[QUOTE]A new campaign led by medical professionals is calling for all diesel cars to be banned from London.
Doctors Against Diesel claim 9,400 Londoners a year die prematurely from breathing in toxic fumes from diesel engines.
Paris, Madrid, Mexico City and Athens have committed to a ban on diesel vehicles by 2025.
Opponents to the campaign have called the proposals "impractical" and warned a blanket ban could "backfire".
...
A spokesman for the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) said the industry is investing "billions" to reduce emissions and the latest diesel cars are the "cleanest in history".
[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38274792[/url]
More V8s to replace them? Gotta get that low-end grunt somewhere...
While I don't doubt people die from air pollution I am becoming increasingly sceptical of the amounts of people supposedly killed.
The latest EU report on 2.5PM to me seems to use the linear no-threshold model to calculate fatalities at very low levels from data found at very high levels under the assumption that no amount is safe. I can't find it out exactly however as the report is somewhat muddled and they don't appear to explain their methodology.
[QUOTE=download;51508322]While I don't doubt people die from air pollution I am becoming increasingly sceptical of the amounts of people supposedly killed.
The latest EU report on 2.5PM to me seems to use the linear no-threshold model to calculate fatalities at very low levels from data found at very high levels under the assumption that no amount is safe. I can't find it out exactly however as the report is somewhat muddled and they don't appear to explain their methodology.[/QUOTE]
Air pollution causes a LOT of issues with human health according to the EEAs 2016 air quality report. So it's hard to put an exact figure on it since we have only really started looking at it over the past decade or so.
Copy and paste from the report for other people that may have not read it:
[QUOTE]1.3 Effects of air pollution
1.3.1 Human health
Air pollution is the single largest environmental health risk in Europe; recent estimates suggest that the disease burden resulting from air pollution is substantial (Lim et al., 2012; WHO, 2014a). Heart disease and stroke are the most common reasons for premature death attributable to air pollution and are responsible for 80•% of cases of premature death; lung diseases and lung cancer follow (WHO, 2014a). In addition to causing premature death, air pollution increases the incidence of a wide range of diseases (e.g. respiratory and cardiovascular diseases and cancer), with both long- and short-term health effects. The International Agency for Research on Cancer has classified air pollution in general, as well as particulate matter (PM) as a separate component of air pollution mixtures, as carcinogenic (IARC, 2013).
Emerging literature (WHO, 2005, 2013a) shows that air pollution has been associated with health impacts on fertility, pregnancy, and new-borns and children. These include negative effects on neural development and cognitive capacities, which in turn can affect performance at school and later in life, leading to lower productivity and quality of life. There is also emerging evidence that exposure to air pollution is associated with new-onset type 2 diabetes in adults, and may be linked to obesity and dementia (RCP, 2016, and references therein).
While air pollution is harmful to all populations, some people suffer more because they live in polluted areas and are exposed to higher levels of air pollution, or they are more vulnerable to the health problems caused by air pollution.
The proportion of the population affected by less severe health impacts is much larger than the proportion of the population affected by more serious health impacts (e.g. those leading to premature deaths). In spite of this, it is the severe outcomes (such as increased risk of mortality and reduced life expectancy) that are most often considered in epidemiological studies and health-risk analyses, because there are usually better data available for the severe effects (EEA, 2013a).
While this report focuses on only ambient (outdoor) air quality, indoor air pollution also poses considerable impacts on health (Lim et al., 2012; WHO, 2013a; RCP, 2016) and is greatly affected by outdoor air pollution.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Morgen;51508346]Air pollution causes a LOT of issues with human health according to the EEAs 2016 air quality report. So it's hard to put an exact figure on it since we have only really started looking at it over the past decade or so.
Copy and paste from the report for other people that may have not read it:[/QUOTE]
That doesn't address my issue of them probably using the linear no-threshold model to predict fatalities.
The EU study says they didn't use a cutoff concentration for 2.5PM.
[editline]11th December 2016[/editline]
It's something I'll have to carefully examine at some point in time.
