Prominent Economists, Including Eight Nobel Laureates: ‘Do Not Vote for Donald Trump’ - Polidicks

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwMNfztXgAAAG3A.jpg[/IMG] [QUOTE]A group of 370 economists, including eight Nobel laureates in economics, have signed a letter warning against the election of Republican nominee Donald Trump, calling him a “dangerous, destructive choice” for the country. Signatories include economists Angus Deaton of Princeton University, who won the economics Nobel last year, and Oliver Hart of Harvard University, who was one of the two Nobel winners this year. The letter is notable because it is less partisan or ideological than such quadrennial exercises, and instead takes issue with Mr. Trump’s history of promoting debunked falsehoods. “He misinforms the electorate, degrades trust in public institutions with conspiracy theories and promotes willful delusion over engagement with reality,” said the signatories, which also include Paul Romer, the new chief economist at the World Bank, and Kenneth Arrow, the 1972 Nobel winner. The economists object to Mr. Trump for questioning the legitimacy of economic data produced by institutions such as the Bureau of Labor Statistics. They say he hasn’t proposed credible solutions to reduce budget deficits and that he has promoted misleading claims about trade and tax policy. They also chide Mr. Trump for failing to “listen to credible experts” and for promoting “magical thinking and conspiracy theories over sober assessments of feasible economic policy options.” The letter doesn’t mention Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton or endorse any candidate for president.[/QUOTE] [url]http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2016/11/01/prominent-economists-including-eight-nobel-laureates-do-not-vote-for-donald-trump/[/url] [url]http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/01/370-top-economists-publish-scathing-letter-against-dangerous-destructive-trump.html[/url] [url]http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/01/news/economy/economists-letter-dont-vote-trump/[/url]

Deaton has done some extensive work regarding poverty and how to help poor people, apart from creating consumer metrics. So, if he's in, that really means something.

Unfortunately because of the rise of anti-intellectualism in the west ("Britain has had enough of experts"), this message will probably fall on deaf ears among those who need to hear it the most.

Ok guys, so for a lot of people are willing to write off economics or just don't understand it but think they do for no apparent reason. Most just don't know of its existence entirely. But listen to them, it's so important that we do because they are experts in their field for a reason. I believe 100% that economic ignorance is the biggest detriment to our democracy that exists in today's world, and it's one that nobody is talking about.

"But...but...Hillary is a crooked candidate...right?" [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Okay, these types of posts have gotten annoying enough to ban for." - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Rossy167;51294163]Ok guys, so for a lot of people are willing to write off economics or just don't understand it but think they do for no apparent reason. Most just don't know of its existence entirely. But listen to them, it's so important that we do because they are experts in their field for a reason. I believe 100% that economic ignorance is the biggest detriment to our democracy that exists in today's world, and it's one that nobody is talking about.[/QUOTE] Really goes for left and right too, which is a shame. You can do a huge amount of debate over economics, but what these guys had put out is pretty hard to dispute. It's why for Republicans I supported Rand Paul the most, because while I feel his policies were fucking garbage for the working class, they are at least somewhat sane, rather than promising magic like the others did.

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;51294289]How does one candidate having a shitty economic plan somehow make the other less of a corrupt bag of shit? Are you trying to make a point or just provoke somebody?[/QUOTE] Hillary may be a terrible person but her plans for your country are sane, that's the message I receive from 'non-posts' like this anyway. I agree with it too.

[QUOTE=BF;51294147]Unfortunately because of the rise of anti-intellectualism in the west ("Britain has had enough of experts"), this message will probably fall on deaf ears among those who need to hear it the most.[/QUOTE] "Dang economists were the ones who ruined this country in the first place!"

[QUOTE=Dirty_Ape;51294383]"Dang economists were the ones who ruined this country in the first place!"[/QUOTE] Policymakers and the Fed have done nothing but fuck things up for the last 20 years. I have an econ degree and I even find it hard to trust modern economists.

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;51294289]How does one candidate having a shitty economic plan somehow make the other less of a corrupt bag of shit? Are you trying to make a point or just provoke somebody?[/QUOTE] Provoke you, evidently.

it doesnt seem like these kind of warnings mean anything anymore which im not sure i know what to feel about

[QUOTE=BF;51294147]Unfortunately because of the rise of anti-intellectualism in the west ("Britain has had enough of experts"), this message will probably fall on deaf ears among those who need to hear it the most.[/QUOTE] To be fair, the prominent intellectuals in economics are the whole reason that stagnation and decline for the working class are a problem in the first place.

[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;51294202]"But...but...Hillary is a crooked candidate...right?"[/QUOTE]Why aren't posts like this bannable?

