89-year-old on trial for allegedly being guard at Nazi death camp - Polidicks

[quote=BBC News][b]John Demjanjuk, accused of helping to murder nearly 28,000 Jews at a Nazi death camp, has gone on trial in the German city of Munich.[/b] Mr Demjanjuk, who is 89 and was deported from the US in May, entered the courtroom in a wheelchair. His eyes were closed but he seemed conscious. He denies being a camp guard at Sobibor, in Nazi-occupied Poland. The trial is expected to last until May and, if found guilty, Mr Demjanjuk could be sentenced to 15 years in jail. The trial's first session was delayed for over an hour, as large numbers of people tried to gain access. [b]'Hollywood, not Sobibor'[/b] Organisers were overwhelmed by the crowds of people trying to get in, including journalists and relatives of Holocaust survivors. Thomas Blatt, a Sobibor survivor, told journalists on his way into court that he was not looking for revenge. "I'm here to tell the way it was years ago, I don't know Demjanjuk in person," he said. The accused arrived in an ambulance, which witnesses say struggled to get past the crowds at the entrance. Ukraine-born Mr Demjanjuk was wheeled into the courtroom, in a reclined position and looking pale. But a doctor who examined him two hours before the trial said his vital signs were stable, the Associated Press news agency said. Efraim Zuroff, director of the Nazi-hunting Simon Wiesenthal Center's Israel Office, said: "Demjanjuk put on a great act. He should have gone to Hollywood, not Sobibor." [b]'Moral double standard'[/b] Defence lawyers say he will not speak at all during the trial, and will neither confirm nor deny that he was at Sobibor. Defence lawyer Ulrich Busch said the case should never have gone to trial, citing cases in which Germans assigned to Sobibor had been acquitted. "How can you say that those who gave the orders were innocent... and the one who received the orders is guilty?" Mr Busch told the court. "There is a moral and legal double standard being applied today." John Demjanjuk, a retired car worker in the US state of Ohio, stands accused of having helped the Nazi death factory to function. Prosecutors say that, as a camp guard at Sobibor, he pushed thousands of Jewish men, women and children to their death in the gas chambers. [b]'Hell on earth'[/b] Mr Demjanjuk was captured by the Nazis while fighting in the Soviet army. He denies even being at Sobibor. But prosecutors say statements from a now-dead Ukrainian place Mr Demjanjuk at that death camp. The statements - which the defence says are inconsistent - say Mr Demjanjuk "participated in the mass killing of Jews". Over 60 years after the end of World War II, this may be Germany's last big war crimes trial. But the BBC's Oana Lungescu in Munich says that, as the first to focus on a low-ranking foreigner rather than a senior Nazi commander, it breaks new legal ground. As Mr Demjanjuk is in poor health, doctors have asked that hearings should be limited to two 90-minute sessions per day. There are no living witnesses in this case, but over 30 people listed as joint plaintiffs are expected to testify about what happened at Sobibor, described by investigators as hell on earth. Two are camp survivors, others lost relatives or their entire families among the 250,000 people murdered there. This is the second time John Demjanjuk has appeared in court. Two decades ago, he was sentenced to death in Israel, convicted of being Ivan the Terrible, a notoriously sadistic guard at the Treblinka death camp. But that ruling was overturned after new evidence showed that another Ukrainian was probably responsible.[/quote] [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8385577.stm[/url] IMO this is ridiculous, he was just some random guard probably fucked up by Nazi propaganda. Unless he's continued to do this stuff in the 70 years since the war he should be let off, he's not gonna survive 15 years.

Apparently being a Nazi [I]is[/I] forgivable. Well if you say so...

Good luck finding witnesses.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;18664279]I disagree. If he was a Guard at a Nazi Death Camp, it definitely didn't happen against his will.[/QUOTE] Yeah like, you could go "Well I kinda like the jews" when a bunch of gestapo officers ask. Besides, how will the future judge the Guantanamo guards? Might look silly today but who knows if they are going to be judged the same. Hindsight is 20/20.

[quote]"How can you say that those who gave the orders were innocent... and the one who received the orders is guilty?" Mr Busch told the court. "There is a moral and legal double standard being applied today."[/quote] For those who inevitably won't read the OP.

Wow, this thread will be full of trolling and/or flaming. Get the popcorn! :munch:

Its not like he was like I hate jews so I want to guard the camp. Most Germans were brainwashed.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;18664279]I disagree. If he was a Guard at a Nazi Death Camp, it definitely didn't happen against his will. They didn't let just anybody guard those camps.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] Mr Demjanjuk was captured by the Nazis while fighting in the Soviet army. [/QUOTE] Could just be that he didn't want to die himself.

Also should we judge a person that needs to be wheeled to the courtroom in a wheelchair when his vital signs look so that he could survive it? He's 89 goddamn.