But... arent most vans lorry's diesel powered, thats a lot of trade vehicles you gotta ban :v:
[QUOTE=TestECull;51508302]More V8s to replace them? Gotta get that low-end grunt somewhere...[/QUOTE]
Electric motors have max torque at standstill, and they don't emit cancer
All we need now are better batteries, then we can shove the V8s
[QUOTE=MadBomber;51508467]But... arent most vans lorry's diesel powered, thats a lot of trade vehicles you gotta ban :v:[/QUOTE]
Yes, 99% of commercial vehicles are diesel according to SMNT:
[QUOTE]The spokesman said: "Diesel makes a vital contribution to our everyday lives fuelling some 99% of the UK's commercial vehicles, which transport essential goods and our emergency services."
[/QUOTE]
The UK government has incentivized diesel for a long time (thanks for that labour).
diesel is worse than other gasoline? didn't know that..
[QUOTE=MadBomber;51508467]But... arent most vans lorry's diesel powered, thats a lot of trade vehicles you gotta ban :v:[/QUOTE]
The problem isn't really with vans. It's with common passenger cars with Diesel engines that everyone and their dog has, from tiny hatchbacks to family sedans.
[editline]11th December 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Giraffen93;51508541]diesel is worse than other gasoline? didn't know that..[/QUOTE]
Diesels emit less carbon dioxide, but they emit far more particulate matter (while petrol has insignificant emissions of it) and nitrogen oxides. Carbon dioxide won't directly kill you, but the latter two absolutely will.
[editline]11th December 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=TestECull;51508302]More V8s to replace them? Gotta get that low-end grunt somewhere...[/QUOTE]
Haha funny. My car's inline six hits peak torque far lower than most V8s do. It has more to do with undersquare/oversquare design, valve and ignition timing etc.
Why not replace every car with those "green", environmentally-friendly ones? Or would that not work? :v:
[QUOTE=Trumple;51508480]Electric motors have max torque at standstill, and they don't emit cancer
All we need now are better batteries, then we can shove the V8s[/QUOTE]
They got fuckall range compared to a diesel truck though.
And transport companies ain't gonna be thrilled with the idea of having to offload products from one vehicle to another to comply with this.
It'll make transporting it much more expensive, and as a result, driving up the price of products.
And battery tech is pretty much at a standstill, because it needs to be cheap, reliable, safe and not polluting the fuck out of the environment when produced.
[QUOTE=FreyasFighter;51508568]Why not replace every car with those "green", environmentally-friendly ones? Or would that not work? :v:[/QUOTE]
Nah. Just replace the diesels with petrols and that's enough to substantially improve air quality.
[QUOTE=BF;51508629]Nah. Just replace the diesels with petrols and that's enough to substantially improve air quality.[/QUOTE]
Certainly helps but I think with the ULEZ coming to London in the next few years and the city generally pushing for tighter rules every year on emissions that a lot of people would at least get a hybrid if possible.
So what if you are really poor and the only car you have is a diesel car?
Saw BBC news run a short video on this on TV this morning, they were talking about emissions killing people whilst most of their video clips were of exhausts emitting water vapour because of cold starts.
[QUOTE=Amakir;51508817]So what if you are really poor and the only car you have is a diesel car?[/QUOTE]
Simply going by gas prices here, I can't really imagine that someone "really poor" would be in a financial state to buy a car that requires gas that's a good $.50/gal more in some places, unless it's for work, for example, in which case I'd imagine the company they work for to be able to make reparations.
[QUOTE=Zoran;51508925]Simply going by gas prices here, I can't really imagine that someone "really poor" would be in a financial state to buy a car that requires gas that's a good $.50/gal more in some places, unless it's for work, for example, in which case I'd imagine the company they work for to be able to make reparations.[/QUOTE]
Poor person here.
Bought a Diesel because the fuel mileage is 3x more than the gas version of the vehicle, yet it has more power, lower emissions.
Diesel averages anywhere from the same price as gas, to 20c more per gallon. The fuel savings way more than equal it out.
[QUOTE=Zoran;51508925]Simply going by gas prices here, I can't really imagine that someone "really poor" would be in a financial state to buy a car that requires gas that's a good $.50/gal more in some places, unless it's for work, for example, in which case I'd imagine the company they work for to be able to make reparations.[/QUOTE]
Diesel and gasoline are about the same price in the UK, or at least within a couple of pence of each other. Both have a 57.95p per litre tax + the standard 20% VAT.
