I think people seriously need to recognise what terrorism is. It's not just religious violence. It's not just Muslims crashing planes into buildings or blowing themselves up. It's anyone who commits an attack to attempt to achieve some kind of political aim. And if we're going to consider two Muslims shooting up a magazine office terrorism, we should consider a white man shooting up a black church one too.
Ironically, I've been accused on Twitter of being racist or ignoring racism in America because I said that it was right for them to give the killer a vest when he was being led to the police car. They never thought to ask me of what I actually thought of the situation itself.
[editline]19th June 2015[/editline]
Also, I [I]really[/I] want to see his interview with Malala Yousafzai.
I never really got the Confederate statues and street name point he made, don't quite a lot blacks live in the South. Why does the state government think it's ok to celebrate those people, gneuine question, I know nothing about US history but that's kind of weird to me. It feels as weird as naming a street Goebbels Avenue
Fucking Viacom. Be greedy on another video. Not this one.
[QUOTE=Tacooo;48003709]I never really got the Confederate statues and street name point he made, don't quite a lot blacks live in the South. Why does the state government think it's ok to celebrate those people, gneuine question, I know nothing about US history but that's kind of weird to me. It feels as weird as naming a street Goebbels Avenue[/QUOTE]
The confederate isnt as simple as "racist southerners who wanted slaves and lost a war" I dont think many people praise that shit anyways in America these days, its more just for remembrance and history, not celebration.
How can he possibly say that Al Qaeda and ISIS are jack shit just because a white kid shot up a church?
In all fucking fairness, ISIS is performing mass fucking executions. Jon Stewart, you are brilliant, but that was the dumbest thing I've heard.
Oh and why is this all a bunch of media outcry? Where the fuck is the outcry when blacks gang rape, perform gang member kills, violence, drugs in their 'hoods'?
It's ALL because a white kid did it, that people are just flailing their shit about it.
[QUOTE=Covalent;48004301]How can he possibly say that Al Qaeda and ISIS are jack shit just because a white kid shot up a church?
In all fucking fairness, ISIS is performing mass fucking executions. Jon Stewart, you are brilliant, but that was the dumbest thing I've heard.
Oh and why is this all a bunch of media outcry? Where the fuck is the outcry when blacks gang rape, perform gang member kills, violence, drugs in their 'hoods'?
It's ALL because a white kid did it, that people are just flailing their shit about it.[/QUOTE]
I think his point with Al Qaeda and ISIS was that in all honesty, they are jack shit to us in America. Are they jack shit to us as humans? No, they are fucked up and need to go, but ISIS and Al Qaeda are not threats to America compared to our own people in America.
[QUOTE]Oh and why is this all a bunch of media outcry? Where the fuck is the outcry when blacks gang rape, perform gang member kills, violence, drugs in their 'hoods'?[/QUOTE]
Because in all honesty, that happens every single day and is pretty much just common knowledge that its going on. Its also not gonna bring in the views like "White racist shoots up Black Church"
The media also for whatever other reasons never likes to talk about the gang culture regardless of the fact its pretty much the starting point on why theirs so much black crime and gangs.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;48004367]I think his point with Al Qaeda and ISIS was that in all honesty, they are jack shit to us in America. Are they jack shit to us as humans? No, they are fucked up and need to go, but ISIS and Al Qaeda are not threats to America compared to our own people in America.
Because in all honesty, that happens every single day and is pretty much just common knowledge that its going on. Its also not gonna bring in the views like "White racist shoots up Black Church"
The media also for whatever other reasons never likes to talk about the gang culture regardless of the fact its pretty much the starting point on why theirs so much black crime and gangs.[/QUOTE]
So if we're being so darn "Oh we should help everyone" attitude, then why are a lot of people saying Fuck ISIS and what it's doing outside of 'Murica. Yeah it doesn't affect you -directly-, but it does have an effect on what people in those areas think of you. Come into their country, destroy a bunch of villages, homes, properties. Then leave, and now ISIS is free-roaming(for the most part) and killing every day? What effect does that have on the population, now that a bigger threat has come.
