Redwall: the Evillest Children's Book Series of All Time
125 replies, posted
That's right folks. Redwall is evil. I know what you're thinking: they're just harmless adventure stories with cute talking animals! Well guess what: [b]they're not[/b]. They are [b]teaching children to be evil[/b].
DISCLAIMER: I read hell of these books when I was a little kid, I thought they were pretty awesome. I lacked the critical literary eye that I have since come to develop, but even then I felt something was amiss...
[img]http://images.wikia.com/redwall/images/d/d4/MTWHardcover.jpg[/img]
[i]Pictured: a huge asshole[/i]
If you're not familiar with the Redwall series, it is about a bunch of mice, squirrels, hedgehogs, badgers, otters, moles, and other assorted woodland creatures who live in a big abbey with red walls called "Redwall Abbey" (whoa). Although they call each other "brother" and "sister" and wear habits, and are ruled by Abbots and Abbesses, for some reason they never actually get around to practicing any kind of religion (although the heroes are given conspicuously Biblical names). Unless that religion is feasts, because they really like feasts. The books spent pages upon pages describing all the food they eat. This is considered a selling point by the books' fans. Every book, a whole bunch of weasels, stoats (basically a weasel), ferrets, rats, foxes, and sometimes lizards form a giant army and attack Redwall Abbey. The denizens of the abbey brutally slaughter them and have a feast to celebrate.
Sounds like a rollicking good time. Only one problem: they were written by an anglo-fascist named Brian Jacques.
[img]http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2011-02/59414392.jpg[/img]
[i]True story: he so hated foreigners that he insisted that people pronounce his obviously-french surname as "Jakes"[/i]
I shall now support my contentions, first and foremost, with this quote from The Official Brian Jacques FAQ:
[quote][b]Will you ever have any really good vermin or bad woodlanders in any of your stories?[/b]
No! The goodies are good and the baddies are BAD, no grey areas.[/quote]
"Vermin" of course is the term that the protagonists use to refer to the species of weasels, rats, ferrets, etc. collectively. This is depicted as normal and not at all morally reprehensible behavior. Beyond that, the quote pretty much speaks for itself. Not only are all "bad" species genetically wired to be evil, all the "good" species are genetically wired to be good.
Now, the obvious first problem with that is that saying your parentage makes you evil is totally racist. Obviously. God help any poor child trying to apply the worldview put forward in Redwall to real life. But it's so obvious that it trumps another, more insidious conclusion--if all the mice are, by definition, good, everything they DO is similarly, by definition, good. Therefore, any cruelty they inflict on the "vermin" (and believe me, these are far from the most merciful mice you have encountered) is automatically justified. Now imagine how this lesson translates to a kid's real life--they are the Good Guy, anyone who stands in their way must be evil, and anything they do to get what they want is right and just. Almost as if...they were divinely ordained as the Best People In The World. So, once you add the God part, it's basically colonial-era English Imperialism, dressed up with cute animals and romanticized to within an inch of its life. Holy shit.
[img]http://www.pet-care-portal.com/images/ferret.jpg[/img]
[i]Pictured: vermin, to be slaughtered[/i]
That brings us to the next problem, and one where the philosophy of the Redwall books diverges from that of English Imperialism to, believe it or not, become MORE evil. Where the British Empire contended that the Lesser Races were tragically deficient in culture and must be shown the ways of civilization, to better their lives, the people of Redwall are more than happy to hide within their walls with a wealth of food and supplies while the Lesser Races of the outside world wallow in poverty. Then, when the starving and resentful masses attempt to take the Abbey by force, its residents wag their fingers condescendingly before brutally massacring them with boiling water, swords, wasps, fire, and more. And then, to rub it in the faces of any who might have survived, they have a feast.
Now, wait, you might say--Redwall is a place of peace! They are the underdogs being attacked by evil armies of weasels! Well, the answer is no, shut up, you are stupid. Because while Redwall might claim to be "peaceful," it is right down the road from Salamandastron, a big mountain that houses a fascist badger dictator and his army of elite rabbit shock troops, who patrol the entire region with the express purpose of fucking up weasels. As Salamandastron is undeniably the biggest locus of power in the entire canonical world, and it rules its territory with military force, we can safely conclude that the "vermin" are a repressed underclass, regularly brutalized by tittering, self-righteous mice.
