBP_EUg]Evid3nc3[/url]. Qualiasoup and Theramintrees are brothers. They and Evid3nce have both personal stories on how they experienced religion and the arguments that they deal with.
But more than anything, you [B]don't[/B] want to come across as a know-it-all who has all the answers. The videos referred to above should help you build an opinion and give you new insights. They are not (necessarily) good argumentation material. You'll have to be wary not to come across as an "angry atheist". If you get that label, you'll only be in a worse position.
There's a book with a very provocative title: [url=https://www.amazon.com/Manual-Creating-Atheists-Peter-Boghossian/dp/1939578094]A manual for creating atheists[/url] (also in audio book). I strongly recommend you to read it. [B]NOT[/B] to turn your mother into an atheist, but for a way to talk to her about these things in a way that [U]you[/U] feel comfortable with and without compromising your stance.
In short, the book describes the "Socratic method" which questions the underlying epistemology of someone's beliefs. The benefits of it are that it's not "pushy", since you give the other person the idea that you're trying to understand what they're saying, which avoids conflict.
One more thing, and this is a tip from (very) personal experience: at [B]all[/B] costs, be [U]very[/U] wary of your mother or [I]anyone[/I] else trying to get to you emotionally to get you to believe something. Your mother is already doing this when she says that you believing these things is very important to her, or when she says that you won't have long and that she wants you to go to heaven with her. Those arguments are meant to evoke emotion in you. She is worried about you, she's sad to see you the way you are, she believes you won't go to heaven. She wants you to believe that you're [U]hurting[/U] her, simply by not believing what she's saying. Be careful of this kind of reasoning:
[QUOTE=hippowombat;50534440]I was just trying to get her to stop asking me to go, [...] And I was trying to be polite, I guess.[/QUOTE]
It can be [U]very[/U] difficult to hold down your foot and stay adamant in that you remain unconvinced that any of this even holds any truth. But the moment you say "Okay I'll [U][I]provisionally[/I][/U] accept what you're saying. I don't want you to feel hurt because of me.", you'll be going down a very dark path in which your ability to think will be paralysed completely by your emotions and empathy. I'm serious, [url=http://www.facepunch.com/threads/943541/20]this has happened to me[/url].
So yeah, stay kind, don't be pushy, even when she is. Tell her how you feel about her trying to push you that far. Put your foot down, but try not to start a fight. Make sure you're well read and don't go along any emotional rollercoaster she's trying to put you in.
[QUOTE=FPtje;50543101]First thing you have to do is put down your foot. You are not going to let anyone force you to do things that you don't want to do, not even your mother. You can tell her that it's unreasonable to push you that hard into not only doing the things she wants you to do, but [I]believing[/I] what she says you must believe. You are free to not believe her.
Besides that, you will undoubtedly get into arguments with her. After all, she's your mother and I don't think you'd want to cut ties. You should avoid many kinds of arguments, but if you do get into arguments, make sure you're well read.
I can recommend Youtubers like [url=https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ-vHE5CrGaL_ITEg-n3OeA]TheraminTrees[/url], [url=https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCc_xdkOBgSYLmXTn-VSQ4uA]Qualiasoup[/url] and [url=https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpBcjNY_nr_DRHIDYBP_EUg]Evid3nc3[/url]. Qualiasoup and Theramintrees are brothers. They and Evid3nce have both personal stories on how they experienced religion and the arguments that they deal with.
But more than anything, you [B]don't[/B] want to come across as a know-it-all who has all the answers. The videos referred to above should help you build an opinion and give you new insights. They are not (necessarily) good argumentation material. You'll have to be wary not to come across as an "angry atheist". If you get that label, you'll only be in a worse position.
There's a book with a very provocative title: [url=https://www.amazon.com/Manual-Creating-Atheists-Peter-Boghossian/dp/1939578094]A manual for creating atheists[/url] (also in audio book). I strongly recommend you to read it. [B]NOT[/B] to turn your mother into an atheist, but for a way to talk to her about these things in a way that [U]you[/U] feel comfortable with and without compromising your stance.
In short, the book describes the "Socratic method" which questions the underlying epistemology of someone's beliefs. The benefits of it are that it's not "pushy", since you give the other person the idea that you're trying to understand what they're saying, which avoids conflict.
One more thing, and this is a tip from (very) personal experience: at [B]all[/B] costs, be [U]very[/U] wary of your mother or [I]anyone[/I] else trying to get to you emotionally to get you to believe something. Your mother is already doing this when she says that you believing these things is very important to her, or when she says that you won't have long and that she wants you to go to heaven with her. Those arguments are meant to evoke emotion in you. She is worried about you, she's sad to see you the way you are, she believes you won't go to heaven. She wants you to believe that you're [U]hurting[/U] her, simply by not believing what she's saying. Be careful of this kind of reasoning:
It can be [U]very[/U] difficult to hold down your foot and stay adamant in that you remain unconvinced that any of this even holds any truth. But the moment you say "Okay I'll [U][I]provisionally[/I][/U] accept what you're saying. I don't want you to feel hurt because of me.", you'll be going down a very dark path in which your ability to think will be paralysed completely by your emotions and empathy. I'm serious, [url=http://www.facepunch.com/threads/943541/20]this has happened to me[/url].
So yeah, stay kind, don't be pushy, even when she is. Tell her how you feel about her trying to push you that far. Put your foot down, but try not to start a fight. Make sure you're well read and don't go along any emotional rollercoaster she's trying to put you in.[/QUOTE]
Only just now saw this answer, but I wanted to say thanks for the very thorough answer! Very good advice, thank you!
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