As you said, the only reason why this is making a big bank, is because it was a white guy.
I'm sure if a black dude shot up the same church, it would just have been said; "Gang violence".
Oh and cannot forget about the mistreated and misunderstood black guys that beat white women to death just for the hell of it.
[QUOTE=Covalent;48004437]So if we're being so darn "Oh we should help everyone" attitude, then why are a lot of people saying Fuck ISIS and what it's doing outside of 'Murica. Yeah it doesn't affect you -directly-, but it does have an effect on what people in those areas think of you. Come into their country, destroy a bunch of villages, homes, properties. Then leave, and now ISIS is free-roaming(for the most part) and killing every day? What effect does that have on the population, now that a bigger threat has come.
As you said, the only reason why this is making a big bank, is because it was a white guy.
I'm sure if a black dude shot up the same church, it would just have been said; "Gang violence".
Oh and cannot forget about the mistreated and misunderstood black guys that beat white women to death just for the hell of it.[/QUOTE]
Hey man, I dont know what to tell you about other peoples views on ISIS and that shit.
That said, I disagree if a black guy shot up a church it would just be a passing thing. A church is a church, skin color really wouldnt matter(even though in this instance it does). Shooting up a church is just really fucked up no matter what, id honestly put it right their next to shooting up a pre-school.
This was a terrorist attack, plain and simple. And I wish the media didn't reserve that word exclusively for Muslims or anybody who isn't white, this guy had one purpose and he wanted to kill non-whites.
You never hear the media talk about a mentally ill black teenager, why the fuck do they do it with the white guys? Fuck him, he is a terrorist and nothing but.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;48004285]The confederate isnt as simple as "racist southerners who wanted slaves and lost a war" I dont think many people praise that shit anyways in America these days, its more just for remembrance and history, not celebration.[/QUOTE]
I had to laugh at this because your first agree came from General Lee, but yeah, you got it. It was more about southerners feeling like they had insufficient representation in the national government. That sounds familiar, huh?
Slavery was on the decline and most people acknowledged it as a moral evil at that point (as stated by Robert E. Lee himself). White racists using Confederate symbolism is just like European neo-Nazis using Imperial German symbolism in place of Nazi symbolism even though Imperial Germany didn't represent those views.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48005309]I had to laugh at this because your first agree came from General Lee, but yeah, you got it. It was more about southerners feeling like they had insufficient representation in the national government. That sounds familiar, huh?
Slavery was on the decline and most people acknowledged it as a moral evil at that point (as stated by Robert E. Lee himself). White racists using Confederate symbolism is just like European neo-Nazis using Imperial German symbolism in place of Nazi symbolism even though Imperial Germany didn't represent those views.[/QUOTE]
Heh, I made this account several years ago when I was significantly more extreme in my viewpoint concerning the Civil War (read: the CSA did nothing wrong and they should have won). I've loosened up quite a bit, and while I still respect General Lee as a historical figure, I definitely now understand how nuanced the conflict was. At my current point of view, those who respect the Civil War do so out of heritage (barring the trailer trash hicks) and I feel you can't compare the CSA with the Nazis. Slavery at the time was a dying, but ancient practice, and while immoral from today's standpoint, it was significantly more accepted in those times. Therefore, the Southern practice of slavery was simply a vestige of a different time, a simple holdover. Meanwhile, there was no precedent of herding hundreds of thousands of people into death camps, and in that sense, there was no tradition that the CSA had.
Faulting the CSA for slavery would be like faulting an old man for being homophobic or racist, yes it is bad, but the man grew up in a different circumstance and his views are deep rooted from a time when they were norm. His viewpoints are negative, but you have to fault the era than the man. The Nazi example in this would be a teenager holding extreme views due to a rough childhood, it was a reaction that had no viable explanation like the old man. That same teenager might look back 20 years later and think "I was such an idiot.", as Germany has done today.
