Bernie Sanders— the only Jewish candidate— accused of antisemitism by top Israeli official
116 replies, posted
[IMG]https://ocjewishexperience.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/israeli-us-ambassador-michel-oren2.jpg[/IMG]
Micheal Oren is a prominent Israeli official, having been nominated by Netanyahu to serve as the Israeli-ambassador to America
[thumb]http://hitshowstowatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CBS-S2-Portraits-800x600_Hamlin_0159_V2-800x600.jpg[/thumb]
Howard Hamlin is a fictional character from the Breaking Bad spin off, Better Call Saul.
[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/04/07/israeli-politician-accuses-bernie-sanders-of-blood-libel/[/URL]
[URL="http://europe.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-accused-blood-libel-over-wrong-gaza-casualty-figures-444968?rm=eu"]http://europe.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-accused-blood-libel-over-wrong-gaza-casualty-figures-444968?rm=eu
[/URL]
[quote]
“Israel will make their own decisions. They are a government, an independent nation. [B]But to the degree that they want us to have a positive relationship, I think they’re going to have to improve their relationship with the Palestinians[/B],” he said.[/quote]
[quote]Sanders, the only Jewish presidential candidate in the race, was trying to make a larger point about the many costs of the unresolved Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
"My understanding is that a whole lot of apartment houses were leveled. Hospitals, I think, were bombed. So yeah, I do believe and [B]I don't think I'm alone in believing that Israel's force was more indiscriminate than it should have been[/B]," he said. He added: “[B]I don't have it in my number… but I think it's over 10,000.[/B]"
A former Israeli ambassador to the U.S. on Thursday accused U.S. Democratic candidate Bernie Sanders of the [U][B]ancient “blood libel” smear used against Jews[/B][/U] after he incorrectly stated that Israel had killed 10,000 Palestinian civilians in the 2014 Gaza conflict.
Michael Oren, now an Israeli lawmaker, criticized the socialist candidate and accused him of endangering Israel’s security with his comments in a recent interview with the [URL="http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/transcript-bernie-sanders-meets-news-editorial-board-article-1.2588306"][I] New York Daily News[/I][/URL] in which the Vermont senator overestimated the Palestinian civilian death toll in Gaza by more than 8,000.
“[B]First of all, he should get his facts right. Secondly, he owes Israel an apology[/B],” Oren told [URL="http://www.timesofisrael.com/mk-oren-sanders-should-apologize-for-gaza-blood-libel/"][I] The Times of Israel[/I][/URL]. “[B]He accused us of a blood libel. He accused us of bombing hospitals. He accused us of killing 10,000 Palestinian civilians. Don’t you think that merits an apology?[/B]”[/quote]
Micheal Oren later went on to accuse Bernie Sanders of attempting to "endanger the security of Israel"
[quote]“That’s legitimate in discourse. What’s not legitimate in discourse is to lie, and to lie in ways that are libelous about Israel and [B]which, in fact, endanger Israel’s security[/B].”[/quote]
Oren then says that Bernie's remarks pose a "far more serious challenge than Hamas rockets," which Oren incorrectly refers to as 'missiles'
[quote]“Because delegitimization is a strategic threat to us. It’s not a tactical threat. [B]The bitter irony of this is that Hamas missiles are a tactical threat,” while senior US politicians making libelous statements about Israel are a far more serious challeng[/B]e, he argued.[/quote]
Whatever the threshold may be for "endangering Israel's security" it is artificially-low as seen in the last conflict. By keeping it low, you get to kill more people by accusing them of 'threatening Israel' so no surprise that Sanders is being grouped among those who genuinely endanger the security of Israel.
he doesnt need to apologize if hes telling the truth tho
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Didn't read" - Starpluck))[/highlight]
Bernie Sanders did incorrectly say 10,000 civilians were killed.
United Nations:
[quote]2,104 Palestinians were killed in Gaza, including 1,462 civilians, among them 495 children and 253 women. Those U.N. numbers would mean that 69 percent of the total killed were civilians. [B][7 in 10 people killed by Israel were innocent civilians[/B]][/quote]
That figure- 7 in 10, is more damning than whatever the death toll Israel yields in Gaza. Whether it was 1,000 or 10,000 people dead overall, it is the fact that 7 in 10 civilians were indiscriminately targeted by IDF is what makes it so damning. Not some arbitrary "8,000 number" that Bernie used.
