Initiative to ban new fossil fuel cars from 2025 in Netherlands passes lower house - Polidicks

[QUOTE]Earlier this year, we reported on the Dutch Labour Party’s initiative to instate a ban on new gas and diesel car sales in the Netherlands by 2025. Since then other countries started discussing similar possibilities to phase out gas-powered cars on a comparable timeline. ... The initiative has since passed in the lower house of the Netherlands’ parliament and it is now seen by some as “likely to become law”. ... Vos is aware that electric vehicle technology needs to improve in order for the ban to be realistically feasible, but he sees that happening within the next decade. [/QUOTE] [URL="https://electrek.co/2016/08/14/netherlands-ban-gas-powered-cars-likely-law-all-new-cars-electric-2025/"]Source[/URL] A bit late but didn't see it posted. We need to move fast with things like this all over the world (and with other industries) if there's to be any hope of slowing climate change.

There shouldn't be any talk of banning a crucial technology until the replacement technology is mature enough, which it's not.

I certainly don't think the UK could support an initiative like that anytime in the next twenty years. Replacement battery production won't be high enough with the lithium shortage and, more importantly, our decaying power grid won't be able to substitute the energy generated by all the millions of combustion engines being phased out across the country.

[QUOTE=download;50918788]There shouldn't be any talk of banning a crucial technology until the replacement technology is mature enough, which it's not.[/QUOTE] I believe the idea is to incentivize faster developing replacement technology, I.E force a demand.

[QUOTE=download;50918788]There shouldn't be any talk of banning a crucial technology until the replacement technology is mature enough, which it's not.[/QUOTE] Perhaps the intention is to light a fire under the industry's ass. We went to the moon in ten years, so while this proposal may seem incredibly optimistic, who knows what'll happen. They'll either succeed, or they won't.

[QUOTE=Morgen;50918765][URL="https://electrek.co/2016/08/14/netherlands-ban-gas-powered-cars-likely-law-all-new-cars-electric-2025/"]Source[/URL] A bit late but didn't see it posted. We need to move fast with things like this all over the world (and with other industries) if there's to be any hope of slowing climate change.[/QUOTE] Not really, this is a stupid infinitive. Current requirements for new cars help reduce emissions. Factories, energy and other manufacturing processes are the ones that need to be cleaned up.

[QUOTE=Im Crimson;50918811]I believe the idea is to incentivize faster developing replacement technology, I.E force a demand.[/QUOTE] Car companies know full well that if they can't produce a non-competitive electric car then the government will fold to the masses who don't want car prices going up overnight.

[QUOTE=download;50918788]There shouldn't be any talk of banning a crucial technology until the replacement technology is mature enough, which it's not.[/QUOTE] Initiatives like this force the bigger car manufacturers to get serious. We have the Model 3 coming out next year which brings decent EVs to the middle class. EV technology has been moving fairly quickly this decade and it will only improve at an even faster rate with things like this. We can't sit idly by when it comes to climate change issues and say "well we'll change if it gets good enough on it's own". Maybe do a review before it goes into force and decide if the technology has reached some predetermined goals that make it really viable as a full replacement or not at the time. [QUOTE=Jon27;50918796]I certainly don't think the UK could support an initiative like that anytime in the next twenty years. Replacement battery production won't be high enough with the lithium shortage and, more importantly, our decaying power grid won't be able to substitute the energy generated by all the millions of combustion engines being phased out across the country.[/QUOTE] Lithium is a non-issue. It's not even a big part of a Li-ion cell despite the name. Most cars would be charged at night, when demand is significantly lower, so it's not that big of a deal. We might need to improve the infrastructure a bit but it's not all that significant. [QUOTE=download;50918835]Car companies know full well that if they can't produce a non-competitive electric car then the government will fold to the masses who don't want car prices going up overnight.[/QUOTE] Enough car companies are getting on board at this point that the few that don't want to produce something viable can be shut out without that big of an impact.

