Some backstory:
[QUOTE]ATHENS — Many Greeks went to bed on Friday thinking that their government and its creditors had all but completed a deal that would keep the country in the eurozone and was acceptable all around, even though it contained another raft of austerity measures.
But by midday Saturday any sense of relief was gone, replaced by anxiety as negotiations in Brussels took a tough turn. Greeks were glued to their radios or were constantly refreshing news websites on their phones as it became clear that the other nations using the euro were still divided over granting Greece another bailout.
“I thought the drama was over,” said Panagiotis Demesoukas, 49, who used to own a construction business. “But then I realized, no. Even this deal wasn’t enough for them.”
And by Sunday, anxiety was turning to frustration and even anger as it became increasingly likely that any deal — if one could be reached at all — would involve further concessions from Greece, including a rushed package of new legislation to overhaul various elements of economic policy.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/13/world/europe/greeks-relief-turned-to-anxiety-then-frustration-as-talks-wore-on.html"]More in Source.[/URL]
Main Articles:
[QUOTE]As European Union leaders push Greece for more austerity reforms, Athens enters political crisis and social media erupts in response. A two-day emergency meeting on Greece’s economic future ended Sunday with strict conditions from the European Union, including contentious austerity reforms, if it wants a new bailout and keep the euro.
To meet the conditions for fresh aid packages and a third bailout that Greece needs to avoid bankruptcy, European finance ministers want Greece to pass a series of austerity measures--including tax and pension reforms-- through Parliament and put them into law by Wednesday. Greece will also have to lose fiscal sovereignty as part of the austerity measures, implying that the troika- the International Monetary Fund, the European Commission and the European Central Bank- would be in charge of all legislation relevant to austerity. This also includes changes to legislation already passed by the Syriza government since it took power this year.
The two-day meeting resulted in a four-page document leaked earlier on Saturday, controversially mentioning that if Greece refuses the conditions for talks on a new bailout, it would have to “temporarily” leave the Eurozone.
As European leaders seek evidence that Greece will implement austerity reforms, the ruling-Syriza government appears to be in crisis. According to the Guardian, 17 MPs broke ranks over the weekend, bringing an end to a working majority in government. The crisis might push Tsipras to call for new elections. "What is at play here is an attempt to humiliate Greece and Greeks, or to overthrow the Tsipras government," Dimitrios Papadimoulis, a Syriza member of the European Parliament, told Mega TV. Meanwhile, emotions were raw on social media, as people voiced their opposition to the Europe’s restrictions on Greece as a “coup.”
[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Greeks-Face-Humiliating-Demands-As-Twitter-Says-ThisIsACoup-20150712-0012.html"]More in Source.[/URL]
[QUOTE]The leaders of the eurozone are a hit on Twitter Sunday night. Unfortunately for them, the trending of #ThisIsACoup is all hostile.
As the eurozone leaders push a list of demands in exchange for giving Greece essential short-term financial aid, many people are taking to social media to back Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras. They say the proposals on everything from pension rules to privatizations amount to a coup.
The term is topping Twitter.com's list of hashtag trends.
Even the Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman got into the act early Monday: "This Eurogroup list of demands is madness. The trending hashtag #ThisIsACoup is exactly right."[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-greece-bailout-talks-hinge-trust-issues-32391729"]Source.[/URL]
The meeting in Brussels is still ongoing, though it might wrap up any minute/hour now, perhaps with an extended deadline or something else. CNBC has a liveblog covering it, accessible [URL="http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/12/greece-crisis-deadline-for-greece-as-european-leaders-meet.html"]here[/URL] and [URL="http://live.cnbc.com/Event/Deadline_for_Greece_as_European_leaders_meet"]here[/URL]. Right now they're going over how Asian markets are reacting as Brussels seems to have gone quiet for the moment. The Live Blog plays a little sound when it gets updated so you can safely have it in another tab and you'll hear a little noise to let you know when to check back.
[editline]12th July 2015[/editline]
Here is a summary of the Eurogroup proposal to Greece.
