Israeli John's Hopkins Geneticist Says DNA Results Prove Jewish People Are Not a Single Ethnic Group

[Sokrates]

[IMG]http://forward.com/workspace/assets/images/articles/6elhaik-50513.jpg[/IMG]
[HR][/HR]

[QUOTE]Scientists usually don’t call each other “liars” and “frauds.”But that’s how Johns Hopkins University post-doctoral researcher Eran Elhaik describes a group of widely respected geneticists, including Harry Ostrer, professor of p[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathology"]athology[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics"]genetics[/URL] at Yeshiva University’s [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein_College_of_Medicine"]Albert Einstein College of Medicine[/URL] and author of the 2012 book “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People.”
For years now, the findings of Ostrer and several other scientists have stood virtually unchallenged on the genetics of Jews and the story they tell of the common Middle East origins shared by many Jewish populations worldwide. Jews — and Ashkenazim in particular — are indeed one people, Ostrer’s research finds.

It’s a theory that more or less affirms the understanding that many Jews themselves hold of who they are in the world: a people who, though scattered, share an ethnic-racial bond rooted in their common ancestral descent from the indigenous Jews of ancient Judea or Palestine, as the Romans called it after they conquered the Jewish homeland.

But now, Elhaik, an Israeli molecular geneticist, has published research that he says debunks this claim. And that has set off a predictable clash.

“He’s just wrong,” said Marcus Feldman of Stanford University, a leading researcher in Jewish genetics, referring to Elhaik.

The sometimes strong emotions generated by this scientific dispute stem from a politically loaded question that scientists and others have pondered for decades: Where in the world did Ashkenazi Jews come from?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Read more: [URL]http://forward.com/articles/175912/jews-a-race-genetic-theory-comes-under-fierce-atta/?p=all#ixzz2Smw6lgOj[/URL][/QUOTE]

[Bliblixe]

In short, we just gave a religious group a country because of their religious book?
Here's wishing Israel never existed.

[TH89]

Your thread title is incredibly misleading. Elhaik hasn't made any claims about "claims to Palestine." He's a scientist, not a political commentator. He's also vastly in the minority on this--there are tons and tons of studies that make the opposite claim, but people have been seizing on this one study because it's politically convenient. The very article you linked has several rebuttals from other scientists.

Second, his study only applies to Ashkenazi (European) Jews, who are less than 50% of Israel's Jewish population. The rest are Sefardi (Iberia/North Africa) and Mizrahi (Middle Eastern) Jews, and an assortment of smaller groups whose Levantine genetic lineage is pretty undisputed.

This is like when Creationists find an study that questions one aspect of evolutionary theory and spread it around all like "SCIENTIST DISPROVES EVOLUTION, CHECKMATE ATHETITS"

[mr kjerr]

[QUOTE=Bliblixe;40580313]In short, we just gave a religious group a country because of their religious book?
Here's wishing Israel never existed.[/QUOTE]

yeah, you mean like every other major country ever formed around a single ideal, usually religion?

[TH89]

[QUOTE=Bliblixe;40580313]In short, we just gave a religious group a country because of their religious book?
Here's wishing Israel never existed.[/QUOTE]
No you colossal brick, this has nothing to do with the Tanakh. The historic origin of Judaism is not remotely in question here.

[b]HISTORY LESSON[/b]
Around 300 CE, the Israelites rebelled one too many times against the Romans, who were occupying their land, so the Romans drove them out. There were a series of migrations as the Jews fled to different parts of the world, but there are three main ones:

[b]Mizrahi Jews[/b] fled to nearby countries like Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, etc. They stayed there for the next 2000 years, eventually speaking Judeo-Arabic, a form of Arabic written in the Hebrew alphabet, with Hebrew influences.

[b]Sefardi Jews[/b] fled to the Iberian Peninsula (Spain, Portugal) and North Africa (most notably Morocco) and were an important part of Moorish Spain, an Islamic civilization. Later, Spain became a Christian country, and the Spanish Inquisition forced most Sefardi Jews to either convert or flee the country. Many fled to various places, like the Caribbean (some of my family are Sefardim from Kingston) and a bunch went to the Netherlands, which has a significant Sefardi population to this day. However, the Nazis practically wiped out what remained of the Sefardi Jews in Europe, and they are hard to find these days. They traditionally spoke Ladino/Judezmo, which is a form of Spanish written in the Hebrew alphabet, with Hebrew influences (for example, the grammar and word order is the same as Hebrew, just with Spanish words instead. it's weird).