How did he accuse them of the 'blood libel'? Though it was pretty bad being that wrong on the figures, this is a massive overreaction.
Though I would stop referring to him as 'the only Jewish candidate' in the race. He isn't religiously practicing and as far as I can tell, never identifies himself as Jewish or considers himself to be ethnically/culturally Jewish either.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50093419]How did he accuse them of the 'blood libel'? Though it was pretty bad being that wrong on the figures, this is a massive overreaction.
Though I would stop referring to him as 'the only Jewish candidate' in the race. He isn't religiously practicing and as far as I can tell, never identifies himself as Jewish or considers himself to be ethnically/culturally Jewish either.[/QUOTE]
Actually, in a debate he was asked if he believes faith is important and he said yes, and added that he is jewish and proud of it.
I just looked it up, and yes, you are correct. Interesting, given I have seen reports saying the opposite as well.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50093462]I just looked it up, and yes, you are correct. Interesting, given I have seen reports saying the opposite as well.[/QUOTE]
The reports are usually referring to the fact that he is completely secular when it comes to policy making.
do you guys ever wonder why israeli officials act the way they do?
do you guys ever ask yourself how, in a supposed region-leading democracy, people almost appear to be completely brainwashed?
More like anti-zionist. Not a surprise that they would put that on the same level as antisemitism.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50093529]do you guys ever wonder why israeli officials act the way they do?
do you guys ever ask yourself how, in a supposed region-leading democracy, people almost appear to be completely brainwashed?[/QUOTE]
I just wonder why I have to literally give a portion of my paycheck to a state that I couldn't care less about.
[QUOTE=RaptorJGW;50093534]More like anti-zionist. Not a surprise that they would put that on the same level as antisemitism.[/QUOTE]
An 'anti-Zionist' would mean you don't believe in Jewish nationalism, meaning you don't think that the state of Israel should exist. Sanders is most certainly, in what I consider the actual meaning of 'Zionism' rather than just 'Israeli meanies', not an 'anti-Zionist'. True 'anti-Zionists' usually are anti-Semites as a result.
Bernie's jewish by blood but abandoned the religion. For example, instead of going to synagogue on Rosh Hashana, he held a campaign rally. Also, how can you accuse israel of being indiscriminate when independent analysis shows that the people who were most likely to be Hamas fighters are overwhelmingly represented in the death counts?
[QUOTE]An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided."
"At the same time, women and children under 15, the least likely to be legitimate targets, were the most underrepresented, making up 71% of the population and 33% of the known-age casualties."[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28688179"]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28688179[/URL]
And this is ignoring the efforts that Israel does to drop leaflets, calling people whose houses are going to be bombed to warn them, roof knocking to scare away people who decided to stay, and sometimes even calling off airstrikes on enemy targets due to too many civilians around
The top military official in the US actually praised Israel on the lengths it went to to stop civilian casualties.
[QUOTE]General Dempsey said the underground tunnel networks used by militant groups in Gaza "caused the IDF some significant challenges", but said that in his opinion Israelis "did some extraordinary things to limit civilian casualties".
He also confirmed that the US had sent a team from the Defence Department to Israel in recent months to see what military lessons could be learned from Operation Protective Edge - the 50-day war in Gaza that raged in July and August this year.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://news.sky.com/story/1368654/us-general-backs-israels-tactics-in-gaza-war"]http://news.sky.com/story/1368654/us-general-backs-israels-tactics-in-gaza-war[/URL]
I know you love to push the narrative of the evil Israelis killing poor innocent Palestinians whose only crime was to indiscriminately shoot rockets at civilian centers in Israel, teaching their kids to hate Jews, and using civilians as human shields but look at the facts.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50093573]Bernie's jewish by blood but abandoned the religion.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't mean someone is or isn't jewish. Jewish isn't a monolithic religion anymore, there are plenty of people who would identify as Jewish by faith and not follow all rituals or procedures. Religions evolve.
Being Jewish is as much an ethnic identity as a religious one, though.