[img]http://www.chukw.com/Critters/Redwall_Detail_3.jpg[/img]
[i]Another victory for the forces of good! Look how happy they are[/i]
Now, as any right-thinking person will realize, this doesn't add up. Evil-by-birth bad guys live shitty lives until they are killed by Good-by-birth good guys, who do nothing to alleviate their suffering, but are happy to chop their heads off. Something's not right here. That's why I believe I have discovered an alternate reading of Redwall--possibly the most correct reading, as it brings everything into perspective. It is a context in which everything in all the Redwall books makes sense. Here it is:
Redwall Abbey is actually a resource-mongering golden child of the badger/hare military ruling class, which maintains an apartheid against disfavored species of animals. The books themselves are not accurate accounts of the events they purport to depict; rather, they are propaganda pieces devised by the mice in order to reinforce their delusions of moral purity.
[img]http://www.batguys.com/images/mice/mouse.jpg[/img]
The bastards.
Oh come on, that's a bit of a stretch.
[QUOTE=BigOwl;33793545]Oh come on, that's a bit of a stretch.[/QUOTE]
Owls are evil in Redwall. That means you're wrong, you fucking owl.
[editline]19th December 2011[/editline]
Although if you think you know an eviller children's book series I'd be happy to hear it!
[QUOTE=TH89;33793553]Owls are evil in Redwall. That means you're wrong, you fucking owl.
[editline]19th December 2011[/editline]
Although if you think you know an eviller children's book series I'd be happy to hear it![/QUOTE]
At least I'm not a dinosaur whose a member of the KKK
[QUOTE=TH89;33793553]
Although if you think you know an eviller children's book series I'd be happy to hear it![/QUOTE]
[img]http://justkickingstones.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/cover-clip-hitler-youth-0674014960.jpg[/img]
/thread
Now, I don't remember whenever I saw a rather resembling piece of information within Facepunch or Cracked, but it appears to match it quite well. Although, luckily enough, the series is terrible in itself.
[QUOTE=BigOwl;33793561]At least I'm not a dinosaur whose a member of the KKK[/QUOTE]
Fair cop.
[QUOTE=gufu;33793564]Now, I don't remember whenever I saw a rather resembling piece of information within Facepunch or Cracked, but it appears to match it quite well. Although, luckily enough, the series is terrible in itself.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's terrible! Jacques was a pretty good stylist (although when I try to read them now, the corny bullshit about Dibbuns and feasts and all the badguys having names like Bloodtooth and Deathclaw really put me off). They're well-written and very entertaining, they're just also evil.
Now that you mention it, I think I did. But I'm pretty sure this version is better. I have a much better grasp of the historical and philosophical underpinnings of the work now.
[QUOTE=TH89;33793589]Now that you mention it, I think I did. But I'm pretty sure this version is better.[/QUOTE]
Should be the Evil Redwall Childrens series V2
I've always wanted to check out the Redwall series, but never managed to actually look for a copy. Is it really as good as others have said?
I swear I saw a thread just like this one some time ago.
Oh well, I may read this books and see if I can't point out the notable evil parts.
The way the author tries to show accents in these books used to make me want to smash my head against a wall.
[QUOTE=TAU!;33793663]I've always wanted to check out the Redwall series, but never managed to actually look for a copy. Is it really as good as others have said?[/QUOTE]
If you're over the age of 14 it might be too late to be able to take it that seriously. You never know though!
[editline]19th December 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Uberslug;33793648]I dont think it matters[/QUOTE]
Of course it matters, it is teaching children to vote for the BNP.
Huh.
[img]http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/redwall.png[/img]
Many "classic" fantasy series actually have some themes that could be seen to be similar in terms of "evil by brith". I think it's not so much intended by the author, just more of a way of setting up a certain enemy without too much trouble.
children's books that are written by fascists are my favorite books
because it's like "you sick fuck"
I feel like I've read this exact post before you know.
I thought the redwall series were pretty cool when I was young, maybe I should revisit them again just to see how badly influential they really are.
[QUOTE=Sumap;33793689]Many "classic" fantasy series actually have some themes that could be seen to be similar in terms of "evil by brith". I think it's not so much intended by the author, just more of a way of setting up a certain enemy without too much trouble.[/QUOTE]
Laziness is probably the best possible reason to do it, but it's still a pretty bad one. I mean, Tolkien put mind-bogglingly immense amounts of work into world-building for The Lord of the Rings, so clearly taking the trouble wasn't something he had a problem with. Even Jacques could probably invent some villains with some depth in half the time it takes him to write a feast sequence.
I think it's more likely they really did see the real world in terms of black and white morality (something that, incidentally, George Lucas has been criticized for by colleagues) and that carries over into their fiction.
Bullshit, sometimes there were nice vermin
[editline]19th December 2011[/editline]
I fucking loved theses books when I was like 8-10 :v:
WELP, came in expecting somethign completely satirical, left feeling slightly traumatized and needing a cookie and a hug.
[QUOTE=Stormcharger;33793747]Bullshit, sometimes there were nice vermin[/QUOTE]
You say this, despite the books' author flatly contradicting you in the OP.
I can think of two "nice" vermin in the entire series. One was an idiotic thug who was nice to some little kids at the end, so they let him live. The other was a ferret who was raised from babyhood in the Abbey by the kind and loving mice, and he still turns out evil and ends up killing one of them. He ends up killing another bad guy at the end of the book, before he dies himself, and that's supposed to be some kind of redemption for him I guess, but he's never portrayed as anything other than an untrustworthy, paranoid psychopath.
Oh yeah, and there's a vegetarian cat in the first book, but that was on some weird shit, cause there were implied humans and dogs in that book too. He kind of retconned that stuff out in the sequels.
I think that was one of the things that started to put me off the books when I was a kid...I thought weasels and ferrets and shit were cool, I WANTED some of them to be good. Or vice versa. Last one I read was "Taggerung" which had like an evil otter? But then he was just like "nah, I'm not evil, cause I'm an otter!" And switched sides. And I was like welp
hah, a couple of friends of mine are big Redwall fans from their youths
I will send them links to this
[editline]19th December 2011[/editline]
Man :v: elite rabbit shock troops
I'm almost done re-reading the first book. You have a really good point, actually. If I may elaborate, one section in particular proves the point about from-birth morality, and how even the good guys are kind of fucked in the head.
So, there's this fox called Sela, called in to help cure the bad guy, Cluny. She basically sells information, so she tries to find out what Cluny's planning, and goes to see if Redwall Abbey'll pay for some much needed information. Honestly, it seemed like a decent if morally-grey way to make a living. I mean, foxes need to eat, too.
Constance the badger lies to her about telling the abbot, meets her herself, and kicks the living shit out of her after stealing the information. Again, you have to remember that Constance is one of the good guys in the story.
Poor Sela goes back empty-handed, bruised, and with one of her guards dead. She's later killed herself, and unceremoniously tossed with her son into a ditch to become food for maggots.
Now, both foxes are pretty interesting to me. I've played the part of information broker in a couple of video games myself, and at least it's not as evil as killing people to make a living. However, Jacques does a very good job of making sure the reader feels absolutely no fucking sympathy for either of the foxes. Like the OP said, goodies are goodies and baddies are baddies, no grey.
Chickenhound, just to show you guys what I mean, feels no sadness over his mother's death. He in fact calls her a fool, renames himself, and goes to rob the shit out of Redwall Abbey because, you know, after the death of a parent that's completely normal.
[editline]19th December 2011[/editline]
Also, yeah, what's with the feasts?
[QUOTE=Penultimate;33793862]I'm almost done re-reading the first book. You have a really good point, actually. If I may elaborate, one section in particular proves the point about from-birth morality, and how even the good guys are kind of fucked in the head.
So, there's this fox called Sela, called in to help cure the bad guy, Cluny. She basically sells information, so she tries to find out what Cluny's planning, and goes to see if Redwall Abbey'll pay for some much needed information. Honestly, it seemed like a decent if morally-grey way to make a living. I mean, foxes need to eat, too.
Constance the badger lies to her about telling the abbot, meets her herself, and kicks the living shit out of her after stealing the information. Again, you have to remember that Constance is one of the good guys in the story.
Poor Sela goes back empty-handed, bruised, and with one of her guards dead. She's later killed herself, and unceremoniously tossed with her son into a ditch to become food for maggots.[/QUOTE]
Holy shit, I forgot about that. That is so D:
Wait, there are people who don't hate gypsies?
[QUOTE=Stormcharger;33793888]Wait, there are people who don't hate gypsies?[/QUOTE]
I never got the gypsy hate. I don't hate gypsies, and I think they're kind of cool. Or do you mean in the books?
[QUOTE=TH89;33793737]Laziness is probably the best possible reason to do it, but it's still a pretty bad one. I mean, Tolkien put mind-bogglingly immense amounts of work into world-building for The Lord of the Rings, so clearly taking the trouble wasn't something he had a problem with. Even Jacques could probably invent some villains with some depth in half the time it takes him to write a feast sequence.
I think it's more likely they really did see the real world in terms of black and white morality (something that, incidentally, George Lucas has been criticized for by colleagues) and that carries over into their fiction.[/QUOTE]
I think another reason he made good and evil simplistic was that it was aimed at a younger audience.
Brian probably thought kids would be too confused to understand complicated factions or explanations for motivations, He just went " Fuck it, all the kids want to read about is the animals beating on each other, let's just make vermin evil,[i]Why?[/i] [b]Because they're vermin[/b] everyone knows vermin are evil".
[QUOTE=Penultimate;33793895]I never got the gypsy hate. I don't hate gypsies, and I think they're kind of cool. Or do you mean in the books?[/QUOTE]
The gypsies in england are generally thieving dicks
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