[b]Ashkenazi Jews[/b] fled to the Rhineland area of Germany, beginning a long history of brutal persecution, mass killings, and ghettoization in Medieval Europe. After a while they were kicked out of Germany, spread throughout Eastern Europe, then were driven out of Eastern Europe again, and so on and so forth. At the time of the rise of the Nazis, Germany was considered one of the most Jewish-friendly countries in Europe, with many of them having largely assimilated into German society. Then Hitler came and persuaded their neighbors to massacre them, which is a pretty significant part of why Jews feel uncomfortable about even low-level antisemitism. Most Jews in America and Europe are Ashkenazi, and a little less than half of Israeli Jews are. They traditionally speak Yiddish, which is a form of German written in the Hebrew alphabet and with Hebrew influences.

So.

Most genetic studies have shown that all three of these populations have genetic markers that can be traced back to the Middle East, specifically the area of the Levant (Israel, Lebanon, Syria). They have also shown that all three of these populations have more genetically in common with each other than they do with surrounding non-Jewish populations. The general consensus is that that is the case. A lot of Ashkenazi Jews look fairly white, but then so do a lot of [url=http://www.matthimes.com/images/ingymosque.JPG]Arabs[/url]. A lot of Ashkenazi Jews could pass for Arabs pretty easily ([url=http://www.jewishjournal.com/images/bloggers/fp_goldblum-seminar_091412_584.jpg]1[/url], [url=http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/Ke/sacha-baron-cohen-0809-lg.jpg]2[/url]). There's always a diversity of genes in any population, and so in each of the three there's inevitably some intermixing with local populations, which is why Ashkenazi Jews look a little whiter, Sefardim look a little more Spanish or African, Mizrahim look a little more Arab. In the case of Ashkenazim, Europeans raping Jewish women was horrifically common, which is actually the origin of the rule about Jewishness being passed matrilineally--Jewish communities didn't want the rape babies to be ostracized with no place to go, so they adopted them officially into the Tribe. That's why many--but, again, not all--Ashkenazi Jews are lighter in complexion and often pass as "white people." In America, which doesn't have nearly the history of antisemitism that Europe does, Ashkenazim are a lot more likely to flat-out be considered white people, and many identify as such.

[b]The Khazar Theory[/b]

However, there has been a theory floating around for a good while that Ashkenazi Jews are not descended from the original Jews, but from members of the Khazars, a Turkic empire. This theory has gained traction among various groups of antisemites because, if true, it would mean that Ashkenazi Jews (who most people in America and Europe think are the only type of Jews) are not descendants of the original population, and therefore have no claim to the region or religion. It fits in nicely with a bunch of traditional antisemitic cliches like Jews being liars and tricksters, and also makes pretty great political fodder for people who want to argue that Jews have no heritage in Israel/Palestine and therefore the state of Israel is illegitimate.

The "Khazar Theory" has been subject to a number of critiques. First and foremost is the one that most genetic studies simply don't support it. Second is the fact that the Khazars did not actually convert [i]en masse[/i] to Judaism. Some of the leaders did, but it was fairly limited as Judaism is not and has never been an evangelical religion. Jews don't try to convert people, and if people WANT to convert, it's a long and difficult process.

So that's the background for this--it's an interesting contribution to the discussion, but you all should be aware that there is a preponderance of evidence and scientific agreement [i]against[/i] what Elhaik is saying here, and this one dissenting study is being given a disproportionate amount of credence and exposure for highly political reasons.

[editline]9th May 2013[/editline]

And that's the story of how I stayed up until 4 AM the week before finals to yell at the internet

[OutspokenGolf]

[QUOTE=TH89;40580501]words[/QUOTE]

okay

[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Why reply" - Orkel))[/highlight]

[TH89]

sry

I think it was the combination of "heh, [i]religion[/i] 8)" Internet Atheist smugness and total wrongness about Actual Facts that made me need to type a lot of words

[Van-man]

[QUOTE=TH89;40580580]sry

I think it was the combination of "heh, [i]religion[/i] 8)" Internet Atheist smugness and total wrongness about Actual Facts that made me need to type a lot of words[/QUOTE]

We know how trigger happy you are regarding such things.
I felt your wrath a few times back when you were still a moderator.

