Surgeons resign after putting bowel bacteria in terminal cancer patient's brains. - Polidicks

[img]http://media.sacbee.com/smedia/2013/08/24/22/05/jwvIZ.Xl.4.jpeg[/img] [quote] Two UC Davis neurosurgeons who intentionally infected three brain-cancer patients with bowel bacteria have resigned their posts after the university found they had "deliberately circumvented" internal policies, "defied directives" from top leaders and sidestepped federal regulations, according to newly released university documents. Dr. J. Paul Muizelaar, 66, the former head of the neurosurgery department, and his colleague, Dr. Rudolph J. Schrot, violated the university's faculty code of conduct with their experimental work, one internal investigation concluded.... [/quote] READ THIS BEFORE YOU MAKE UNINFORMED COMMENTS ABOUT CONSENT:[quote]• A former top administrator said he believed the doctors went "shopping for approval" and were "doing all they could to get around" the formal approval process. A physician who served on the research oversight board said the surgeons seemed to be "gaming" the system to bypass any institutional rejection or skepticism of their plans. • Muizelaar and Schrot did not complete a study on rats before they began treating the three human patients, despite an FDA directive in 2008 that "animal studies will be necessary prior to entering into the clinic with your proposed therapy," according to an email to Schrot from an FDA official. When asked by a compliance investigator why animal trials were not done first, Schrot allegedly responded that such testing would take "10 years … his entire career," one internal review states. The investigator found Schrot's "eagerness to proceed" to be concerning and his actions "reckless." • One university investigator questioned whether the doctors ever would have been able to get federal approval of their concept. According to one report, Schrot's grant application to the National Institutes of Health to study the bacterial treatment was rejected, with NIH commenting in 2009 that "(t)his is a very poorly developed scientific proposal that lacks feasibility." The NIH thought it unlikely that university or federal regulators would allow the introduction of live bacteria directly into patients, the report states. • Both doctors have repeatedly stressed they were anticipating no financial benefit from the surgeries, an assertion that one university investigator believed to be true. However, the investigator noted in her report that the neurosurgeons began the process to patent their procedure before Patient 3's surgery in March 2011, yet failed to disclose their "potential financial interest" on the woman's consent form, as required by UC policy.[/quote] [url]http://www.sacbee.com/2013/08/25/5678851/uc-davis-surgeons-resign-after.html[/url]

[QUOTE]All three patients consented to the procedures in 2010 and 2011. Two of the patients died within weeks of their surgeries, while the other survived more than a year after being infected. [/QUOTE] They were all going to die soon anyways but this still feels unethical. Them consenting makes me unsure. Doesn't seem like they found out much from this and it doesn't look like it did much for the patients.

Okay, you insert poo into the brains and then leave. Were those years of education really worth it?

Resigned? They should be arrested good god

UC Davis, shit, that's really close to me. Oh, shit, they consented. Crazy.

So the put bacteria in there to stimulate immune response? Doesn't seem like that would help at all

Quoting this because it's kinda important. [quote][b]All three patients consented to the procedures in 2010 and 2011.[/b][/quote] If someone was going to die anyways I could see them consenting to a possibly more damaging procedure in the interest of research.

[QUOTE=lintz;41967115]Resigned? They should be arrested good god[/QUOTE] The patients consented. All around this is fucking weird.

[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;41967195]The patients consented. All around this is fucking weird.[/QUOTE] basically because research and innovative cures have different guidelines (basically if you go and patent your process while doing it). "However, the investigator noted in her report that the neurosurgeons began the process to patent their procedure" then it's considered research then fda trials are required and they didn't disclose the financial interest in the consent form for patient 3 the punishment is fair imo

Did nobody read the article? All the patients signed consent forms and were informed of the SEVERE dangers of the surgery. It was left as a last resort. In one case it actually succeeded in extending the life of the patient an extra year beyond the typical life expectancy of someone with that disease. [QUOTE]The procedure in question involved three patients described in documents only as Patients 1, 2 and 3 – two middle-aged women and one man who had a common enemy: glioblastoma. For anyone unlucky enough to be diagnosed with the highly malignant brain tumor, the prognosis is dismal. Median survival is less than 15 months. Muizelaar and Schrot called their novel approach "probiotic intracranial therapy," or the introduction of live bowel bacteria, Enterobacter aerogenes, directly into their patients' brains or bone flaps. The doctors theorized that an infection might stimulate the patients' immune systems and prolong their lives. The first patient lived about 5 1/2 weeks. The second survived another year, an outcome that buoyed the doctors and seemed to bolster their theory, they said. The institutional trouble began in March 2011, when a newly diagnosed third patient developed sepsis, became unresponsive and died two weeks after being deliberately infected. The university's first internal investigation soon followed.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;41967195]The patients consented. All around this is fucking weird.[/QUOTE] If you had terminal brain cancer you'd probably consider anything...

[QUOTE=Joey90;41967255]If you had terminal brain cancer you'd probably consider anything...[/QUOTE] I'd consider suicide.

[QUOTE=Joey90;41967255]If you had terminal brain cancer you'd probably consider anything...[/QUOTE] I'd rather just die and give my family or a charity the rest of my money. But hey, that's me.

[QUOTE=lintz;41967115]Resigned? They should be arrested good god[/QUOTE] It doesn't look like they had evil intentions and the people consented.

[QUOTE=catbarf;41967182]Quoting this because it's kinda important. If someone was going to die anyways I could see them consenting to a possibly more damaging procedure in the interest of research.[/QUOTE] Dude, this is a clearcut example of unethical researchers taking advantage of desperate people, as was shown in said article. Fucks sake, they didn't even finish animal work first. Don't skarka for it.

[QUOTE=lintz;41967115]Resigned? They should be arrested good god[/QUOTE] I did not read the article and made a snap judgement I apologise.

[QUOTE=lintz;41967399]I did not read the article and made a snap judgement I apologise.[/QUOTE] Nope, your response was accurate. Consent doesn't equal ethical in medical experimentation.

this is something you'd see on scrubs [QUOTE=muffinmastah;41967139]So the put bacteria in there to stimulate immune response? Doesn't seem like that would help at all[/QUOTE] sounds like a good idea if your drunk I mean I have no damn medical training but I'm very certain this is a bad idea. Shit doesn't belong in the brain.

[QUOTE=J!NX;41967443]this is something you'd see on scrubs sounds like a good idea if you're drunk[/QUOTE] Besides, what kind of immune system are you talking about? There's loads of different branches. Face it, this is a case of cranks butchering people for the sake of their ill-thought out schemes.

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41967477]Besides, what kind of immune system are you talking about? There's loads of different branches. Face it, this is a case of cranks butchering people for the sake of their ill-thought out schemes.[/QUOTE] the only way I think this would work is if you used a weakened version, like any vaccine, then slowly "Built up" the bacteria resistance. I mean, shit, infection is a very serious thing. you have to be very, very careful. A very tiny cut alone is enough to kill someone. what the hell is bowel bacteria going to do against cancer ANYWAYS?

