Brainwash - The Gender Equality Paradox - General

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ2xrnyH2wQ[/media] I'm not sure if this has been posted but I figured I would share it.

didn't finish watching the whole thing, but what I saw was pretty intriguing interesting fact: [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Iran"]70% of Iran's science and engineering graduates are women[/URL]

[QUOTE=Turnips5;39685597]didn't finish watching the whole thing, but what I saw was pretty intriguing interesting fact: [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Iran"]70% of Iran's STEM graduates are women[/URL][/QUOTE] As explained in the documentary it highlighted and gave a reason for why poor (or otherwise less equal) societies can have higher male/female ratio in otherwise gender specific jobs, just in case you missed that bit. Funnily enough the psychologist from Cambridge came up, someone I mentioned here a few years back but sadly it was seen as dumb and brushed off as rubbish, but what he said and explained in the clip I found very informative. Sadly the previous two people from Norway said science/biology doesn't count and struggled to explain the points raised when questioned and simple remarked that the scientists/psychologists -- in short -- "have an agenda to push gender roles". Lost a bit of respect and credibility to them as they appeared to just shrug off the information because it conflicted with their belief.

The only thing in the video that surprised me was the stubbornness of the Norwegian researchers. Everything else I figured was kind of obvious... though, interesting.

[QUOTE=mac338;39686541]The only thing in the video that surprised me was the stubbornness of the Norwegian researchers. Everything else I figured was kind of obvious... though, interesting.[/QUOTE] I think the reality is the Norwegian researchers themselves are trying to push an agenda, not the actual scientists and psychologists.

Though this tells a story on how to better reach both a female and male demographic with video games: proper character development, choice and such. Perfect example is Mass Effect which has a massive female player-base.

Excellent video for the hot gender equality topic here on FP. [editline]23rd February 2013[/editline] I'd also recommend seeing this. I think these two fields conflict with each other in a way, but in this field people generally agree that there are biological differences. [video=youtube;9P0PnEEIehc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P0PnEEIehc[/video] From a moral perspective I agree with the Norwegian researchers that finding the gay gene/biological gender differences is pointless. Even if there is a difference we should still have a 100% gender equality. But we can still have 100% gender equality regardless of what biological truths there are.

How would you make a construction sign gender neutral?

[QUOTE=Octocow;39690173]How would you make a construction sign gender neutral?[/QUOTE] no idea he wasn't being serious about it IIRC

[QUOTE=Octocow;39690173]How would you make a construction sign gender neutral?[/QUOTE] Dick girl.

From what I got in regards to what that scientist in the video at around the 13 minute mark said, effectively there is no gender beyond physical differences?

I'm at 13 minutes and I'm already raging. Why is it so important to prove that men and women are identical? What's the point? We're not. Generally men will be stronger, it's just biology. That itself will create social differences. Just because there isn't any discrimination it doesn't mean every profession will have 50-50 gender split. Men and women are interested in different things. Get over it. We're different psychologically too. Give little kids toys for both girls and boys. After few months they will start to distinguish between those toys and will usually choose those corresponding with their gender. There are differences between male and female brain, every fucking brain tomography is going to show you this, example: Hypothalamus. Hell the difference starts showing in first weeks after conception. And we think in different ways about things. When introduced to a labyrinth, boys would draw a map in their heads when going through it, girls would remember details about corners, but in the end difference between girls and boys in time spent in the labyrinth before reaching the exit was similar, with boys being better very slightly. I mean, is it really that hard to accept that there are physical differences in our body and there will also be physical differences in our brains? And that will mean that the brain is gonna function a bit differently? In the end we're born a bit different and our environment can either strengthen or weaken it, but the difference is there. And it's okay. It doesn't mean that one is better than the other. Just different. Personally I find it amazing and great. Also the part about the construction sign. What a steaming load. How is it supposed to look to be gender neutral according to that guy? A dickgirl? You want 2 signs one showing a guy and another one a girl in a dress? Oops that would be sexist because it would imply that girls are supposed to wear dresses right? The stickman represents a human. It's gender neutral enough.

