Supreme Court decides workers don't need to be paid for mandatory 25-minute security checks at Amazo - Polidicks

[quote]The Supreme Court on Tuesday ruled unanimously that a temp agency was not required to pay workers at Amazon warehouses for the time they spent waiting to go through a security screening at the end of the day. The workers say the process, meant to prevent theft, can take as long as 25 minutes. Justice Clarence Thomas, writing for the court, said the screenings were not “integral and indispensable” to the workers’ jobs, which involved retrieving products from warehouse shelves and packaging them for delivery to Amazon’s customers. That meant, he said, that no extra pay was required. The decision was a big loss for workers challenging the security checks, which are common among retailers. According to a brief filed by the agency, there have been 13 class-action lawsuits against Amazon and other companies involving more than 400,000 plaintiffs and seeking hundreds of millions of dollars. Continue reading the main story RELATED COVERAGE Court Hears Case on Pay for Amazon Workers Screened After WorkOCT. 8, 2014 A dispute between Jesse Busk and a temp agency he worked for is to be heard next week by the United States Supreme Court.Justices Weighing Wages for After-Work ScreeningsOCT. 3, 2014 The case that the Supreme Court ruled on Tuesday turned on the meaning of a 1947 law, the Portal-to-Portal Act, which says that companies need not pay for “preliminary” or “postliminary” activities, meaning ones that take place before and after the workday proper. ... The case decided Tuesday was brought by Jesse Busk, who worked in a Las Vegas warehouse, and Laurie Castro, who worked at one in Fenley, Nev. They sued Integrity Staffing Solutions, the temp agency, seeking to represent a class of workers and to be paid for the time it took to remove their wallets, keys and belts and to pass through metal detectors. The plaintiffs said the screenings would not have taken long had the agency added more security screeners or staggered the ends of work shifts. In practice, they said, the waits approached half an hour. Amazon has disputed that assertion. In a statement in October, when the case was argued, an Amazon spokeswoman said “employees walk through postshift security screening with little or no wait.” The United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, in San Francisco, had allowed the case to proceed, saying the screenings were for the company’s benefit and were a necessary part of the workers’ jobs. That was enough, the appeals court said, to make the screenings “integral and indispensable.” Justice Thomas disagreed, saying the appeals court had “erred by focusing on whether an employer required a particular activity.” The right test, he said, was whether the activity “is tied to the productive work that the employee is employed to perform.”[/quote] [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/business/supreme-court-rules-against-worker-pay-for-security-screenings.html]NYT[/url]

Ha, who even needs workers rights eh US?

Sounds like spoiled workers who just want that extra half hour of pay. [editline]10th December 2014[/editline] for doing no work

[QUOTE=bravehat;46685743]Ha, who even needs workers rights eh US?[/QUOTE] "The Supreme Court on Tuesday ruled unanimously that a temp agency" "The workers say the process, meant to prevent theft, can take as long as 25 minutes." "hey sued Integrity Staffing Solutions, the temp agency, seeking to represent a class of workers and to be paid for the time it took to [B]remove their[/B] [B]wallets, keys and belts and to pass through metal detectors[/B]." If that takes 25 minutes for that you are doing something HIGHLY wrong.

[QUOTE=Medevila;46685746]"as long as" indicating that isn't the average length, and will assume that's only in special circumstances unless somebody can prove otherwise[/QUOTE] "The plaintiffs said the screenings would not have taken long had the agency added more security screeners or staggered the ends of work shifts. [B]In practice, they said, the waits approached half an hour.[/B]"

Oh please it does not take 25 minutes to go through the security. Sony has similar securities and it only takes us like a extra 5-10min to get out.

If the screenings are not "integral and indispensable" to their job then why are employees required to go through them?