Finally, as an avid Imperial Germany buff, the neo-Nazi's appropriation of Imperial German iconography is horrifying, now people think the Kaiser was a Nazi and the Imperial triband was designed by Goering himself.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;48004285]The confederate isnt as simple as "racist southerners who wanted slaves and lost a war" I dont think many people praise that shit anyways in America these days, its more just for remembrance and history, not celebration.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48005309]I had to laugh at this because your first agree came from General Lee, but yeah, you got it. It was more about southerners feeling like they had insufficient representation in the national government. That sounds familiar, huh?
Slavery was on the decline and most people acknowledged it as a moral evil at that point (as stated by Robert E. Lee himself). White racists using Confederate symbolism is just like European neo-Nazis using Imperial German symbolism in place of Nazi symbolism even though Imperial Germany didn't represent those views.[/QUOTE]
Saying it was about slavery is reductive, but saying it was about state's rights was even more reductive. The secession and civil war were very much about the issue of slavery and its expansion. (If anything, slavery was "on the decline" in no small part due to the northerners preventing the establishment of slavery in these new territories, which was one of the causes for the war.
[url=http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html]But don't take my word for it, let's ask the states themselves. Take a look at The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States:[/url]
[b]Georgia[/b]
[quote]The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery[/quote]
[quote]. A brief history of the rise, progress, and policy of anti-slavery and the political organization into whose hands the administration of the Federal Government has been committed will fully justify the pronounced verdict of the people of Georgia. The party of Lincoln, called the Republican party, under its present name and organization, is of recent origin. It is admitted to be an anti-slavery party. While it attracts to itself by its creed the scattered advocates of exploded political heresies, of condemned theories in political economy, the advocates of commercial restrictions, of protection, of special privileges, of waste and corruption in the administration of Government, anti-slavery is its mission and its purpose. By anti-slavery it is made a power in the state. The question of slavery was the great difficulty in the way of the formation of the Constitution. [/quote]
[quote]We had acquired a large territory by successful war with Mexico; Congress had to govern it; how, in relation to slavery, was the question then demanding solution. This state of facts gave form and shape to the anti-slavery sentiment throughout the North and the conflict began. Northern anti-slavery men of all parties asserted the right to exclude slavery from the territory by Congressional legislation and demanded the prompt and efficient exercise of this power to that end. [/quote]
[b]Mississippi[/b]
[quote]Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun.[/quote]
[quote]It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses protection to that right on the high seas, in the Territories, and wherever the government of the United States had jurisdiction.
It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.
...
It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.
It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.
...
It has made combinations and formed associations to carry out its schemes of emancipation in the States and wherever else slavery exists.
It seeks not to elevate or to support the slave, but to destroy his present condition without providing a better. [/quote]
[b]South Carolina[/b]
[quote]The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor. [/quote]
[b]Texas[/b]
[quote]Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them? [/quote]
[quote]In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States. [/quote]
[b]Virginia[/b]
(this one isn't as bad, it's just a declaration of seperation from the union)
[quote] The people of Virginia, in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in Convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under the said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression; and the Federal Government, having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States. [/quote]
Hell, just ctrl-f that page. "Slave" gets 83 mentions. "North"? 38. "Union"? 29. "Rights"? 16.
Don't get me wrong, there were more dimensions to the conflict than just racist southerners (the economic implications of abolition being the most obvious), but ultimately all of them tie back to slavery.
The Confederate battle flag represents a fighting force dedicated to the subjugation of their fellow man.
[QUOTE=Tacooo;48003709]I never really got the Confederate statues and street name point he made, don't quite a lot blacks live in the South. Why does the state government think it's ok to celebrate those people, gneuine question, I know nothing about US history but that's kind of weird to me. It feels as weird as naming a street Goebbels Avenue[/QUOTE]
It's a fairly common view here that (one I happen to learn towards agreeing with, but not as absolutely as some would paint it as) that the civil war wasn't exclusively a slavery issue. It played a major part in secession and fighting, whether you see it as a moral imperative the North had decided on from the day SC seceded, or if you view it as an issue Northern politicians and aristocrats used to give the North something to rally around and give purpose to a relatively soulless martial identity, no one reasonable will argue that slavery was NOT a major factor for one reason or another.