[ZomboJoe]

I find it interesting.

[TH89]

Oh good. Here's some Hebrew music (it gets p. tight at 1:55)

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgI_b8Wbw0E[/media]

Edit: People really hate this post for some reason. I am sorry it did not please you

[POLOPOZOZO]

solid thread title

but I'm guessing even if you didn't include that last bit that's where the thread would immediately head to

[Provost]

On the flip side, this also means that they never had claim to being Untermenschen.

[Zeke129]

[QUOTE=TH89;40580580]sry

I think it was the combination of "heh, [i]religion[/i] 8)" Internet Atheist smugness and total wrongness about Actual Facts that made me need to type a lot of words[/QUOTE]

if [b][i]THE JEWS[/i][/b] get their own country then why cant us educated atheists get our own country

checkmate

[hypno-toad]

Saying the Jewish have a rightful claim to Israel because the romans destroyed their kingdoms and displaced their people before arabs moved in would be like saying the breton and cornish people have a right to resettle england en-mass because the romans destroyed the integrity of their kingdoms before scandinavian migration forced a lot of the populace out. The second parable sounds absurd, so why is the Israeli cause supported so readily? Purporting a multi-millenia old claim to land is not a valid excuse to evict the current population.

[sambooo]

[QUOTE=Zeke129;40582362]if [b][i]THE JEWS[/i][/b] get their own country then why cant us educated atheists get our own country

checkmate[/QUOTE]

athiests have Iran

[Angus725]

[QUOTE=Zeke129;40582362]if [b][i]THE JEWS[/i][/b] get their own country then why cant us educated atheists get our own country

checkmate[/QUOTE]

Communist countries?

[TH89]

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;40582570]Saying the Jewish have a rightful claim to Israel because the romans destroyed their kingdoms and displaced their people before arabs moved in would be like saying the breton and cornish people have a right to resettle england en-mass because the romans destroyed the integrity of their kingdoms before scandinavian migration forced a lot of the populace out. The second parable sounds absurd, so why is the Israeli cause supported so readily? Purporting a multi-millenia old claim to land is not a valid excuse to evict the current population.[/QUOTE]
There's a couple things that's different here. One is that Jews have suffered active and severe persecutionfor pretty much the entire timespan. I have no idea how even to distinguish a Cornish person today, and I don't think they're discriminated against and in particular their right to live and to belong in England is never questioned.

The other part is that a longing return to Israel has been a pretty central part of the Jewish cultural narrative since the expulsions. Prayers end with "next year in Jerusalem," there's a lot of talk about a return to Zion, etc. That's not stuff that's associated with the modern Zionist movement, it's been around forever.

Now, I agree 100% agree that nothing justifies the displacement of the Palestinians--they SHOULD have been able to live together peaceably and respectfully, and a lot of early settlers wanted to do that. But a combination of a lot of British mismanagement of the situation that created and exacerbated conflict, and no small amount of Orientalist arrogance the Ashkenazi Zionist leaders had picked up during their time in Europe, things went really badly and there's a lot of pieces to be picked up now.

Another thing, though, is that the DNA argument, while something of a compelling one insofar as it establishes the factual basis for that cultural Zionism I mentioned earlier, is not the only thing on which the modern Zionist movement rests. The Ethiopian Beta Israel, for example, have been genetically shown to be converts, but Israel accepts them as Jews. Even if the Ashkenazim were genetically Turks, it wouldn't erase their persecution and danger faced in Europe or their devotion to their way of life.

[EmperorScorpious]

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;40582570]Saying the Jewish have a rightful claim to Israel because the romans destroyed their kingdoms and displaced their people before arabs moved in would be like saying the breton and cornish people have a right to resettle england en-mass because the romans destroyed the integrity of their kingdoms before scandinavian migration forced a lot of the populace out. The second parable sounds absurd, so why is the Israeli cause supported so readily? Purporting a multi-millenia old claim to land is not a valid excuse to evict the current population.[/QUOTE]

Their "we once owned this land centuries ago" isn't the only reason they colonize the area. They wanted their own state as well and early on there were other suggestions on where to go, the end goal being "a state", not necessarily "a state in Palestine".

No, the Palestinians should not be forced off to live stateless but so too should Jews have the right to self determination. Though they've botched up any chance at good relations with their self determination, it doesn't negate that right.