[QUOTE=cody8295;46685762]Sounds like spoiled workers who just want that extra half hour of pay. [editline]10th December 2014[/editline] for doing no work[/QUOTE] I'm there because my employer told me to be. If my employer tells me to do something, I'm employed. If I'm employed, I'm getting paid. If you expect me to do something, then I expect you to pay me. That's how employment works. If my employer tells me to go stand around for 25 minutes, buying my time, then I expect to get paid for 25 minutes. It's not a worker's prerogative to only get paid for production, it's an employer's prerogative to reimburse a worker for their time and productive capabilities. Plus opportunity costs and all that which aren't getting reimbursed.

I worked at one of the biggest amazon warehouses (1.2 million sq ft) and the security checks only took 25 minutes if you were a dumb fuck and brought your phone in and it was big enough to set off the metal detector/ brought in a keyring with 500 keys on it. The policy is to not bring in anything you dont fucking need and that we sell. That said, me and every one of my buddies walked through the metal detector every day for the 1.5 months i was there with my keyring that has my car key, house key and my locker key on it and it didnt get set it off. There was a second area where if you beeped you were brought to and you were wanded and searched and asked on some of the things you had on you. Bring in your phone? unlock it show them recent phone calls was standard procedure to show its actually fucking yours. Dont or do it multiple times and they take a picture of your serial number and run it through the [B]entire[/B] warehouses supply of that make and model of that phone. Then you get a warning not to bring it in again or you could be suspended/ whatever. Literally i brought in a brown bag every day for lunch all i did was open up the empty bag at the end of the day slide my silverware down the side to not set off the metal detector and walk by after picking everything through. Now if you were dumb fuck enough to set it off and [B]keep walking[/B] then you deserve getting brought into asset protections office and getting asked questions.

[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];46685789']"The plaintiffs said the screenings would not have taken long had the agency added more security screeners or staggered the ends of work shifts. [B]In practice, they said, the waits approached half an hour.[/B]"[/QUOTE] It's honestly too hard to tell whom is right without seeing the security cam footage that was most likely shown at the hearings.

[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;46685830]It's honestly too hard to tell whom is right without seeing the security cam footage that was most likely shown at the hearings.[/QUOTE] This is true. Regardless, the decision is disturbing. This basically says an employer [i]could[/i], regardless of whether one had, hold an employee for 25 minutes (in theory an indefinite amount of time) to do a required action as mandated by their employment contract without compensation for the employee.

[QUOTE=Cheeseist;46685826]I worked at one of the biggest amazon warehouses (1.2 million sq ft) and the security checks only took 25 minutes if you were a dumb fuck and brought your phone in and it was big enough to set off the metal detector/ brought in a keyring with 500 keys on it. The policy is to not bring in anything you dont fucking need and that we sell. That said, me and every one of my buddies walked through the metal detector every day for the 1.5 months i was there with my keyring that has my car key, house key and my locker key on it and it didnt get set it off. There was a second area where if you beeped you were brought to and you were wanded and searched and asked on some of the things you had on you. Bring in your phone? unlock it show them recent phone calls was standard procedure to show its actually fucking yours. Dont or do it multiple times and they take a picture of your serial number and run it through the [B]entire[/B] warehouses supply of that make and model of that phone. Then you get a warning not to bring it in again or you could be suspended/ whatever. Literally i brought in a brown bag every day for lunch all i did was open up the empty bag at the end of the day slide my silverware down the side to not set off the metal detector and walk by after picking everything through. Now if you were dumb fuck enough to set it off and [B]keep walking[/B] then you deserve getting brought into asset protections office and getting asked questions.[/QUOTE] Even if the check took a minute per person, if the temp agency has like 30 staff who all finish their shift at the same time (as decided by the temp agency) then whoever is at the tail end of that has to wait around 30 minutes, unpaid, for something that is required for their continued employment, and that's if everything goes to plan.