[QUOTE=Teddybeer;50918880]Helps that the place is small and public transport is greatish. And without even reading the article I bet it's just for new cars from that point on. And we just love pushing deadlines. Oh and some cities already ban diesel cars.[/QUOTE] Banned diesels? Are they aware that diesel engines are far more energy efficient than petrol?

[QUOTE=download;50918886]Banned diesels? Are they aware that diesel engines are far more energy efficient than petrol?[/QUOTE] They also pollute 4 times more than petrol, wich is probably the main reason of why they're banning them.

[QUOTE=download;50918886]Banned diesels? Are they aware that diesel engines are far more energy efficient than petrol?[/QUOTE] Ever heard of NOx which is one of the main contributors to air[URL="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jul/15/nearly-9500-people-die-each-year-in-london-because-of-air-pollution-study"] pollution which kills almost 10,000 people a year in London[/URL] alone?

[QUOTE=alexelgeco;50918923]They also pollute 4 times more than petrol, wich is probably the main reason of why they're banning them.[/QUOTE] Define [I]pollute[/I], because a diesel certainly doesn't put out more CO2 than a petrol. [editline]20th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Morgen;50918944]Ever heard of NOx which is one of the main contributors to air[URL="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jul/15/nearly-9500-people-die-each-year-in-london-because-of-air-pollution-study"] pollution which kills almost 10,000 people a year in London[/URL] alone?[/QUOTE] I have. Greater efficiency means higher temperatures which means more NOx. Pick one; delaying global warming or increased lung disease.

[QUOTE=download;50918950]Define [I]pollute[/I], because a diesel certainly doesn't put out more CO2 than a petrol. [editline]20th August 2016[/editline] I have. Greater efficiency means higher temperatures which means more NOx. Pick one; delaying global warming or increased lung disease.[/QUOTE] I think i'll take the unlisted EV option, heck I'd take the hydrogen option if I had to. It can definitely be viable by the mid 2020s for most vehicle types. If you really wanted to use ICE cars still then a gasoline plug in hybrid is clearly the best solution, no need for diesel.

Yeeeeah no, until charging cars can be done as quickly as putting fuel in it trying to force this on people is a bit silly.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;50918985]Yeeeeah no, until charging cars can be done as quickly as putting fuel in it trying to force this on people is a bit silly.[/QUOTE] It's not really an issue if you have ever used an EV for 99.5% of people. As long as you can do 200 miles in it. If the government pushes through legislation to let people renting install chargers at home then it wouldn't be an issue for most. In the UK if you have to park on the street you can request the council to install a street side charger for you, but it's not very commonly used yet.

[QUOTE=download;50918950]I have. Greater efficiency means higher temperatures which means more NOx. Pick one; delaying global warming or increased lung disease.[/QUOTE] Or pick the third option where we develop something that doesn't actively pollute during usage and delays global warming at the same time? This isn't a yes/no problem, this is a complex multiple solution problem that we believe we have a strong contender for a solution for.

[QUOTE=download;50918950]Define [I]pollute[/I], because a diesel certainly doesn't put out more CO2 than a petrol.[/QUOTE] They produce nitrogen oxides (NO2) and particulate matter that can cause respiratory issues plus heart and lung disease.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;50918985]Yeeeeah no, until charging cars can be done as quickly as putting fuel in it trying to force this on people is a bit silly.[/QUOTE] Just charge it overnight. What's the big problem here? The range on most of these vehicles can cover a majority of the UK from full to empty. You might have to stop for 30 minutes to charge if you went top-to-bottom, but you really should be stopping on journeys that long anyway to prevent fatigue. So what's the problem?

Since some of you are instantly assuming that this would mean they would ban ICE cars, it is not. [B][I][U]If[/U][/I][/B] this would pass then only electric cars would be sold and gas cars would be banned, it would still be legal to drive gas cars. The current electrical power grid of the Netherlands could support the amount of extra chargers but at this moment this is all dreams and thoughts.