When it comes to hypothesizing that girls and boys only differ by social perceptions, this experiment must be kept in mind: [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer[/URL] While the physical sex of boys and girls is independent from their actual gender (transsexualism demonstrating the point) the actual difference between the two clearly exists. The spectrum between the two can be pretty wide, with it being possible to be 50/50 of either gender, the scale still exists.

Lol at the ending. The norwegians going "They're finding what they want to find, why is so important to them to find the biological difference." How ironic. They are the ones blatantly ignoring the evidence and then going "not gonna believe it until I see evidence". How is the test with different toys biased? Everyone can do it and get the same results no matter what side you're on.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39690990]Also the part about the construction sign. What a steaming load. How is it supposed to look to be gender neutral according to that guy? A dickgirl? You want 2 signs one showing a guy and another one a girl in a dress? Oops that would be sexist because it would imply that girls are supposed to wear dresses right? The stickman represents a human. It's gender neutral enough.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure he's joking about it. He's a Norwegian comedian. That's why in the intro they show clips of people who don't want to get interviewed because they think it's going to be used for comedy purposes on TV.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39690990]I'm at 13 minutes and I'm already raging. Why is it so important to prove that men and women are identical? What's the point? We're not. Generally men will be stronger, it's just biology. That itself will create social differences. Just because there isn't any discrimination it doesn't mean every profession will have 50-50 gender split. Men and women are interested in different things. Get over it. We're different psychologically too. Give little kids toys for both girls and boys. After few months they will start to distinguish between those toys and will usually choose those corresponding with their gender. There are differences between male and female brain, every fucking brain tomography is going to show you this, example: Hypothalamus. Hell the difference starts showing in first weeks after conception. And we think in different ways about things. When introduced to a labyrinth, boys would draw a map in their heads when going through it, girls would remember details about corners, but in the end difference between girls and boys in time spent in the labyrinth before reaching the exit was similar, with boys being better very slightly. I mean, is it really that hard to accept that there are physical differences in our body and there will also be physical differences in our brains? And that will mean that the brain is gonna function a bit differently? In the end we're born a bit different and our environment can either strengthen or weaken it, but the difference is there. And it's okay. It doesn't mean that one is better than the other. Just different. Personally I find it amazing and great. Also the part about the construction sign. What a steaming load. How is it supposed to look to be gender neutral according to that guy? A dickgirl? You want 2 signs one showing a guy and another one a girl in a dress? Oops that would be sexist because it would imply that girls are supposed to wear dresses right? The stickman represents a human. It's gender neutral enough.[/QUOTE] Because the differences have for centuries been used to justify discrimination and abuse when there is no difference beyond outward physical differences. I doubt gender even exists outside of what society forces on people, honestly swap all the advertising for kids toys and stuff and you could probably swap the gender roles.

Men and women should posses equal opportunity, but they should not be assumed as the same creature. There is nothing discriminatory about helping girls be girls, and helping boys be boys, regardless of which physical sex either one has. Implementing the notion of both genders being indistinguishable is highly unnatural and unhealthy, it destroys the importance of masculinity, and it destroys the importance of femininity, specifically when it comes to simply doing things that both sides are good at. I would like to repeat myself by stating that I am not talking about the physical sex, I am talking about the actual gender. It is also important to keep in mind that even the current efforts of equality can be considered hypocritical. If women are encouraged to admire and embrace their masculine side, men should be encouraged to express their feminine side. Men should not be shunned for expressing emotion, there is a very good reason why mental institutions are filled with an immensely larger percentage of males. "Manning the fuck up" should not mean "suppressing everything inside of you until you go insane" it should instead mean "letting it out if necessary, and then metaphorically kicking some ass in a much better state" One of the many reasons why so many man lead lives of quiet desperation, is because they need to occasionally make it loud and clear.