I don't think I could if I somehow wanted to.

[QUOTE=Killer900;51294463]Why aren't posts like this bannable?[/QUOTE] Because then sensationalist headlines wouldn't exist? The amount of time's I've seen people generalize and strawman on this subforum is fucking insane. If you want more evidence, go into any thread about Islam and take a look as people go something along the lines of "A peaceful religion amirite guise?"

This is a bipartisan group of some of the most talented and renowned experts [I]on the planet[/I], some of the most intelligent and respected people in the entire field of economics, from both sides of the political spectrum - and people would rather listen to fucking Alex Jones. If our society didn't fetishize political "outsiders" as some magic cure-all for every ill of society, we wouldn't be in this situation. It's disturbing that such a severe condemnation from some of the most knowledgeable economists in the world will be ignored because, well, at least Trump's not a politician. [I]Nineteen[/I] Nobel Prize-winning economists endorsed Hillary a month ago. Also massively bipartisan. Hillary has been endorsed by more than 300 professional economists who have at least an MA. Trump has been endorsed by [I]about[/I] five. Don't pretend that this election is about the economy if you're voting for Trump. [B]It isn't.[/B] If you think he's better on economics, to use his own phrasing, [B]wrong.[/B] [editline]1st November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=daschnek;51294450]To be fair, the prominent intellectuals in economics are the whole reason that stagnation and decline for the working class are a problem in the first place.[/QUOTE] You really think this? You think there's a secret cabal of economists planning this out? That's not how academia works. This is a bipartisan group who have made an entire career out of arguing with each other about [I]how[/I] the economy operates. Is our economic policy effective? Most would probably say no, and argue why, and get responses, and argue why again. These economists do not make policy. They observe how economics happens and theorize why it behaves the way it does. That's what economic theory is. Most aren't designing US economic policy.

[QUOTE=Sableye;51294438]it doesnt seem like these kind of warnings mean anything anymore which im not sure i know what to feel about[/QUOTE] That because its not about policy, but a culture war.

[QUOTE=BF;51294147]Unfortunately because of the rise of anti-intellectualism in the west ("Britain has had enough of experts"), this message will probably fall on deaf ears among those who need to hear it the most.[/QUOTE] Trump's adviser literally said "You shouldn't believe economists or Nobel Prize winners on trade." I agree. We should believe real estate salesmen and car shop employees instead.

[QUOTE=Killer900;51294463]Why aren't posts like this bannable?[/QUOTE] If they weren't before, they are now. It's such a stupid, low-effort piece of tripe, and I'm fed up with them. Report these.

whether or not they are right these type of "don't vote for him for X reason" warnings don't resonate with the people they want to listen. This is mostly because it comes off as talk from the ivory tower by people who are above it all and don't understand the working class troubles. Academics generally aren't respected by a lot of people in society anymore.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;51294872]Trump's adviser literally said "You shouldn't believe economists or Nobel Prize winners on trade." I agree. We should believe real estate salesmen and car shop employees instead.[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;xnhJWusyj4I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnhJWusyj4I[/video] "I feel that everything is bad therefore I will make sure everybody believes its bad also" also "statistics are theoretically right" -Newt 'the newt' Gingrich [editline]2nd November 2016[/editline] hopefully all these "liberal" statistics are right and these guy's world of feelings are completely crushed on the morning of november 9th

i agree with them saying that the immigration plays a part of the wage stagnation, but they aren't the responsible leading force on them. tons of people are too busy remembering the good days when we had factories with good paying jobs but not remembering the contexts such as technological advancements made in the last few decades. it doesn't matter if you're an illegal immigrant or a natural born citizen, unless you have skills to differentiate yourself from the masses, you're going to be competing with 2016's hardest workers: machines. you're not going to be able to compete against something that'll never ask for a raise or a bathroom break, one that doesn't complain about long hours or lack of vacation time. and to make it worse, they're only getting better & more compact; machines are going to jump from working in factories & replacing human workers to replacing them in aisles in your store too. we need to invest in education or some other shit, cause either way, the low skilled people in america is going to compete either with machines that are progressively getting better & replacing jobs every year with third worlders who get paid dimes with almost non-existent regulations. we can use illegal immigrants as red herrings much as we want, but thats not gonna solve shit. we can also use buzzwords and strong patriotic feelings like shouting we'll tax imports, but as even ted cruz had to point out, we'll be paying that as consumers because the corporates will simply shrug and say it'll balance out later when the cost to make & transport goods are getting optimized every year. thank fuck i work for an industry where it'll be suicide to replace human workers, but good luck to everyone else lol.