[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;46685769]"The Supreme Court on Tuesday ruled unanimously that a temp agency" "The workers say the process, meant to prevent theft, can take as long as 25 minutes." "hey sued Integrity Staffing Solutions, the temp agency, seeking to represent a class of workers and to be paid for the time it took to [B]remove their[/B] [B]wallets, keys and belts and to pass through metal detectors[/B]." If that takes 25 minutes for that you are doing something HIGHLY wrong.[/QUOTE] Seriously. I dunno about you guys but I can take off my belt and remove my wallet and keys from my pocket in like 5 seconds while walking. It sounds like a case of "All these people that work here and have to do this thing every day somehow forget they need to do this every day and hold up the line while they scramble at the metal detector to remove their metal" If I worked at a place that did this I'd slap anyone that worked there for more than a week and didn't walk up to the detector with their belt, wallet, and keys in their hands ready to drop in the bin.

[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];46685854']This is true. Regardless, the decision is disturbing. This basically says an employer [i]could[/i], regardless of whether one had, hold an employee for 25 minutes (in theory an indefinite amount of time) to do a required action as mandated by their employment contract without compensation for the employee.[/QUOTE] Depends, the article is saying they are Temp and working through a contracting agency and this is one of the policies of the contract. So it does not imply that an employer can hold them for indefinite time without compensation.

[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;46685889]Depends, the article is saying they are Temp and working through a contracting agency and this is one of the policies of the contract. So it does not imply that an employer can hold them for indefinite time without compensation.[/QUOTE] The justification the court cited was a law, the Portal-to-Portal, which they previously interpreted, which states that, basically, unless the action is an integral part of the job (in the case of P-to-P, walking from entrance to work station or vice versa) then one doesn't need to be compensated. Which means security checkpoints and such are not required to be payable time. Regardless of their temp status or contract obligations.

[QUOTE=cody8295;46685762]Sounds like spoiled workers who just want that extra half hour of pay. [editline]10th December 2014[/editline] for doing no work[/QUOTE] Amazon warehouses are well known for their easy pace and cushy working conditions.

[QUOTE=Camundongo;46685878]Even if the check took a minute per person, if the temp agency has like 30 staff who all finish their shift at the same time (as decided by the temp agency) then whoever is at the tail end of that has to wait around 30 minutes, unpaid, for something that is required for their continued employment, and that's if everything goes to plan.[/QUOTE] thats the thing, we had 5 metal detectors at the main exit/entrance and 3 at the seasonal, ap was sitting nearby in case someone beeped but otherwise there is 2000~ people leaving at the same time at my shifts because its different departments and its literally walk through the detector with a cup on the bottom put your shit in there. Fuck there was even 2 express lanes where you just walk through. There wasn't TSA level stuff and we were the #3rd safest in the world and #1 in the united states i believe. You only got pulled to the side if you were retarded and brought shit in. Sounds like the people in the article are being smart asses bringing in there phone and stuff. There's lockers on the other side to put your shit in with locks. Dont bring your shit in and you can literally walk out with 0 trouble, its more like 0 seconds per person and 10 minutes per AP search per person. if theres 100 assholes at once that brought in there phone then no shit, i work as a cashier/ self checkout person now and we get lines because guess fucking what, sometimes theres people that have 200 items at once and theres multiple people and we didnt schedule 5 cashiers at 8am in the morning, we dont get that many till the afternoon.

If a temp agency is fielding this complain, it's for a very specific reason. Temp agencies pay their employees, generally speaking, for their entire day aside from the legally mandated lunch breaks that no one pays for. If the temp agency is paying their workers for that half hour, and not being reimbursed by amazon for that time as amazon cites that it is both not a very long wait what so ever, and that it isn't an integral part of the job and thus doesn't require payment, then reasonably the temp agency is upset they're paying their workers for time they don't need to be, and aren't being reimbursed for. The temp agency just simply doesn't want to be paying for a period of time they don't feel they have to, and don't get reimbursed for. If that's the case it's understandable why the case would rule the way it did, as temp agencies aren't looking out for their workers as much as themselves and aren't classified as job creators by any sense of the word. Their legal complaints aren't so strong from where i'm sitting, but then I'm just an armchair lawyer.