[QUOTE=Aztec;50093544]I just wonder why I have to literally give a portion of my paycheck to a state that I couldn't care less about.[/QUOTE]
Most of the US's aid to Israel are vouchers for companies such as Raytheon. If it wasn't given to Israel, it would be spent anyway. The US only gives a few hundred million in direct cash to Israel and that's maybe one cent at most off of your paycheck. You don't pay taxes to give to Israel, you pay taxes to maintain the government.
[editline]8th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Aztec;50093583]That doesn't mean someone is or isn't jewish. Jewish isn't a monolithic religion anymore, there are plenty of people who would identify as Jewish by faith and not follow all rituals or procedures. Religions evolve.[/QUOTE]
Being Jewish is also an ethnic thing. Religiously, he's considered Jewish because his mom is Jewish. You can be the world's most fanatic atheist but if your mom is jewish, you're considered jewish.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50093558]An 'anti-Zionist' would mean you don't believe in Jewish nationalism, meaning you don't think that the state of Israel should exist. Sanders is most certainly, in what I consider the actual meaning of 'Zionism' rather than just 'Israeli meanies', not an 'anti-Zionist'. True 'anti-Zionists' usually are anti-Semites as a result.[/QUOTE]
What do you consider to be the "actual meaning of Zionism" then? (And anti-Zionism for the matter) It doesn't seem that people are entirely on the same map regarding that.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50093600]
Being Jewish is also an ethnic thing. Religiously, he's considered Jewish because his mom is Jewish. You can be the world's most fanatic atheist but if your mom is jewish, you're considered jewish.[/QUOTE]
I'm aware, but I don't think he's necessarily abandoned the Jewish faith either, he just isn't a seriously devoute Jew.
[QUOTE=Talishmar;50093621]What do you consider to be the "actual meaning of Zionism" then? (And anti-Zionism for the matter) It doesn't seem that people are entirely on the same map regarding that.[/QUOTE]
Basically, Zionism is the belief that the Jewish people should have their own self-governed country in their ancestral homeland.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50093600]Most of the US's aid to Israel are vouchers for companies such as Raytheon. If it wasn't given to Israel, it would be spent anyway. [B]The US only gives a few hundred million in direct cash to Israel and that's maybe one cent at most off of your paycheck.[/B] You don't pay taxes to give to Israel, you pay taxes to maintain the government.
[/QUOTE]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid#Recipients[/url]
Israel almost received 3 BILLION dollars worth of economic and military aid in 2013.
That's not "a couple hundred million".
[QUOTE=Aztec;50093627]I'm aware, but I don't think he's necessarily abandoned the Jewish faith either, he just isn't a seriously devoute Jew.[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between being not a seriously devoted Jew and not coming for the High holidays. Even the most unobservant Jews come to the High Holiday services
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50093600]
Being Jewish is also an ethnic thing. Religiously, he's considered Jewish because his mom is Jewish. You can be the world's most fanatic atheist but if your mom is jewish, you're considered jewish.[/QUOTE]
In America, he's considered white because it's his skin color and no one here cares about where they came from in the Old World. If he's non-practicing, he can barely be considered Jewish in the US.
My family came from Germany in the late 1800s, does this mean I'm German because on occasion I drink beer and eat cabbage? No.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50093647]There's a difference between being not a seriously devoted Jew and not coming for the High holidays. Even the most unobservant Jews come to the High Holiday services[/QUOTE]
I'll agree with you if you are telling me that 100% of all religious Jews go to all services all the time with no exceptions ever.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;50093638][url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid#Recipients[/url]
Israel almost received 3 BILLION dollars worth of economic and military aid in 2013.
That's not "a couple hundred million".[/QUOTE]
Most of that money is military aid which can only be spent on the military. It doesn't come in liquid cash, it comes in vouchers. I specifically said direct cash.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50093694]Most of that money is military aid which can only be spent on the military. It doesn't come in liquid cash, it comes in vouchers. I specifically said direct cash.[/QUOTE]
Why do you think it being military aid makes it somehow better?
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;50093638][url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid#Recipients[/url]
Israel almost received 3 BILLION dollars worth of economic and military aid in 2013.