[URL="http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/13/us-eurozone-greece-proposal-summary-idUSKCN0PN00120150713?mod=related&channelName=ousivMolt"]http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/13/us-eurozone-greece-proposal-summary-idUSKCN0PN00120150713?mod=related&channelName=ousivMolt[/URL]
[editline]13th July 2015[/editline]
CNBC is now posting updates to its Squawk Box instead of its Live Blog.
[URL="http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/13/greek-latest-europe-leaders-edge-towards-compromise.html"]http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/13/greek-latest-europe-leaders-edge-towards-compromise.html[/URL]
It's absurd that Greece's shitty fiscal policies circa 2007 are considered a legitimate reason to bleed its people dry over several years.
Maybe Alex the PM and Yaris the Hatmaster General should not have put Greece's economy on the line by playing chicken with Europe, but nobody deserves to have their country taken over like this.
From what I've heard, the current proposal calls for Europe to write Greece's laws and have them passed with no editing or debating by the 15th AND for 50 billion euros worth of Greek government property to be given to the troika as a liability to be potentially sold off in case the country defaults... and so much more.
I can't believe the IMF even has legal basis for taking another governments sovernty, I hope the US uses its leverage in the IMF to stop this but I doubt it
Hey Greece, this is your own fault. Go be mad at your own government and tax evading citizens instead and maybe you'll get something done.
[QUOTE=draugur;48191593]Hey Greece, this is your own fault. Go be mad at your own government and tax evading citizens instead and maybe you'll get something done.[/QUOTE]
The EU forcing greece to sell itself for next to nothing is the EU's fault
[QUOTE=Sableye;48191572]I can't believe the IMF even has legal basis for taking another governments sovernty, I hope the US uses its leverage in the IMF to stop this but I doubt it[/QUOTE]
I hope not. Greece deserves anything that comes at them. Yeah it sucks for the people that didn't cause the problem, but at least this way they'll eventually have a Greece worth living in instead of a corrupt shit hole that bleeds them dry.
[QUOTE=draugur;48191600]I hope not. Greece deserves anything that comes at them. Yeah it sucks for the people that didn't cause the problem, but at least this way they'll eventually have a Greece worth living in instead of a corrupt shit hole that bleeds them dry.[/QUOTE]
How will this help?
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;48191599]The EU forcing greece to sell itself for next to nothing is the EU's fault[/QUOTE]
The EU didn't force Greece to elect and keep a corrupt government or anything. The Greek government did this full well knowing the consequences.
If you're going to fuck around with other people's money expect there to be consequences. If I took out a loan and defaulted on it, the bank or government I took a loan from is going to liquidate my assets (their assets because they can legally take them pending court action, which I agree'd is fair when I signed a loan contract) to recoup their losses. This is no different.
[QUOTE=draugur;48191609]The EU didn't force Greece to elect and keep a corrupt government or anything. The Greek government did this full well knowing the consequences.[/QUOTE]
How does that give them the right to further screw the country over?
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;48191624]How does that give them the right to further screw the country over?[/QUOTE]
They accepted the loans and fucked around instead of fixing the problems that they needed loans for in the first place. If I took out a $3,000 loan because my car broke down and I lost my job as a result, and my intended plan and agree'd use for the money is to fix my car so I can get a job and obviously pay back the loan, but instead I use that money to buy drugs and don't bother fixing my car or getting a job to pay back my loan, am I still responsible for that loan despite not using the money as intended? Yes, yes I am. Same principle.
Their "right" comes from the fact Greece accepted the loans to avoid default due to their own fuck ups. It's not the EU's fault they didn't take the situation seriously enough to actually handle it and continued fucking their citizens over instead. Greece is a sovereign nation, as a nation they are expected to be able to run their own country properly. It is entirely their own fault they couldn't do that and it is entirely their own fault they are facing repercussions for not paying back their loans.
The "big bad EU" didn't just come out of nowhere and say, "yeah, well we decided to just fuck you over out of nowhere, suckers." They set a deadline and Greece didn't meet that deadline by their own choosing, that's the real world, too bad.