[QUOTE=Morgen;51508988]Diesel and gasoline are about the same price in the UK, or at least within a couple of pence of each other. Both have a 57.95p per litre tax + the standard 20% VAT.[/QUOTE]
Diesel have a much better mileage per liter simply due to the fact Diesel has a higher energy density.
That (and the more torquey nature of them) is the reason almost all trucks and larger vans pretty much all over the world are Diesels.
They can haul much for long distances with less fuel usage than any gasoline can.
Hybrids are only beneficial for city/suburb driving or similar stop&go traffic, get on a open freeway/highway and they're out of their element.
But that might be what needs to be encouraged, for smaller vans & private vehicles to be hybrids, since I'm willing to bet they're responsible for most of the Diesel pollution inside city limits, followed by public transportation.
So hybrid buses actually makes sense, if their route is partially freeway/highway and partially stop&go picking up or offloading passengers.
PHEVs are fine on the highway to. They can run in EV only mode for awhile, allow the engine to just shut off when it's not needed, and they allow you to save on brakes due to regenerative braking. Also could use the ICE on the highway and switch to EV mode in the city. PHEVs are great for people worried about the range of a BEV.
[QUOTE=Amakir;51508817]So what if you are really poor and the only car you have is a diesel car?[/QUOTE]
Then sell it.
[QUOTE=Tasm;51510430]Then sell it.[/QUOTE]
if you're so poor you can only afford the car you have then selling it is not an option
If your poor then statistics say you probably don't have a car if you live in London anyway. Less than half of London households with less than 25k income have a car. The public transport is very good in London.
[QUOTE=Morgen;51511820]If your poor then statistics say you probably don't have a car if you live in London anyway. Less than half of London households with less than 25k income have a car. The public transport is very good in London.[/QUOTE]
"Very good" I would correct to "just about passable", it's just that the public transport elsewhere in the UK is truly, shockingly crap to the point that it is a national failure.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;51510436]if you're so poor you can only afford the car you have then selling it is not an option[/QUOTE]
Public transport.
London has extensive bus and rail networks.
[t]http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz440dRKRW1r54c4oo1_1280.jpg[/t]
[t]http://www.maps-of-europe.net/maps/maps-of-united-kingdom/maps-of-london/large-detailed-public-transport-map-of-London-city.jpg[/t]
[QUOTE=Matthew0505;51512204]And because they have higher compression ratios since they don't have to worry about engine knock, but those higher ratios are responsible for the NOx emissions.[/QUOTE]
It's not directly the high compression that does it, but the high combustion temperatures that the high-compression leads to, and excess oxygen molecules.
Which is why EGR systems emerged, and later also introduced heat-exchanger to lower the temperature of the exhaust gasses metered into the intake manifold.
Buuuut that's in effect the equivalent of shitting into your own mouth, so EGR is rarely popular among diesel car owners.
I'm more interested on water+methanol injection into the intake manifold, combined with urea injection just before the particle filter, at-least then the engine isn't slowly filling itself up with [del]shit[/del] soot.
[QUOTE=TestECull;51508302]More V8s to replace them? Gotta get that low-end grunt somewhere...[/QUOTE]
Its a matter of forcing automakers to start innovating the combustion engine, or switch to hybrid/electric
100 years after its creation, the combustion engine has still barely changed at all. They sip gas/diesel better than they used to, but it's insane how wasteful, imprecise and analogue engines still are. Direct injection, camless computer-controlled valvetrains, compound forced induction systems (combined with engine downsizing) all need to be taken advantage of in order to produce higher performance, far more efficient/less polluting engines.
All the technology to do so would not be very difficult to develop, it just hasn't been done yet because the market regulations haven't forced auto manufacturers to innovate the basic design principles of combustion engines, they can still get away with pumping out the same engine designs they made 20 years ago.
Here in Canada, pretty much every tradie uses a gasoline powered van or truck.. I only see people with big 1/2's ever buying diesel.. I don't think it would be that hard to change since gasoline technology is here and it's affordable.
People here would tell them to fuck off. Paying more than 1,40 for a litre of petrol isn't for everyone.
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