[QUOTE=Cheeseist;46685826]I worked at one of the biggest amazon warehouses (1.2 million sq ft) and the security checks only took 25 minutes if you were a dumb fuck and brought your phone in and it was big enough to set off the metal detector/ brought in a keyring with 500 keys on it. The policy is to not bring in anything you dont fucking need and that we sell. That said, me and every one of my buddies walked through the metal detector every day for the 1.5 months i was there with my keyring that has my car key, house key and my locker key on it and it didnt get set it off. There was a second area where if you beeped you were brought to and you were wanded and searched and asked on some of the things you had on you. Bring in your phone? unlock it show them recent phone calls was standard procedure to show its actually fucking yours. Dont or do it multiple times and they take a picture of your serial number and run it through the [B]entire[/B] warehouses supply of that make and model of that phone. Then you get a warning not to bring it in again or you could be suspended/ whatever. Literally i brought in a brown bag every day for lunch all i did was open up the empty bag at the end of the day slide my silverware down the side to not set off the metal detector and walk by after picking everything through. Now if you were dumb fuck enough to set it off and [B]keep walking[/B] then you deserve getting brought into asset protections office and getting asked questions.[/QUOTE] These places really are nightmares; if you ever want to know what it feels like to really be an easily-replaceable cog in a corporate machine, go work for Amazon. Hell, for Orientation they explicitly said the working conditions are so threadbare and strenuous because that's how Amazon can give such amazing deals to their customers (this was coming from an ex-Airforce officer who, and I quote, "was ready to pack up and leave three days in.") But yeah, it takes a bit to set these things off; I used to put my keys and such into those yellow boxes they give you for the metal detectors and, after about three weeks of doing this, realized the keys don't go off if you go through the Express lane.

[QUOTE=Cheeseist;46685952]thats the thing, we had 5 metal detectors at the main exit/entrance and 3 at the seasonal, ap was sitting nearby in case someone beeped but otherwise there is 2000~ people leaving at the same time at my shifts because its different departments and its literally walk through the detector with a cup on the bottom put your shit in there. Fuck there was even 2 express lanes where you just walk through. There wasn't TSA level stuff and we were the #3rd safest in the world and #1 in the united states i believe. You only got pulled to the side if you were retarded and brought shit in. Sounds like the people in the article are being smart asses bringing in there phone and stuff. There's lockers on the other side to put your shit in with locks. Dont bring your shit in and you can literally walk out with 0 trouble, its more like 0 seconds per person and 10 minutes per AP search per person. if theres 100 assholes at once that brought in there phone then no shit, i work as a cashier/ self checkout person now and we get lines because guess fucking what, sometimes theres people that have 200 items at once and theres multiple people and we didnt schedule 5 cashiers at 8am in the morning, we dont get that many till the afternoon.[/QUOTE] Fair enough. Were you employed as a agency worker for Amazon? I work for a retailer and when we employ agency staff (normally for stuff like new branch openings, refits, etc.) they keep all their stuff on them (like phones, wallets, what have you) because they don't get lockers like the in-store staff, though I guess your lockers were probably like the ones in swimming pool changing rooms (i.e anyone can use one, they're not allocated).

[quote]The case that the Supreme Court ruled on Tuesday turned on the meaning of a 1947 law, the Portal-to-Portal Act, which says that companies need not pay for “preliminary” or “postliminary” activities, meaning ones that take place before and after the workday proper. The Supreme Court interpreted the law in 1956 in Steiner v. Mitchell to require pay only for tasks that are an “integral and indispensable part of the principal activities for which covered workmen are employed.”[/quote] Reasonable.