However, it's generally recognized that a lot of confederate soldiers believed they were legitimately were fighting for and enlisted to defend their states rights, whether that be the varying levels of desired autonomy, to keep industrialization out of the south, or just (in my great-great-great-greatish uncles case), because they believed in their states right not to have their farms, homes, and families burned and raped by Sherman and his army. I'm sure there were a good handful who fought for slavery, but generally, the 2ish% of the south who could afford to own slaves generally didn't have to sign up for the Army. Thus, a lot of confederate heroes and higher ups are still viewed in a positive light here, General Lee is always a favorite, as well as Stonewall Jackson (has a High School named after him, in fact) and Beaurgard, while sort of unknown, is usually regarded as a stand-up guy, of sorts.
Granted, this is coming from someone who grew up in Virginia, so I may be a bit biased for one reason or another, I suppose. I just don't like to see "The South was filled to the brim with slave owners, and that and their own hate is all they cared about" just as much as I like to see "The South Dindu nuffin muh states rights muh heritage" used as a a reason to legitimize or sweep aside slavery.
[QUOTE=Covalent;48004301]How can he possibly say that Al Qaeda and ISIS are jack shit just because a white kid shot up a church?
In all fucking fairness, ISIS is performing mass fucking executions. Jon Stewart, you are brilliant, but that was the dumbest thing I've heard.
Oh and why is this all a bunch of media outcry? Where the fuck is the outcry when blacks gang rape, perform gang member kills, violence, drugs in their 'hoods'?
It's ALL because a white kid did it, that people are just flailing their shit about it.[/QUOTE]
That's not even KIND of what he implied.
At all
As a Southern white make. The shooting is fucking horrific. As an Atlanta native, I really haven't experience overt racism. Granted there are assholes here. I know I don't speak for every Southerner, but The Congederate flag doesn't just represent racism. The flag also stood for State and individual rights. Hell, only the rich owned slaves in the South, and they were the reason why most men joined in the fighting. Most of the fighters wee poor farmers that were probably told if they didn't fight The Union would take away individual States Rights. Granted owning slaves was one of them, but it wasn't the only 'right' that was threatened. Most fighters didn't consider themselves as Confederates. They either consider themselves as Georgian, Virginians, and etc. Also The South was in a state of utter chaos during and after the war. Personally, I wouldn't of fought for The South, but I probably wouldn't have a choice if I lived in Confederate territory. The flag I think non-racists use it as a symbol of the horrors that occurred during the war, and to never forget the sacrifice of our ancestors.
I don't really understand the reaction to this shooting. Worrying about confederate flags and street names seems to be so misguided. Racist mass shootings like this, against blacks or any group, are extremely rare. Does the U.S have a race problem? Yea. Is this shooting a product of that? I highly, highly doubt it. People that do these things are so far radicalized that renaming street's and taking down flags isn't going to do shit. The flag probably should.be taken down, but it should be in the name of progress, not because some physco shot up a church.
I was listening to the news and they said the South Carolina confederate flag was still flying at full mast while all other flags had been lowered.
Even though I'm not a reactionary to confederate supporters, that shit is all sorts of fucked up.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48008185]I was listening to the news and they said the South Carolina confederate flag was still flying at full mast while all other flags had been lowered.
Even though I'm not a reactionary to confederate supporters, that shit is all sorts of fucked up.[/QUOTE]
Link to that? It sounds like a bunch of bs
[editline]19th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=PelPix123;48008181]America doesn't make progress unless it's in reaction to someone shooting someone else. It's because we're apathetic. We don't do anything until shit gets REALLY bad, like a grumpy old man that says his heart is fine.[/QUOTE]
The reaction doesn't even make sense though. It isn't like we have death squads roaming the the streets at night looking for blacks to kill.