I have a feeling this will make RE85 a lot more popular

Pretty interesting idea. This time-span would be absolutely impossible in the United States with our size, but it's pretty adequate for the Netherlands. You've got great public transport options if you want to go further to something like Eastern Europe, or you can suck it up and plan charging times.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;50919040]Just charge it overnight. What's the big problem here?[/QUOTE] What if you can't do that because you live in an apartment building without a nice garage? A lot of people here park their cars on designated spaces in front of the buildings or on the street, it's not like I could run an extension cord from my apartment to the car. Though it'd be great if the cars had some kinda universal replaceable battery standard and you could just swap those for charged ones on gas (or electricity, I guess) stations.

new technology should be phased in, not forced in

The more EV vehicles the more charging stations country wide, charging won't be a issue tbh

[QUOTE=Thunderbolt;50919137]What if you can't do that because you live in an apartment building without a nice garage? A lot of people here park their cars on designated spaces in front of the buildings or on the street, it's not like I could run an extension cord from my apartment to the car. Though it'd be great if the cars had some kinda universal replaceable battery standard and you could just swap those for charged ones on gas (or electricity, I guess) stations.[/QUOTE] Put a charger on the wall or on the street?

[QUOTE=Thunderbolt;50919137]What if you can't do that because you live in an apartment building without a nice garage? A lot of people here park their cars on designated spaces in front of the buildings or on the street, it's not like I could run an extension cord from my apartment to the car. Though it'd be great if the cars had some kinda universal replaceable battery standard and you could just swap those for charged ones on gas (or electricity, I guess) stations.[/QUOTE] This is something that will change as the technology is adopted. Of course right now there aren't many public charging spots. But as ownership increases there will be no option but to install these things. For now you could trail a charger out to the car if you really have no option. Of if you live in an apartment with no way to do that from your place, inquire with the landlord about having your charging equipment somewhere you can reasonably get it to the car. Eventually we'll see more street-side charging stations. But for home charging right now, this is basically the only option.

[QUOTE=Untouch;50919148]new technology should be phased in, not forced in[/QUOTE] Lmfao. That is wrong on so many levels. Remember back when every phone charger had a different custom plug? ... and then EU forced all phones (except apple it seems..) to use the USB standard plug? ... and remember how you all have the same socket in houses rather then a different plug for every appliance and district? and remember when they enforced the ban of leaded fuel engines so that all new cars had to be made to use unleaded fuel? and remember when they forced factories to try scrub out some of the nasty gasses the emitted? and remember when they forced cars to use catalytic converters to help the enviornment? and remember when they forced all cars use seatbelts? and remember when they mandated that all products have to give out less then a specific limit of EMC noise so that we could move forwards with communications technology. Yeah, [b]shit never happens until there is someone to force the big companies hands.[/b]

US is also mandating that all cars have emergency auto-stopping systems standard by some future date. Something that will save lives, and help self driving technology.

[QUOTE=Thunderbolt;50919137]What if you can't do that because you live in an apartment building without a nice garage? A lot of people here park their cars on designated spaces in front of the buildings or on the street, it's not like I could run an extension cord from my apartment to the car. Though it'd be great if the cars had some kinda universal replaceable battery standard and you could just swap those for charged ones on gas (or electricity, I guess) stations.[/QUOTE] We have power basically at every parking spot(for block heater) if you live in a apartment, usually costs like 10€/mo or something like that. [t]http://www.vastavalo.fi/albums/userpics/13723/normal_20101106_04a.jpg[/t] I read about some guy that got a tesla and asked if he can use the outlet to charge it and they didn't even want to charge him extra money because it's so little amount of extra power

[QUOTE=Hillo;50919341]We have power basically at every parking spot(for block heater) if you live in a apartment, usually costs like 10€/mo or something like that. [t]http://www.vastavalo.fi/albums/userpics/13723/normal_20101106_04a.jpg[/t] I read about some guy that got a tesla and asked if he can use the outlet to charge it and they didn't even want to charge him extra money because it's so little amount of extra power[/QUOTE] We don't get that luxury since it's maybe below freezing for a month here. :v: