Switzerland votes to maintain conscription - Polidicks

[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/22/swiss-conscription-idUSL5N0HI0MR20130922[/url] [quote]Switzerland voted overwhelmingly to keep military conscription on Sunday, the third time citizens of the Alpine nation had rejected an attempt to reconstitute an institution regarded by many Swiss as a national 'glue'. The neutral country, which has not fought an international war in 200 years, voted 73 percent in favour of maintaining the draft, seen as helping to bind together generations of Swiss who do not share a single language or culture. All 23 Swiss cantons voted to keep conscription.[/quote]

[quote]The neutral country, which has not fought an international war in 200 years[/quote] Absolutely amazing

Switzerland is what happens when you plop a medieval government into an isolated mountain nation. It works flawlessly.

Their neutrality is also maintained by the fact that they have no useful land or ore rich areas at all

Kind of cool how the Swiss have direct democracy.

lets not lose our heads up our own asses for a second and think that conscription is actually a good thing

[QUOTE=Explosions;42293503]Switzerland is what happens when you plop a medieval government into an isolated mountain nation. It works flawlessly.[/QUOTE] I'd like to know what you mean by medieval. We have a (fairly) direct democracy since 1891, something a lot of countries still don't have. [editline]24th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=NoDachi;42293644]lets not lose our heads up our own asses for a second and think that conscription is actually a good thing[/QUOTE] I voted to keep the conscription. For such a small country, I don't think they'd get enough recruits to have it still working. Plus, the swiss army does a lot of good things, helping during catastrophes and supporting big events.

[QUOTE=rosthouse;42293682]I'd like to know what you mean by medieval. We have a (fairly) direct democracy since 1891, something a lot of countries still don't have.[/QUOTE] All I meant is that the entire concept of direct democracy is a fairly ancient concept. The term medieval isn't meant to be disparaging.

[QUOTE=rosthouse;42293682]I voted to keep the conscription. For such a small country, I don't think they'd get enough recruits to have it still working. Plus, the swiss army does a lot of good things, helping during catastrophes and supporting big events.[/QUOTE] Why should one be forced to join the military?

[QUOTE=Explosions;42293719]All I meant is that the entire concept of direct democracy is a fairly ancient concept. The term medieval isn't meant to be disparaging.[/QUOTE] In that context, I'm happy to have a medieval gouverment :v:

that means I get to keep my rifle. Thanks swissies!

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42293732]Why should one be forced to join the military?[/QUOTE] First, you have to understand that the swiss army will never, ever engage in a fight, unless to defend themselves or the country. So it's not that you are forced to fight. Second, you don't have to go in the military if you have ethical problems with operating a gun. In that case, you get to do something called civil serivces (Zivildienst), where you do stuff like working in hospitals, retirement homes or similar things. There's a third service, civil protection (Zivilschutz) where you do support in case of catastrophes and such (I'm in that service). Third, and this is my own opinion. Our gouverment does a lot for giving everyone a good education. We have great public schools, and everyone that really wants to can usually go to an university. I think of the army, and the other mentioned services, as supporting that system.

Conscription anywhere is retarded. We still got it, fun fun fun.

Pure army conscription doesn't make much sense but if the system works like rosthouse said (you can skip military training if you want) and do other sorts of community service I think it's great.

[QUOTE=rosthouse;42293772]First, you have to understand that the swiss army will never, ever engage in a fight, unless to defend themselves or the country. So it's not that you are forced to fight. Second, you don't have to go in the military if you have ethical problems with operating a gun. In that case, you get to do something called civil serivces (Zivildienst), where you do stuff like working in hospitals, retirement homes or similar things. There's a third service, civil protection (Zivilschutz) where you do support in case of catastrophes and such (I'm in that service). Third, and this is my own opinion. Our gouverment does a lot for giving everyone a good education. We have great public schools, and everyone that really wants to can usually go to an university. I think of the army, and the other mentioned services, as supporting that system.[/QUOTE] I don't see why anyone would be against any of that, it actually sounds really good.

I like to decide what I do for myself

[QUOTE=rosthouse;42293772]First, you have to understand that the swiss army will never, ever engage in a fight, unless to defend themselves or the country. So it's not that you are forced to fight.[/quote] Except I still don't want to be forced to do something I don't wish to do by the government. Why not make it voluntary?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42293946]Except I still don't want to be forced to do something I don't wish to do by the government. Why not make it voluntary?[/QUOTE] Because sometimes the collective whole is just as or more important than the individual. Maybe just sometimes.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42293929]I like to decide what I do for myself[/QUOTE] But you must agree that it's good that the people are instilled with a good work ethic, community values and charity at a young age as well as providing valuble skills and a workforce.