[QUOTE=draugur;48191634]They accepted the loans and fucked around instead of fixing the problems that they needed loans for in the first place. If I took out a $3,000 loan because my car broke down and I lost my job as a result, and my intended plan and agree'd use for the money is to fix my car so I can get a job and obviously pay back the loan, but instead I use that money to buy drugs and don't bother fixing my car or getting a job to pay back my loan, am I still responsible for that loan despite not using the money as intended? Yes, yes I am. Same principle.
Their "right" comes from the fact Greece accepted the loans to avoid default due to their own fuck ups. It's not the EU's fault they didn't take the situation seriously enough to actually handle it and continued fucking their citizens over instead. Greece is a sovereign nation, as a nation they are expected to be able to run their own country properly. It is entirely their own fault they couldn't do that and it is entirely their own fault they are facing repercussions for not paying back their loans.
The "big bad EU" didn't just come out of nowhere and say, "yeah, well we decided to just fuck you over out of nowhere, suckers." They set a deadline and Greece didn't meet that deadline by their own choosing, that's the real world, too bad.[/QUOTE]
Of course they couldn't pay off the loans with those ridiculous austerity measures
[QUOTE=draugur;48191634]They accepted the loans and fucked around instead of fixing the problems that they needed loans for in the first place. If I took out a $3,000 loan because my car broke down and I lost my job as a result, and my intended plan and agree'd use for the money is to fix my car so I can get a job and obviously pay back the loan, but instead I use that money to buy drugs and don't bother fixing my car or getting a job to pay back my loan, am I still responsible for that loan despite not using the money as intended? Yes, yes I am. Same principle.
Their "right" comes from the fact Greece accepted the loans to avoid default due to their own fuck ups. It's not the EU's fault they didn't take the situation seriously enough to actually handle it and continued fucking their citizens over instead. Greece is a sovereign nation, as a nation they are expected to be able to run their own country properly. It is entirely their own fault they couldn't do that and it is entirely their own fault they are facing repercussions for not paying back their loans.
The "big bad EU" didn't just come out of nowhere and say, "yeah, well we decided to just fuck you over out of nowhere, suckers." They set a deadline and Greece didn't meet that deadline by their own choosing, that's the real world, too bad.[/QUOTE]
Exactly this. I have sympathy for the Greek people but not the government. It's their fault this has happened. If we act lightly on them, then they will just do it again because they will think, "Ah, they let us off last time". No. We NEED to be harsh, as bad as it is. The collateral of 50 billion euros of Greek government property is just a necessary part of a loan. If I took a loan out then my house would be used as collateral, so if they are taking a bigger loan, a lot of their houses are being taken. It's all fair.
Side note: thank god they removed ratings from SH, no longer have to be afraid to voice my opinion because of a fear of being dumb'd to hell.
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;48191671]Of course they couldn't pay off the loans with those ridiculous austerity measures[/QUOTE]
They were by no means ridiculous. What was so ridiculous about them in your eyes?
If you read the Reuters summery of the proposal, almost all of it was simply setting timetables.
[QUOTE=draugur;48191695]They were by no means ridiculous. What was so ridiculous about them in your eyes?[/QUOTE]
Please tell me how a government is supposed to get revenue for which to pay off a debt, whilst being forced to give up it's revenue souces
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;48191704]Please tell me how a government is supposed to get revenue for which to pay off a debt, whilst being forced to give up it's revenue souces[/QUOTE]
Taxes, like a normal country. Maybe if they cracked down on tax evasion when they were supposed to that wouldn't be the issue. What exactly does the EU gain from purposely fucking Greece over like you keep implying they are? If you're going to claim malicious intent I'd like to know on what grounds.
[QUOTE=draugur;48191723]Taxes, like a normal country. Maybe if they cracked down on tax evasion when they were supposed to that wouldn't be the issue. What exactly does the EU gain from purposely fucking Greece over like you keep implying they are? If you're going to claim malicious intent I'd like to know on what grounds.[/QUOTE]
Because they're heavily in bed with private interests, who they are currently whoring out Greece to.