[QUOTE=CapsAdmin;39691345]I'm pretty sure he's joking about it. He's a Norwegian comedian. That's why in the intro they show clips of people who don't want to get interviewed because they think it's going to be used for comedy purposes on TV.[/QUOTE] In the beginning he seemed like he wanted to prove that men and women are identical and that the horrible backward society is holding back the genders from having 50-50 split in everything. Made me feel like he was serious about it. Especially this line "it sounds old fashioned to me that male and female stuff still exist." [editline]23rd February 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=CapsAdmin;39687143]From a moral perspective I agree with the Norwegian researchers that finding the gay gene/biological gender differences is pointless.[/QUOTE] Science figures shit out. It doesn't have to have practical purpose. [QUOTE=CapsAdmin;39687143]Even if there is a difference we should still have a 100% gender equality. But we can still have 100% gender equality regardless of what biological truths there are.[/QUOTE] Depends what you mean by equality. Everyone should be free to do what he wants and there shouldn't be any discrimination but I oppose every notion of trying to make males and females identical. Again let them do what they want. [editline]23rd February 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=carcarcargo;39691386]Because the differences have for centuries been used to justify discrimination and abuse when there is no difference beyond outward physical differences. I doubt gender even exists outside of what society forces on people, honestly swap all the advertising for kids toys and stuff and you could probably swap the gender roles.[/QUOTE] Did you miss the part where 9 month old kids choose different toys? Or that there is a difference in even 1 day old babies? I mean the sole fact that transsexuals exist proves that there is gender identity. (it's not the same as sex or gender role)

Gender exists in humanity for respectable and important reasons, it is quite simply a bad idea to go against it, and erase one of the many parts that make us who we are. I fully agree that discrimination needs to go. That bullshit needs to continue getting progressively eradicated, and should be replaced by understanding and encouragement. The only people that should be discriminated, are the ones who refuse to look outside of their perceptions of "normality", and go after harming other people who do not fit inside those perceptions. If you have trouble accepting the diversity of humanity, please atleast do not get in the way while causing harm.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39691403]Depends what you mean by equality. Everyone should be free to do what he wants and there shouldn't be any discrimination but I oppose every notion of trying to make males and females identical. Again let them do what they want.[/QUOTE] What you said pretty much. I was trying to point out how I feel some people think gender rights (i guess rights is a better word) is going to be harmed if there is a difference.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39691403] Did you miss the part where 9 month old kids choose different toys? Or that there is a difference in even 1 day old babies? I mean the sole fact that transsexuals exist proves that there is gender identity. (it's not the same as sex or gender role)[/QUOTE] How could types of toys be biologically programmed into kids? It's more likely subtle societal stuff getting into their heads, through their parents or others.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;39691711]How could types of toys be biologically programmed into kids? It's more likely subtle societal stuff getting into their heads, through their parents or others.[/QUOTE] It's not "toys biologically programmed" it's "interests/activities biologically programmed". Kids want to do different things and different toys will help them do that. Toys are means not ends. Watch the part about newborns [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ2xrnyH2wQ&feature=player_embedded#t=1345s[/url] and tell me it's the parents who influenced the newborns...

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39691783]It's not "toys biologically programmed" it's "interests/activities biologically programmed". Kids want to do different things and different toys will help them do that. Toys are means not ends. Watch the part about newborns [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ2xrnyH2wQ&feature=player_embedded#t=1345s[/url] and tell me it's the parents who influenced the newborns...[/QUOTE] the only interest and activity inherent to being a boy is doing stuff that is considered boyish. that's what gender identity is. boys are not necessarily drawn to certain activities more than girls biologically, they are drawn to things that a socially considered masculine.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39691783]It's not "toys biologically programmed" it's "interests/activities biologically programmed". Kids want to do different things and different toys will help them do that. Toys are means not ends. Watch the part about newborns [URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ2xrnyH2wQ&feature=player_embedded#t=1345s[/URL] and tell me it's the parents who influenced the newborns...[/QUOTE] But that test makes no sense, how would the kid know what a mechanical object was? That test could easily be down to coincidence rather than gender. The idea of genders none existence is a lot more likely, considering scientists have found no difference between the male and female brain. I'd have to see a lot more testing to prove it otherwise.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;39691828]But that test makes no sense, how would the kid know what a mechanical object was? That test could easily be down to coincidence rather than gender. The idea of genders none existence is a lot more likely, considering scientists have found no difference between the male and female brain. I'd have to see a lot more testing to prove it otherwise.[/QUOTE] this experiment shows that baby boys evolved to be mechanics!