That's not "a couple hundred million".[/QUOTE]
but it's still about a few cents off of your paycheck
[editline]8th April 2016[/editline]
this is a really stupid way of looking at financial support but alright
[QUOTE=Aztec;50093699]Why do you think it being military aid makes it somehow better?[/QUOTE]
Because the vouchers are for American weapons manufacturers. The companies benefit from the vouchers, the Israelis benefit from the vouchers. It's like a regular handout to weapons companies but with a step in the middle
[QUOTE=Melnek;50093719]but it's still about a few cents off of your paycheck
[editline]8th April 2016[/editline]
this is a really stupid way of looking at financial support but alright[/QUOTE]
I don't think anyone actually thinks it's more than a few cents, it's the fact that I'm forced to endorse a complete waste of money when we have much more pressing economic issues at home.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50093573]Bernie's jewish by blood but abandoned the religion. For example, instead of going to synagogue on Rosh Hashana he held a campaign rally[/QUOTE]
What does this have to do with anything?
[quote]Also, how can you accuse israel of being indiscriminate when independent analysis shows that the people who were most likely to be Hamas fighters are overwhelmingly represented in the death counts?
[URL]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28688179[/URL][/quote]
There numerous, countless factors for those figures.
[quote]Many factors could have contributed to high fatality numbers among men aged 20 to 29.
Jana Krause, from the war studies department at Kings College London, says: "A potential explanation other than combatant roles could be that families expect them to be the first ones to leave shelters in order to care for hurt relatives, gather information, look after abandoned family homes or arrange food and water.
"Similar to combatant roles, [B]these would be 'high-risk' social roles that young men are often expected to fulfil."
[/B]
[B]She stressed that more work would be needed[/B] on the ground to determine why this group was over-represented in the casualty figures.
[B]Men of this age may also be mistaken for fighters[/B] because they fit the age profile.[/quote]
[quote]And this is ignoring the efforts that Israel does to drop leaflets, calling people whose houses are going to be bombed to warn them, roof knocking to scare away people who decided to stay, and sometimes even calling off airstrikes on enemy targets due to too many civilians around[/quote]
None of this means anything. In the densely-packed Gaza with no where to go, a 15 minute "bomb" warning does nothing.
It is a tactic to shift the discussion to "Where they legitimate targets for Israel to bomb?" to "Did Israel warn the occupants beforehand that they were going to bomb then?" It is a red herring device and means nothing. If the target was illegitimate, it does not matter if Israel drops a "courtesy-leaflet" warning of impending deconstruction 15 minutes prior. Dropping such a leaflet does not make the target, suddenly become legitimate.
International activists from around the world recognized this fact when Israel tried to do the same to a hospital.
[URL]http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.604567[/URL]
International Activists Staying at Gaza Hospital the IDF Plans to Bomb
[quote][B]14 patients, men and women over the age of 60 that cannot be moved remain hospitalized at Gaza's only rehabilitation hospital.[/B][/quote]
What difference do these leaflets make if there are people who are bedridden inside hospitals and cannot move at all? Why do these 15 minute warnings make you perceive Israel so heavenly? It is a propaganda move to assuage international concerns, nothing more.
You could have someone who is immobile and can't leave his house or hospital. But as long as Israel "warns" them before they rain down missiles, all seems alright to you. You appear to be easily gullible, buying into Israeli-narratives swiftly without any such critical though.
[quote]The top military official in the US actually praised Israel on the lengths it went to to stop civilian casualties.
[URL]http://news.sky.com/story/1368654/us-general-backs-israels-tactics-in-gaza-war[/URL][/quote]
An American military official praises Israel. Why does America's unwavering support (that no other nation in the world can compare to) surprise you so much? Why is America suddenly credible on Israel? They are not.
[editline]8th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50093694]Most of that money is military aid which can only be spent on the military. It doesn't come in liquid cash, it comes in vouchers. I specifically said direct cash.[/QUOTE]
So America is gifting Israel $3 billion, so Israel can buy stuff from America?
How is this any better to you?
[QUOTE=Melnek;50093719]but it's still about a few cents off of your paycheck
[editline]8th April 2016[/editline]
this is a really stupid way of looking at financial support but alright[/QUOTE]
Whats really stupid is taking my tax money, no matter how large or small, to support your country and the shitty things it does and excuse it away as if it's nothing.
[QUOTE=Aztec;50093735]I don't think anyone actually thinks it's more than a few cents, it's the fact that I'm forced to endorse a complete waste of money when we have much more pressing economic issues at home.[/QUOTE]
For the same reason every single other American is forced to endorse things they don't want to via tax spending.
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