[DainBramageStud]

so by OP's logic, if the ashkenazim had in fact turned out to be descended from the original inhabitants of palestine, they would in fact have a legitimate claim to it nowadays?

careful when you make this kind of moral judgment from empirical evidence - if you're wrong then you can't keep endorsing the same moral position

[person12]

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;40583029]Their "we once owned this land centuries ago" isn't the only reason they colonize the area. They wanted their own state as well and early on there were other suggestions on where to go, the end goal being "a state", not necessarily "a state in Palestine".

No, the Palestinians should not be forced off to live stateless but so too should Jews have the right to self determination. Though they've botched up any chance at good relations with their self determination, it doesn't negate that right.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. While ill be the first to condemn Israel's actions, I'll also he the first to point out that this issue is not about Jews anymore, but the nationalism of Israeli people.

I would also like to point out that this all started when Jews showed up in Palestine, and as far as I can tell, did not fuck anything up until the UN gave them land and the Arab world attacked them. The UN, and especially The UK, should be blamed for this mess. First for being anti semetic enough to not want the Jewish people in their own countries, and for promising Palestine to both the indigenous people and the Jewish people at the same time.

Israel angers me, but so do the people who attack Israel and Jews with no regard to history or evidence. It's a complicated story with no good guys.

[Bliblixe]

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;40583029]Their "we once owned this land centuries ago" isn't the only reason they colonize the area. They wanted their own state as well and early on there were other suggestions on where to go, the end goal being "a state", not necessarily "a state in Palestine".

No, the Palestinians should not be forced off to live stateless but so too should Jews have the right to self determination. Though they've botched up any chance at good relations with their self determination, it doesn't negate that right.[/QUOTE]

Well then how about we declare Texas is no more and put Israel there? The "we once owned this land" arguement is really important.

[ma21212]

FIY for all the ppl who thought they were, the Jews and Arabs are the same ppl.

[1nfiniteseed]

What difference does it make whether or not they have a claim to the levant when millions of them are already there under an established state?

[yawmwen]

even if jews all had the same ethnicity or w/e it doesn't mean they have claim to a piece of land. using someone's lineage to designate land ownership is something from medieval times. it's not really valid anymore.

[editline]9th May 2013[/editline]

and i always learned "ethnicity" has more to do with culture and language than genetic lineage, which many jews do share to a certain extent whether they are european or middle eastern or african.

[editline]9th May 2013[/editline]

[QUOTE=Bliblixe;40583421]Well then how about we declare Texas is no more and put Israel there? The "we once owned this land" arguement is really important.[/QUOTE]

only in the sense that displacement of anyone should be considered immoral. it isn't "we once owned the land", it's "these people lived here and now you are moving them away". ancestral homeland or w/e means nothing. the living take priority.

[TH89]

[QUOTE=1nfiniteseed;40585139]What difference does it make whether or not they have a claim to the levant when millions of them are already there under an established state?[/QUOTE]

Practically speaking, none, except that people who don't like them get to feel good about it a little more.

[Zuimzado]

And here we go, down the torpedo hole.

[redhaven]

[QUOTE=1nfiniteseed;40585139]What difference does it make whether or not they have a claim to the levant when millions of them are already there under an established state?[/QUOTE]
True. It is done and over. There is an Israel, whether the genetic claim is a lie or not.

Israel was a mistake during the Cold War, but today, 2013, the state has every right to exist.

[person12]

It was a mistake since it was borne out of a "none of us want to deal with these Jewish refugees, so lets give them a country, fuck whoever lives there, we won't ask them"

[Xystus234]

The funny thing about this study is he compared their genetics to Armenians and Georgians, not to Kazhars. Armenia and Georgia are right smack in the center of the middle east. Armenia has been around for 2000+ years, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Apostolic_Church"]has the world's oldest surviving Abrahamic church[/URL], and both have existed since... well around the time that the Jews lived in Ancient Israel.

[QUOTE]Elhaik compared “genetic signatures” found in Jewish populations with those of modern-day Armenians and Georgians, which he uses as a stand-in for the long-extinct Khazarians because they live in the same area as the medieval state.[/QUOTE]

So if they tested European Jews and found that they match to people who have already lived in the middle east for thousands of years...

The funny thing is he's claiming the opposite of his own results.

Go figure. Probably because he's half Iranian.

[supersnail11]

[QUOTE=Xystus234;40587756]Go figure. Probably because he's half Iranian.[/QUOTE]

Uhh...