[QUOTE=yawmwen;39691824]the only interest and activity inherent to being a boy is doing stuff that is considered boyish. that's what gender identity is. boys are not necessarily drawn to certain activities more than girls biologically, they are drawn to things that a socially considered masculine.[/QUOTE] But those children don't even know what boyish and girlish is. Even if you threat them as hermaphrodites, statistically they will choose toys corresponding with their genders after 9 months. And gender identity is self awareness of being a male or female. You're talking about gender role. [QUOTE=carcarcargo;39691828]But that test makes no sense, how would the kid know what a mechanical object was? That test could easily be down to coincidence rather than gender.[/QUOTE] The test shows what interests the baby more. Some kind of a system or human face. That's the point, it doesn't even know what it is but the baby is more interested in that than the human face. And how can something be a coincidence if you repeat a test thousand times and get conclusive results?

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39691903] The test shows what interests the baby more. Some kind of a system or human face. That's the point, it doesn't even know what it is but the baby is more interested in that than the human face. And how can something be a coincidence if you repeat a test thousand times and get conclusive results?[/QUOTE] Because all he's doing is holding things in front of kids and some how coming to the conclusion that the kid looking at it somehow dictates and innate interest in it, which it probably doesn't, it could practically just be a coin toss scenario that happened to go one way rather than the other. Plus how does he explain the boys that didn't look at the mechanism and instead looked at the face? Are they secretly female?

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39691903]But those children don't even know what boyish and girlish is. Even if you threat them as hermaphrodites, statistically they will choose toys corresponding with their genders after 9 months. And gender identity is self awareness of being a male or female. You're talking about gender role.[/quote] um 9 months is more than enough time for a child to learn masculine and feminine social ideas. hell, we have discovered that newborn babies(like right out of the womb) know language. [quote]The test shows what interests the baby more. Some kind of a system or human face. That's the point, it doesn't even know what it is but the baby is more interested in that than the human face. And how can something be a coincidence if you repeat a test thousand times and get conclusive results?[/QUOTE] no it doesn't show what interests the baby more. do you know that newborn babies are pretty much blind, silly sil? they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a machine and a face right when they are born.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;39691941]Because all he's doing is holding things in front of kids and some how coming to the conclusion that the kid looking at it somehow dictates and innate interest in it, which it probably doesn't, it could practically just be a coin toss scenario that happened to go one way rather than the other. Plus how does he explain the boys that didn't look at the mechanism and instead looked at the face? Are they secretly female?[/QUOTE] First of all it's not some dumb binary system. They measure time the kids looked at each picture. Second, they compare statistics. Not all boys will look at longer at the mechanism, it doesn't say or matter. There are things that interfere with the test, the time of day, how long ago the kid took a poop and million other things, that's why you repeat the test many many times, to rule out the chance, see statistical significance. And in this test there's a statistical difference between boys and girls at 1st day of their life, before the social roles are even introduced. Third, if this indeed was a coin toss then the result wouldn't show any difference.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39692028]First of all it's not some dumb binary system. They measure time the kids looked at each picture. Second, they compare statistics. Not all boys will look at longer at the mechanism, it doesn't say or matter. There are things that interfere with the test, the time of day, how long ago the kid took a poop and million other things, that's why you repeat the test many many times, to rule out the chance, see statistical significance. And in this test there's a statistical difference between boys and girls at 1st day of their life, before the social roles are even introduced. Third, if this indeed was a coin toss then the result wouldn't show any difference.[/QUOTE] it can't show a difference because babies cannot differentiate between objects until 6 months. "5. Object and face recognition An infant is born with the ability to see facial features at arm's length, but is attracted instead to high-contrast borders of objects. For example, a baby will gaze at the edge of a face or the hairline when looking at a human face. By two to three months of age, a baby will begin to notice facial features, such as the nose and mouth. By three to five months, most babies can differentiate between mother's face and a stranger's face." [editline]23rd February 2013[/editline] [url]http://vision.about.com/od/childrensvision/tp/vision_develop.htm[/url]