[QUOTE=The mouse;42293903]I don't see why anyone would be against any of that, it actually sounds really good.[/QUOTE] The initiative came from a group called GSOA, sloppy translated to Community for Switzerland without an Army. Go figure :v: Also, for the army, you take a basic training for 18-21 weeks between the ages 19-22ish. After that you have to go each year for around two weeks, called repetition courses. It's time you don't have to study or work, which is what pisses most people of. I don't think it's that bad, you get out of your usual habit and do something completly different. It's a bit different for the other services. For Civil Protection, you have two weeks training, but you stay in service until you're around 40. You have to serve a least two days a year, maximum a week (Not too sure about that anymore, but that's what I recall). Civil Service, you serve 1.5 times as long as military service.

[QUOTE=The mouse;42293976]But you must agree that it's good that the people are instilled with a good work ethic, community values and charity at a young age.[/QUOTE] So why need they be forced?

[QUOTE=The mouse;42293976]But you must agree that it's good that the people are instilled with a good work ethic, community values and charity at a young age as well as providing valuble skills and a workforce.[/QUOTE] no its not institutions are not good at building character~ or what ever bullshit you believe

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42293732]Why should one be forced to join the military?[/QUOTE] Except you're not forced to join just the military. There is the option of working other public service jobs as well, such as a paramedic or firefighter.

Conscription has a few pros. For one, it helps unify a country's citizens. It gives the every day people a sense of what they're protecting. Many volunteers, at least in the US, come from a long line of volunteers. A decent sized chunk of the American military has been from a collection of certain families throughout our history. The US has been in two wars and not once, from beginning to end, did it ever feel like it at home. A conscription would fix that, to a point. I think it was Machiavelli who argued that conscription should be an essential part of a republic so that the people will never want war and at the same time feel part of the service to the republic they're in. On the other hand, if you have a government ruled by corporations and certain political elites, like the US presently, then conscription is simply a statement that the state owns your life.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42293997]So why need they be forced?[/QUOTE] It means that it retains it's cohesiveness as force as it'd fall apart pretty quickly as I'm sure that given the choice most people wouldn't want to do it, and I'm sure that they're ultimately better off as a result of doing it.

[QUOTE=MrBacon;42293776]Conscription anywhere is retarded. We still got it, fun fun fun.[/QUOTE] Nothing wrong with it IMO. Discipline and keeping in shape for some months.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42294014]Conscription has a few pros. For one, it helps unify a country's citizens. It gives the every day people a sense of what they're protecting. Many volunteers, at least in the US, come from a long line of volunteers. A decent sized chunk of the American military has been from a collection of certain families throughout our history. The US has been in two wars and not once, from beginning to end, did it ever feel like it at home. A conscription would fix that, to a point. I think it was Machiavelli who argued that conscription should be an essential part of a republic so that the people will never want war and at the same time feel part of the service to the republic they're in. On the other hand, if you have a government ruled by corporations and certain political elites, like the US presently, then conscription is simply a statement that the state owns your life.[/QUOTE] It doesn't help that these families are the only ones who actually give enough of a fuck to not just voice their displeasure but actually do something. There's a reason most people in the military end up becoming politically active afterward. They not only have a personal stake but they spent several years under oath protecting it. They also know how the bureaucracy works for the most part. There is also the fact that a nation wide forced conscription would punch the monetized lines we currently have in the face and force the wealthy to mingle with the poor. On a side note, I think one of the few reasons we're doing so badly against Global Warming is exactly the same reason that a few in the thread are championing, individualization is great until it actually starts hampering our ability to collective solve problems. The United States is a perfect case and point with our politics getting more and more polarized as the people are voting people in. Fun fact, money plays a role but at the end of the day its the US public that votes people in so blame them. They just don't care.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42293946]Except I still don't want to be forced to do something I don't wish to do by the government. Why not make it voluntary?[/QUOTE] I think that people often have that thinking People vs. Gouverment. What's special in Switzerland is that we don't hate our gouverment :v: A gouverment is something that everyone should take some responsibility in and these services are part of that. That's why I think it's something good. Also, we still have our bitchfights between politicians, so there's that :v:

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42293946]Except I still don't want to be forced to do something I don't wish to do by the government. Why not make it voluntary?[/QUOTE] The fact of the matter being that since Switzerland is a direct democracy, they really do get to decide if they want conscription or not. It's called a society and if you don't like it, you don't have to live in it.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294006]no its not institutions are not good at building character~ or what ever bullshit you believe[/QUOTE] That's just a matter of opinion.