I feel like everyone is trying to connect this event to the current discussion of racism going involving police and institutionalized racism. It doesn't fit. He was a far radicalized lunatic, who more than likely has some sort of metal disorder, trying to start a race war. Talking about taking down a flag is going to do what in relation to this shooting?
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;48008368]Link to that? It sounds like a bunch of bs
[editline]19th June 2015[/editline]
The reaction doesn't even make sense though. It isn't like we have death squads roaming the the streets at night looking for blacks to kill.
I feel like everyone is trying to connect this event to the current discussion of racism going involving police and institutionalized racism. It doesn't fit. He was a far radicalized lunatic, who more than likely has some sort of metal disorder, trying to start a race war. Talking about taking down a flag is going to do what in relation to this shooting?[/QUOTE]
I was watching CNN earlier and they said something about it being illegal in the state of SC to lower the Confederate flag under any circumstances or something, which is why it was still flying at full mast.
[QUOTE=Covalent;48004437]So if we're being so darn "Oh we should help everyone" attitude, then why are a lot of people saying Fuck ISIS and what it's doing outside of 'Murica. Yeah it doesn't affect you -directly-, but it does have an effect on what people in those areas think of you. Come into their country, destroy a bunch of villages, homes, properties. Then leave, and now ISIS is free-roaming(for the most part) and killing every day? What effect does that have on the population, now that a bigger threat has come.
As you said, the only reason why this is making a big bank, is because it was a white guy.
I'm sure if a black dude shot up the same church, it would just have been said; "Gang violence".
Oh and cannot forget about the mistreated and misunderstood black guys that beat white women to death just for the hell of it.[/QUOTE]
Man you're just living in your own lil' racist world over there huh.
[editline]19th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;48008170]I don't really understand the reaction to this shooting. Worrying about confederate flags and street names seems to be so misguided. Racist mass shootings like this, against blacks or any group, are extremely rare. Does the U.S have a race problem? Yea. Is this shooting a product of that? I highly, highly doubt it. People that do these things are so far radicalized that renaming street's and taking down flags isn't going to do shit. The flag probably should.be taken down, but it should be in the name of progress, not because some physco shot up a church.[/QUOTE]
If there is a racist shooting, how is that not a product of a racist culture? Does it just come out of nowhere? Getting rid of the flag is progress spurned by this event, it's not like it wasn't something we should have done ages ago.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;48008563]Man you're just living in your own lil' racist world over there huh.[/QUOTE]
Yaaadduuuurrr, I'm just a privileged white BOI who dun know whataahurrr he dun turkin aboooout
legit that's how ridiculous you sound
[QUOTE=Covalent;48008639]Yaaadduuuurrr, I'm just a privileged white BOI who dun know whataahurrr he dun turkin aboooout
legit that's how ridiculous you sound[/QUOTE]
you aren't contibuting to the conversation at all, and you are just trying to be an asshat at this point. So stop being an asshole or just leave.
[QUOTE=Covalent;48008639]Yaaadduuuurrr, I'm just a privileged white BOI who dun know whataahurrr he dun turkin aboooout
legit that's how ridiculous you sound[/QUOTE]
[quote]Oh and cannot forget about the mistreated and misunderstood black guys that beat white women to death just for the hell of it.[/quote]
this is a racist statement. i live in the deep south, i see this shit all the time. people try to justify these kinds of statements with "well, it's true!"
the race of these people is not the problem. it's how they are brought up and treated in society [I]​because of their race, [/I]because of generations and generations of bigotry and hatred. people are trying to just ignore everything that happened, when in reality, you can't just say "affirmative action" and "civil rights" for a decade or two and decide that the problem is fixed. sure, it may be fixed legally, but the problem of racism is still a very large one.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;48008563]Man you're just living in your own lil' racist world over there huh.
[editline]19th June 2015[/editline]
If there is a racist shooting, how is that not a product of a racist culture? Does it just come out of nowhere? Getting rid of the flag is progress spurned by this event, it's not like it wasn't something we should have done ages ago.[/QUOTE]
Your right, I take back what I said.
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