[QUOTE=Sableye;51295087][video=youtube;xnhJWusyj4I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnhJWusyj4I[/video] "I feel that everything is bad therefore I will make sure everybody believes its bad also" also "statistics are theoretically right" -Newt 'the newt' Gingrich [editline]2nd November 2016[/editline] hopefully all these "liberal" statistics are right and these guy's world of feelings are completely crushed on the morning of november 9th[/QUOTE] I know this is video is more a joke at this point but it still makes me really angry and frustrated to watch. There are real people, voters and politicians, who actually hold this view. It makes my blood boil.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;51294842]You really think this?[/QUOTE] Well, yes. It's not a particularly controversial statement in my opinion. [QUOTE=.Isak.;51294842] You think there's a secret cabal of economists planning this out? [/QUOTE] No, but I do think that the field of economics has a neoliberal bent and the real world effects of this are pretty easy to see. [QUOTE=.Isak.;51294842]That's not how academia works. This is a bipartisan group who have made an entire career out of arguing with each other about how the economy operates. Is our economic policy effective? Most would probably say no, and argue why, and get responses, and argue why again. [/QUOTE] That's a highly idealized view of how academia works. It's too big of a subject for one post, but that's not really what academic economists do. [QUOTE=.Isak.;51294842] These economists do not make policy. [/QUOTE] No, but they train, advise, and cheer for or talk down to the policymakers. Academic economists are key to how economic policy is formed. [QUOTE=.Isak.;51294842] They observe how economics happens [/QUOTE] Actually, many economists outright reject the legitimacy of empirical observation of the economy. This is especially true of the Austrian school, but it's present in 'orthodox' econ as well. [QUOTE=.Isak.;51294842] theorize why it behaves the way it does. That's what economic theory is. Most aren't designing US economic policy. [/QUOTE] And again, the effects of economic theory are not hard to see. The field of economics is in need of a serious paradigm shift.

[QUOTE=daschnek;51295198]The field of economics is in need of a serious paradigm shift.[/QUOTE] But explain why, please.

[QUOTE=daschnek;51295198]The field of economics is in need of a serious paradigm shift.[/QUOTE] And what do you suggest is the solution? Trump? His economic policy [i]literally doesn't even manage to add up expenses[/i]. It's not that his ideas are counter to "neoliberal economics," it's that his ideas are nonsensical and rely on literal magic to work - he just says "oh the economy will make up for the [I]over one trillion dollar deficit[/I] that my plan has." Like it'll just grow for him because he's a cool dude. We've shifted economic theory a lot in the past. Monetarism fundamentally changed government economic policy from standard Keynesian ideas. I don't know how you can want a "paradigm shift" when economists are looking at how economies behave and drawing conclusions and suggestions from that. I don't necessarily disagree that mainstream economics should talk a hard look at rational choice theory and other assumed truths about market behavior, but it's just weird to generalize mainstream economics to "the field of economics." There's many different ideas being discussed, not just a bunch of guys jacking off in a corner to New Keynesian economics. I don't know how you can expect a field that looks at real-world market behaviors to have a "paradigm shift" any more than you can expect biology to have a "paradigm shift" and decide to redefine what a cell is. There are definitely some assumptions that can be (and usually are) challenged, but you're generalizing "the field of economics" as if it's just the mainstream ideas and ignoring that [i]any[/i] field of academia is a continual, adaptive [i]discourse[/i], not a concrete ideology.

[QUOTE=daschnek;51295198]Actually, many economists outright reject the legitimacy of empirical observation of the economy. This is especially true of the Austrian school, but it's present in 'orthodox' econ as well.[/QUOTE] can you or someone boil this down

[QUOTE=daschnek;51295198]Actually, many economists outright reject the legitimacy of empirical observation of the economy. This is especially true of the Austrian school, but it's present in 'orthodox' econ as well.[/QUOTE] isn't this saying "Austrian school economists just make shit up"

[QUOTE=daschnek;51294450]To be fair, the prominent intellectuals in economics are the whole reason that stagnation and decline for the working class are a problem in the first place.[/QUOTE] Politicians ignoring economists so they can play political games with the economy is the reason for these problems. The solution is greater economic knowledge of the general public, and that's something that policy makers have a vested interest in stopping happening.

[QUOTE=Rossy167;51295842]Politicians ignoring economists so they can play political games with the economy is the reason for these problems. The solution is greater economic knowledge of the general public, and that's something that policy makers have a vested interest in stopping happening.[/QUOTE] Nah, those economists have the same political agendas as the politicians. Not saying the base foundation is not firmly rooted in science but there is too much tea-leaves gazing involved for political ideologies to not take over a sizeable driving force of doctrine. i mean its only human.