The blatant systematic tax evasion by the entire country is one big issue, they need to be harder, start giving out fines.
[QUOTE=Orki;48191753]The blatant systematic tax evasion by the entire country is one big issue, they need to be harder, start giving out fines.[/QUOTE]
That's exactly the problem, the lack of any tax evasion reform is evident and is seen to be commonplace by many wealthy & politicians rather than paying their fair share. Everyone else seems to pay their tax, except those previously mentioned. Either Tsipras has to start implementing said policies or it will be a never-ending circle of debt.
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;48191738]Because they're heavily in bed with private interests, who they are currently whoring out Greece to.[/QUOTE]
Alright so then I guess we've reached "big pharma" levels of conspiracy and thus no constructive conversation can be had between the two of us. I'll gladly exit the thread then.
I found Steve Hanke's view of this whole deal to be particularly interesting. He's an economics professor of John Hopkins University.
[URL="http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000394988&play=1"]http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000394988&play=1[/URL]
He basically says take a look at [URL="http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings"]how the World Bank has ranked countries' economies for 2015[/URL]. Out of the 180+ countries in the world, Greece ranks 155 in Contract Enforcement (second to last column), placing them between the Rep. of Congo and Zimbabwe. According to him it's that uncertainty, that lack of credibility that is making reaching a deal so difficult.
[editline]13th July 2015[/editline]
An agreement has been reached. [URL="https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/620486708233129984"]It's confirmed.[/URL]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/FpdoNF2.png[/IMG]
[sp]wait I'm a gold member now what the fuck?[/sp]
Russia will swoop in to save Greece if Greece leaves the EU
I think this whole #ThisIsACoup thing is completely overreacting. Just because of that suggestion? As they repeatedly stated, it's an [B]option[/B], given how Greece has failed to fix its household for the past years and their recent government has constantly demanded the EU's attention for the past five months. I don't know about you guys but I'd be pretty pissed as a finance minister if I had to constantly be called in for a meeting with the Greek ministers because they backed out on yet another agreement and then call me and my colleagues terrorists. Of course the EU's people aren't gonna stay mellow when Greece is finally running out of money and options.
They voted 'no' in that referendum, what did they expect? That they would get a conditionless loan, no strings attached? First they say no, then they suddenly throw a hissyfit when someone actually puts forward the option of a euro exclusion (time-limited, under which they'd still get help)?
They should instead be happy that Germany & Co. is still negotiating and keep their cool. Other EU states are already dropping out of the negotiations, overreacting like this instead of looking at the options and evaluating them in earnest before dismissing them is the way to go here and will prevent the situation from escalating further.
Besides, last the news reported over here, they're actually pretty close to nailing down all the agreements, I think the last major problem right now before a final agreement is the privatisation of certain state-owned assets.
[B]EDIT:[/B] Well, look at that, while I was typing all that the EU already came to an agreement. Thanks, EU :v:
[QUOTE=Selek;48192023]I think this whole #ThisIsACoup thing is completely overreacting. Just because of that suggestion? As they repeatedly stated, it's an [B]option[/B], given how Greece has failed to fix its household for the past years and their recent government has constantly demanded the EU's attention for the past five months. I don't know about you guys but I'd be pretty pissed as a finance minister if I had to constantly be called in for a meeting with the Greek ministers because they backed out on yet another agreement and then call me and my colleagues terrorists. Of course the EU's people aren't gonna stay mellow when Greece is finally running out of money and options.
They voted 'no' in that referendum, what did they expect? That they would get a conditionless loan, no strings attached? First they say no, then they suddenly throw a hissyfit when someone actually puts forward the option of a euro exclusion (time-limited, under which they'd still get help)?
They should instead be happy that Germany & Co. is still negotiating and keep their cool. Other EU states are already dropping out of the negotiations, overreacting like this instead of looking at the options and evaluating them in earnest before dismissing them is the way to go here and will prevent the situation from escalating further.
Besides, last the news reported over here, they're actually pretty close to nailing down all the agreements, I think the last major problem right now before a final agreement is the privatisation of certain state-owned assets.