[QUOTE=J!NX;41967499]the only way I think this would work is if you used a weakened version, like any vaccine, then slowly "Built up" the bacteria resistance.[/QUOTE] Then all you get is a bog-standard memory cell response. There were trying some dumbshit (no pun intended) scheme to make the immune system attack the cancer cells - which is stupid, as this is bacteria and falls under completely different jurisdiction from the cells which actually terminate damaged cells. Look at this shit: [quote]• A former top administrator said he believed the doctors went "shopping for approval" and were "doing all they could to get around" the formal approval process. A physician who served on the research oversight board said the surgeons seemed to be "gaming" the system to bypass any institutional rejection or skepticism of their plans. • Muizelaar and Schrot did not complete a study on rats before they began treating the three human patients, despite an FDA directive in 2008 that "animal studies will be necessary prior to entering into the clinic with your proposed therapy," according to an email to Schrot from an FDA official. When asked by a compliance investigator why animal trials were not done first, Schrot allegedly responded that such testing would take "10 years … his entire career," one internal review states. The investigator found Schrot's "eagerness to proceed" to be concerning and his actions "reckless." • One university investigator questioned whether the doctors ever would have been able to get federal approval of their concept. According to one report, Schrot's grant application to the National Institutes of Health to study the bacterial treatment was rejected, with NIH commenting in 2009 that "(t)his is a very poorly developed scientific proposal that lacks feasibility." The NIH thought it unlikely that university or federal regulators would allow the introduction of live bacteria directly into patients, the report states. • Both doctors have repeatedly stressed they were anticipating no financial benefit from the surgeries, an assertion that one university investigator believed to be true. However, the investigator noted in her report that the neurosurgeons began the process to patent their procedure before Patient 3's surgery in March 2011, yet failed to disclose their "potential financial interest" on the woman's consent form, as required by UC policy.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41967562]Then all you get is a bog-standard memory cell response. There were trying some dumbshit (no pun intended) scheme to make the immune system attack the cancer cells - which is stupid, as this is bacteria and falls under completely different jurisdiction from the cells which actually terminate damaged cells. Look at this shit:[/QUOTE] I don't get it, how can you train bacteria to attack cancer cells? Wouldn't something far more chemical or man made (obviously engineering cells is pretty man made) be better? I would rather they put prototype nano-bots in my brain. Because, lets face it, Bacteria mutates, sometimes into very weak or very strong infections. also, [QUOTE]"doing all they could to get around" the formal approval process. [/QUOTE] wow that's just a great job well done if your idea is too crazy or stupid just get around the system stopping it [QUOTE]• Muizelaar and Schrot did not complete a study on rats before they began treating the three human patients, [/QUOTE] the best part :v: if your shitty idea isn't even fully tested yet, bypass the system DESPITE THAT I don't care if testing would take your entire career. its better to have a career, you know? [QUOTE]Schrot's grant application to the National Institutes of Health to study the bacterial treatment was rejected, with NIH commenting in 2009 that "(t)his is a very poorly developed scientific proposal that lacks feasibility." The NIH thought it unlikely that university or federal regulators would allow the introduction of live bacteria directly into patients, the report states.[/QUOTE] What is this? Sacred Heart Hospital? if your idea is too crazy or stupid just get around the system stopping it, if your shitty idea isn't even fully tested yet, bypass the system DESPITE THAT, even if they call it a poorly developed idea, STILL DO IT ANYWAYS.

[QUOTE=J!NX;41967643]I don't get it, how can you train bacteria to attack cancer cells[/QUOTE] What I am referring to is a specific subtype of your immune cells - B-Cell line - who's role is to provide fast response to recurring threats. Think reservists Edit: this image give you a potted idea of the force organization: [img]http://www.virtualmedicalcentre.com/uploads/VMC/Anatomy/Immune_system_large.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41967389]Dude, this is a clearcut example of unethical researchers taking advantage of desperate people, as was shown in said article. Fucks sake, they didn't even finish animal work first. Don't skarka for it.[/QUOTE] It may be unethical, but it's still a damn sight better than deliberately infecting unwilling victims with lethal bacteria for the sake of research.

[QUOTE=catbarf;41967739]It may be unethical, but it's still a damn sight better than deliberately infecting unwilling victims with lethal bacteria for the sake of research.[/QUOTE] In some ways it's worse. They preyed upon desperate people with with untested schemes. Just read the bit which I posted twice.

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41967769]In some ways it's worse. They preyed upon desperate people with with untested schemes. Just read the bit which I posted twice.[/QUOTE] I never said it was justified. But I am seriously not seeing how you can argue that it's [i]worse[/i] that they at least had the consent of terminally-ill patients rather than pulling some Mengelian shit on healthy or unwitting patients.

nice one shit-for-brains

[QUOTE=catbarf;41967797]I never said it was justified. But I am seriously not seeing how you can argue that it's [i]worse[/i] that they at least had the consent of terminally-ill patients rather than pulling some Mengelian shit on healthy or unwitting patients.[/QUOTE] Can you not see how damn evil testing on someone who's desperate like that when you haven't even done it with rats - at best likely giving them false hope, at worst hastening their death - would be?

Do these people have shit for brains!!

[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;41967195]The patients consented. All around this is fucking weird.[/QUOTE] I'm sure they were convinced that there was hope in the procedure. Maybe something along the lines of "Hey we came up with this great procedure, we think it might get rid of the brain cancer. It's the only idea we have that might work. Do you want to try out your only hope of living past the brain cancer?" People can easily be desperate enough to try anything if they are lead to believe there is a chance.