I do not feel sorry for him at all, sure, if he was just a random guard at some deathcamp just guarding, not killing anyone, I would probably have felt sorry for him. But when he's responisble for that many deaths, heck, he can rot in hell for all I care.

[QUOTE=evilking1;18664296]Yeah like, you could go "Well I kinda like the jews" when a bunch of gestapo officers ask. Besides, how will the future judge the Guantanamo guards? Might look silly today but who knows if they are going to be judged the same. Hindsight is 20/20.[/QUOTE] If you said you liked the Jews, you would be shot. It's not an easy situation.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;18664279]I disagree. If he was a Guard at a Nazi Death Camp, it definitely didn't happen against his will. They didn't let just anybody guard those camps.[/QUOTE] Most of the Death Camp guards were black coats, the ruthless ones. But personally the past is the past. Even if he was ordered to kill Jews, doesn't mean anyone knows if he liked it or would do it on a normal day without his CO, so I think the trial is bunk.

[QUOTE=Master117;18664363]If you said you liked the Jews, you would be shot. It's not an easy situation.[/QUOTE] You could not be a coward and fight back.

It was a war... It's been over for 60 years. He wasn't a terrorist, he was a soldier. This is entirely ridiculous, in my opinion. The man is 89 years old and isn't a threat to anyone.

[QUOTE=Carne;18664343]I do not feel sorry for him at all, sure, if he was just a random guard at some deathcamp just guarding, not killing anyone, I would probably have felt sorry for him. But when he's responisble for that many deaths, heck, he can rot in hell for all I care.[/QUOTE] Right, so if you were ordered to kill a room full of people, would you refuse, and get killed, meaning someone else would do it, or do it, then live with those deaths on your mind for the rest of your life?

For fucks sake this is being taken too far. Boo fucking hoo his job was to kill some jews 60 years ago, it's not like he has suffered enough

He's 89 years old, leave him the fuck alone.

[QUOTE=Deathbyfire;18664411]Right, so if you were ordered to kill a room full of people, would you refuse, and get killed, meaning someone else would do it, or do it, then live with those deaths on your mind for the rest of your life?[/QUOTE] I would not have killed those people myself, for sure. It would be more horrible to have the deaths of people [b]you[/b] killed instead of watching someone else kill them. Not that he stood there with a gun and killed thousands of people, but he ordered them to get killed.

The guy is 89 years old and he can't even take care of himself I bet, Sure he play on a little bit but unless he is a crazy fuck, he suffered enough. Not unlike the Captian of Enola gay he said he would do it again if needed. now thats crazy.

There have been psychological studies that have shown ordinary people can do horrible things if an authority figure orders them to do so.

[QUOTE=ZuXer;18664441]The guy is 89 years old and he can't even take care of himself I bet, Sure he play on a little bit but unless he is a crazy fuck, he suffered enough. Not unlike the Captian of Enola gay he said he would do it again if needed. now thats crazy.[/QUOTE]yeah, why arn't the allied soldiers who guaded our POW and Japanese camps being arrested, they almost did the same thing, the pilot of the Enola gay killed a fuckton of innocent people and he was called a fucking war hero

It's completely ridiculous they brought him all the way from the USA to Germany when there is no certainty at all that he participated in the murders of dozens of Jews. No witnesses, hardly any documents. If he is found guilty of throwing people into gas chambers, then I hardly feel any remorse, but right now all that is sure that he was a PoW from the Soviet Army.

people should get over it.

i hope they execute this nazi asshole

[QUOTE=The mouse;18664491]yeah, why arn't the allied soldiers who guaded our POW and Japanese camps being arrested, they almost did the same thing, the pilot of the Enola gay killed a fuckton of innocent people and he was called a fucking war hero[/QUOTE] Even more people would have died if we invaded the mainland. It would have been a huge fucking disaster for both sides.

[QUOTE=evilking1;18664341]Also should we judge a person that needs to be wheeled to the courtroom in a wheelchair when his vital signs look so that he could survive it? He's 89 goddamn.[/QUOTE] And? Sorry we don't waive war crimes because "You're old".

[QUOTE=The mouse;18664491]yeah, why arn't the allied soldiers who guaded our POW and Japanese camps being arrested, they almost did the same thing, the pilot of the Enola gay killed a fuckton of innocent people and he was called a fucking war hero[/QUOTE] Uhh, the Japanese interment camps weren't exactly a high point in our nations history, but they are light years away from the Nazi camps.

Oh for fucks sake. My grandad died of old age at 88. This guy is old enough, leave him alone.

[QUOTE=The mouse;18664491]yeah, why arn't the allied soldiers who guaded our POW and Japanese camps being arrested, they almost did the same thing, the pilot of the Enola gay killed a fuckton of innocent people and he was called a fucking war hero[/QUOTE] Because the Allied forces won the war.

[QUOTE=Bomimo;18664501]people should get over it.[/QUOTE] Agreed, this was a long time ago...