[B]EDIT:[/B] Well, look at that, while I was typing all that the EU already came to an agreement. Thanks, EU :v:[/QUOTE]
Don't relax just yet. Tsipras still has to pass all the reforms in the greek parlament before Wednesday, and since his insane gamble involved anatgonizing [I]any[/I] austerity measures put fourth by the EU, it will be a challenge to convince everyone that they all of a sudden have to vote yes to this deal, when Tsipras just told them to do the opposite last week.
[QUOTE=draugur;48191600]I hope not. Greece deserves anything that comes at them. Yeah it sucks for the people that didn't cause the problem, but at least this way they'll eventually have a Greece worth living in instead of a corrupt shit hole that bleeds them dry.[/QUOTE]
How do peoople not being able to buy medication they need exavtly "deserve this" ?
[editline]13th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Selek;48192023]I think this whole #ThisIsACoup thing is completely overreacting. Just because of that suggestion? As they repeatedly stated, it's an [B]option[/B], given how Greece has failed to fix its household for the past years and their recent government has constantly demanded the EU's attention for the past five months. I don't know about you guys but I'd be pretty pissed as a finance minister if I had to constantly be called in for a meeting with the Greek ministers because they backed out on yet another agreement and then call me and my colleagues terrorists. Of course the EU's people aren't gonna stay mellow when Greece is finally running out of money and options.
They voted 'no' in that referendum, what did they expect? That they would get a conditionless loan, no strings attached? First they say no, then they suddenly throw a hissyfit when someone actually puts forward the option of a euro exclusion (time-limited, under which they'd still get help)?
They should instead be happy that Germany & Co. is still negotiating and keep their cool. Other EU states are already dropping out of the negotiations, overreacting like this instead of looking at the options and evaluating them in earnest before dismissing them is the way to go here and will prevent the situation from escalating further.
Besides, last the news reported over here, they're actually pretty close to nailing down all the agreements, I think the last major problem right now before a final agreement is the privatisation of certain state-owned assets.
[B]EDIT:[/B] Well, look at that, while I was typing all that the EU already came to an agreement. Thanks, EU :v:[/QUOTE]
It's retarded, undiffrentiated bar-room rhetoric.
[QUOTE=Killuah;48192739]How do peoople not being able to buy medication they need exavtly "deserve this" ?[/QUOTE]
How will this deal make it so greeks can't afford medicine? Remember, one of the reasons that EU was even willing to keep negotiating with Greece was to avoid a situation in which Greece would need humanitarian aid like a third world nation. The political failure of that would be to much for the EU to handle.
I just don't see what the EU would gain from coming up with requirements that would directly stop greeks from getting their medicin, is what I'm saying, considering the hoops they have jumped through to avoid a situation in which Greece got so messed up, that humanitarian aid would be needed.
[QUOTE=Orki;48191753]The blatant systematic tax evasion by the entire country is one big issue, they need to be harder, start giving out fines.[/QUOTE]
For the last two years Greece's tax collection rate was just 4% under the european average. Unless you want to tell me that in that 4% lies the key to absolute economic recovery, this is another of those facepuncher armchair economics. Just collect more taxes, DUH.
I've taken a quick look at the these so called reforms... The most otherworldy is 25% greek state assets will privatized and administered by greek officials (yeah right) under the aegis of the KfW, the [I]Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau[/I], a german bank that has a board comprised exclusively of german state officials, with the head being Schauble himself. This bank is consistently used by Germany to artificially lower their deficit. It's a state bank (meaning it doesn't pay taxes) but gives out loans to anyone, which is basically at the brink of illegality.
So a good 15-20% of Greece's state assets will be effectively managed by another country, and by a private bank of said country, a bank that has been implicated in so many shady dealings in the past that it's a wonder it's still floating. This isn't just an horrid breach of national sovereigneity (and of course someone will come and say [I]they shouldn't have overspent, why couldn't they be responsible[/I]; get out, adults are talking) also shows that the European Union is exclusively tailored towards Germany: of the dozens or so creditors of Greece, Germany is the only one that will directly administer the seized assets. Because they're special, evidently.