The Roberts Court: You can always count on 'em to fuck the little guy! :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46686050]The Roberts Court: You can always count on 'em to fuck the little guy! :rolleyes:[/QUOTE] ya but in this case, (ha i punned), they don't have any concrete figure to demonstrate a large amount of time spent in the security checkouts, just that on average it felt long, now if they had screenings that took hours to do i'd understand, but they aren't substantially burdened by this, they could have prevented this though by either giving employees facilities to store their personal belongings or better educate their workers on what should be brought in with them. sort of reflects the laissez faire business world when something as trivial as this which SHOULD have been covered with by improving employee-employer relations gets all the way to the supreme court

Am I the only one with the apparently unpopular opinion that workers should actually get paid for their commute time too? There's quite a few clear benefits, not the least of which being more money in the hands of the poorest in the economy (therefore stimulating demand). It would also push companies to allow for more telecommuting options as they'd now be paying for that time that the worker is sitting in traffic, thereby reducing overall road congestion + lowering emissions. Not that this would ever happen in the good ol' USA :v:

[QUOTE=Kybalt;46686298]Am I the only one with the apparently unpopular opinion that workers should actually get paid for their commute time too? There's quite a few clear benefits, not the least of which being more money in the hands of the poorest in the economy (therefore stimulating demand). It would also push companies to allow for more telecommuting options as they'd now be paying for that time that the worker is sitting in traffic, thereby reducing overall road congestion + lowering emissions. Not that this would ever happen in the good ol' USA :v:[/QUOTE] This would be horrible for any company anywhere since there are so many unknonwn variables that can change and not everyone is an honest worker.

[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;46686364]This would be horrible for any company anywhere since there are so many unknonwn variables that can change and not everyone is an honest worker.[/QUOTE] A companies bottom line being on the chopping block is the only way they can be motivated to actually work towards fixing things. I don't know if kybalts idea would work but if they were put to task to figure out effective ways of increasing worker satisfaction and pay, to in the end, help themselves, they'd figure out a way. Starting with the idea not all people are honest workers, you have to ask yourself, if you treat them like children, what attitudes can that breed in them. I think that most people are honest workers and working from the idea most people are is better than the inverse.

[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;46686364]This would be horrible for any company anywhere since there are so many unknonwn variables that can change and not everyone is an honest worker.[/QUOTE] I mean yeah you'd be right if you did the stupidest and most inefficient thing possible and had all workers report their commute time at the beginning and end of every day. But that would be absolutely moronic. It would just be factored in to your pay when you get hired. 'Oh I see you put this address as your home let me just pull up google maps or the dept of transportation or something. oh it says traffic is an average 1 hr each way. we're going to pay you for those two hours a day on days you come to work'. What unknown variables are you smoking? [editline]10th December 2014[/editline] Its like, we idolize the free market, but when there's a solution that the free market can actually solve everyone suddenly is confused and unsure that it would ever work.

[QUOTE=Kybalt;46686688]I mean yeah you'd be right if you did the stupidest and most inefficient thing possible and had all workers report their commute time at the beginning and end of every day. But that would be absolutely moronic. It would just be factored in to your pay when you get hired. 'Oh I see you put this address as your home let me just pull up google maps or the dept of transportation or something. oh it says traffic is an average 1 hr each way. we're going to pay you for those two hours a day on days you come to work'.[/quote] That would discriminate workers from smaller businesses making them less hirable. "Oh you live far away? Well we can't pay for that everyday, sorry" [quote]What unknown variables are you smoking? [/QUOTE] Road was icy had to drive slower, Car wreck causing interstate congestion prolonging the time it takes to get to work, etc. Just negotiate better when it comes to salary to factor that in.

[QUOTE=Kybalt;46686298]Am I the only one with the apparently unpopular opinion that workers should actually get paid for their commute time too? There's quite a few clear benefits, not the least of which being more money in the hands of the poorest in the economy (therefore stimulating demand). It would also push companies to allow for more telecommuting options as they'd now be paying for that time that the worker is sitting in traffic, thereby reducing overall road congestion + lowering emissions. Not that this would ever happen in the good ol' USA :v:[/QUOTE] I absolutely agree. If you are doing anything work-related that occupies your time and prevents you from doing other things, IMO you should get paid for it. But, of course, it'll never happen.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46687066]I absolutely agree. If you are doing anything work-related that occupies your time and prevents you from doing other things, IMO you should get paid for it. But, of course, it'll never happen.[/QUOTE]I think it's a bit extreme to pay for commute time. But security checks definitely should be compensated for.