[QUOTE=Muggi;48192789]How will this deal make it so greeks can't afford medicine? Remember, one of the reasons that EU was even willing to keep negotiating with Greece was to avoid a situation in which Greece would need humanitarian aid like a third world nation. The political failure of that would be to much for the EU to handle.
I just don't see what the EU would gain from coming up with requirements that would directly stop greeks from getting their medicin, is what I'm saying, considering the hoops they have jumped through to avoid a situation in which Greece got so messed up, that humanitarian aid would be needed.[/QUOTE]
They already can't. Friends of me are there, the media is reporting it, people are already suffering because they only can draw 60€ per day from banks.
Greece has very little options here. They are literally out of money and just bailing them out of their debts would set a very unhealthy precedent (and obviously the organisations which gave out the loans would get fucked).
The greek government also fucked their citizens with false hope by arranging a pointless referendum over whether or not to agree to the austerity program just to realise a small while later that they still had no other options and basically have to ignore the voters after giving them false hope (an extreme credibility defeat for democracy).
edit:
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;48191738]Because they're heavily in bed with private interests, who they are currently whoring out Greece to.[/QUOTE]
Private interests and national interests are often the very same thing even if it doesn't always mean corporate meddling and big business lobbying. The driving forces of a states economy, income and power are it's businesses.
[QUOTE='[IT] Zodiac;48192790']For the last two years Greece's tax collection rate was just 4% under the european average. Unless you want to tell me that in that 4% lies the key to absolute economic recovery, this is another of those facepuncher armchair economics. Just collect more taxes, DUH.
I've taken a quick look at the these so called reforms... The most otherworldy is 25% greek state assets will privatized and administered by greek officials (yeah right) under the aegis of the KfW, the [I]Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau[/I], a german bank that has a board comprised exclusively of german state officials, with the head being Schauble himself. This bank is consistently used by Germany to artificially lower their deficit. It's a state bank (meaning it doesn't pay taxes) but gives out loans to anyone, which is basically at the brink of illegality.
So a good 15-20% of Greece's state assets will be effectively managed by another country, and by a private bank of said country, a bank that has been implicated in so many shady dealings in the past that it's a wonder it's still floating. This isn't just an horrid breach of national sovereigneity (and of course someone will come and say [I]they shouldn't have overspent, why couldn't they be responsible[/I]; get out, adults are talking) also shows that the European Union is exclusively tailored towards Germany: of the dozens or so creditors of Greece, Germany is the only one that will directly administer the seized assets. Because they're special, evidently.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Thanks.
[editline]13th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Falchion;48192831]Greece has very little options here. They are literally out of money and just bailing them out of their debts would set a very unhealthy precedent (and obviously the organisations which gave out the loans would get fucked).
The greek government also fucked their citizens with false hope by arranging a pointless referendum over whether or not to agree to the austerity program just to realise a small while later that they still had no other options and basically have to ignore the voters after giving them false hope (an extreme credibility defeat for democracy).[/QUOTE]
Ireland and Iceland were in a very similar situation. What is evergy and Aluminium industry in Iceland is Tourism in Greece.
They smacked the banks down, told crediters to wait and invested instead of cutting off services that only are used by people in bad situations anyway and look.
[QUOTE=Killuah;48192739]How do peoople not being able to buy medication they need exavtly "deserve this" ?[/QUOTE]
Not going to happen (if the Greek government gets their economy a little more in order).
The EU proposing something that would cause that would be counter-productive to everyone.
It's a ridiculous notion and senseless polemic on your part to even bring it up (repeatedly).
Even if they completely mismanage everything and crash, medication and food are a matter of humanitarian aid that has already been proposed by various political leaders.
This would also happen in case of a "Grexit" though, so no matter how you look at it the talinking point is completely moot here.
If you really wanted to help "the people", you should protest for Greece to apply the economic aid they'll (probably) receive in such a way that it ensures a reasonable security net for their citizens instead of bleeding away into the existing system and towards existing beneficiaries.
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