Is there such thing as "Separation of Church and State" in the United States?
69 replies, posted
My government teacher talked about this a week ago and I researched it a little.
In the founding of our country, we were a Christian founded country, hence all of the God references in our social constructs (money, pledge of allegiance, etc). The idea of Separation of Church and State came from a letter written in the 1700s saying that there SHOULD be a Separation of Church and State, nothing however confirmed it as being a legitimate claim.
However, in 1796, the Treaty of Tripoli was signed as a treaty between the United States and Tripoli. The majority of this treaty is irrelevant to this topic, but Article 11 specifically relates to it.
[quote=Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli]Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.[/quote]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli#Article_11[/url]
People claim that this text is not in the Barlow translation of this treaty that Tripoli signed, but this passage was read aloud in congress and unanimously agreed upon.
I leave this up to you guys, is there such a thing as Separation of Church and State in the United States?
[QUOTE=FHamster;26320170]First Amendment Establishment Clause.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't explicitly say that religion has no grounds in government for determining laws, it does however prove a lot of what I was asking though. Thanks
The United states of America is obviously am Islamic theocracy, where have you been?
Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11
[QUOTE=advil0;26320119] pledge of allegiance[/QUOTE]
It should be pointed out that the "Under god" in the pledge of allegiance wasn't added until 1954.
Because you know, "herp derp godless commies" and such.
[QUOTE=advil0;26320119]My government teacher talked about this a week ago and I researched it a little.
In the founding of our country, we were a Christian founded country, hence all of the God references in our social constructs (money, pledge of allegiance, etc). The idea of Separation of Church and State came from a letter written in the 1700s saying that there SHOULD be a Separation of Church and State, nothing however confirmed it as being a legitimate claim.
However, in 1796, the Treaty of Tripoli was signed as a treaty between the United States and Tripoli. The majority of this treaty is irrelevant to this topic, but Article 11 specifically relates to it.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli#Article_11[/url]
People claim that this text is not in the Barlow translation of this treaty that Tripoli signed, but this passage was read aloud in congress and unanimously agreed upon.
I leave this up to you guys, is there such a thing as Separation of Church and State in the United States?[/QUOTE]
The word god added to the pledge had nothing to do with being a founded and built on a Christan foundation. They added during the Red scare, it was suppose to make the US better then the communists because at the time communism and atheism were related.
[QUOTE=Herb;26320666]It should be pointed out that the "Under god" in the pledge of allegiance wasn't added until 1954.
Because you know, "herp derp godless commies" and such.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I found that out too, I just forgot to edit my post about that
We aren't a Christian-founded country. Most of the founding fathers were merely deists, not Christians.
yes, yes there is.
It is true, religion is influencing American politics more these days. It needs to be stopped. Religion and State as one is a dangerous thing.
Remember that stupid bitch in some High level political debate swearing that church and state was one?
[editline]27th November 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=DarkendSky;26321341]It is true, religion is influencing American politics more these days. It needs to be stopped. Religion and State as one is a dangerous thing.[/QUOTE]
This. Only ever causes shitstorms since people rather exploit the damn thing instead of using the positive aspects.
The "under god" in the pledge of allegiance came in 1954. It used to be "one nation, indivisible."
If it were not for the separation of church and state thing America would be like Iraq is today
All you need to do is ask yourself this:
The men who wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, writings that are among the most enlightened and influential of all time, these guys couldn't or didn't put in at least ONE line saying "This is a Christian nation" somewhere in all that?
What, in creating a specifically Christian nation they somehow forgot to mention that? That makes sense to anyone?
Not to me. To me it tells me one thing loud and clear- they specifically did NOT want to create a nation based on any single religious belief.
Fuck 'em, Hail Satan
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;26321856]All you need to do is ask yourself this:
The men who wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, writings that are among the most enlightened and influential of all time, these guys couldn't or didn't put in at least ONE line saying "This is a Christian nation" somewhere in all that?
What, in creating a specifically Christian nation they somehow forgot to mention that? That makes sense to anyone?
Not to me. To me it tells me one thing loud and clear- they specifically did NOT want to create a nation based on any single religious belief.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, in fact a lot of the founding fathers were barely involved in religion.
Someone doesn't know their amendments.
There shouldn't be a "under god" in the anthem, because there is no "under god" in the original anthem.
[QUOTE=advil0;26320119]In the founding of our country, we were a Christian founded country, hence all of the God references in our social constructs (money, pledge of allegiance, etc).[/QUOTE]
[b]Wrong.[/b] The Founding Father's were deists back then which is the equivalent of being today's [b]Atheist[/b] if they were alive today. The Pledge of Allegiance actually used to be, and I quote it...
[b][i]"I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all. " (1892)[/b][/i]
The " Under God " and the rest was only recently added maybe about 50-100 years ago, and it's actually against the law for someone to force you to say the Pledge of Allegiance.
And here's a picture of a 1862 $1 Bill! ( First Legal Tender One )
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/US_%241_1862_Legal_Tender.jpg[/img]
In the United States, in the 1st Amendment as well...
[quote]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[/quote]
To quote a bit more here too this is important for you to know, Jefferson also helped us establish the Separation of Church and State.
[quote=wikipedia]The First Amendment reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ....", while Article VI specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." The modern concept of a wholly secular government is sometimes credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke, but the phrase "separation of church and state" in this context is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury, Connecticut, Baptist Association, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper. Echoing the language of the founder of the Baptist church in America, Roger Williams (who had written in 1644 of "[A] hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world"), Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
Jefferson's metaphor of a wall of separation has been cited repeatedly by the U.S. Supreme Court. In its 1879 Reynolds v. United States decision, the court allowed that Jefferson's comments "may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] Amendment." In the 1947 Everson v. Board of Education decision, Justice Hugo Black wrote, "In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state." [1] However, the Court has not always interpreted the constitutional principle as meaning absolute separation of government from all things religious.[2][3][4][5][6]
Public debates about the proper extent of church/state separation in the U.S. remain vigorous and impassioned. Politically active evangelical Christians such as David Barton, a former co-chair of the Texas Republican party, emphasize the religiosity of the nation's founders and assert that "separation of church and state," as widely understood by modern historians and jurists, is a myth and that the U.S. was founded as a religious, Christian nation.[/quote]
But, as I have said before, our founding fathers were [b]NOT[/b] Christians.
[url]http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html[/url]
Here's more if you want to read a bit more on it, and I mean the letters that these guys sent and the fact that what our history shows us should make it quite blatant that they weren't Christians.
This whole line about the founding fathers not being almost uniformly Christian is almost laughable.
- All but two of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were declared Christians.
- All but one of the signers of the Articles of Confederation were declared Christians.
- All but one of the signers of the Constitution were declared Christians.
Also, being deist was just different than a deist of today. Jefferson for example attended church services in the House of Representative every week while being president. He also gave money in support of many churches throughout his life.
He also agreed with much of the morality of Jesus and thought that it was a very important part of a working republic.
Some quotes by Jefferson: “Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
A quote by Benjamin Franklin, one of the highest held "deists" of the time: “ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]
He also insisted that public schools teach that Christianity should be held higher than any other religion.
Another point, After the Bible the second best selling book in the new American nation was The New England Primer... you know how it taught people to read and write? Through Biblical stories and Christian doctrine of course!
[QUOTE=sgman91;26324693]This whole line about the founding fathers not being almost uniformly Christian is almost laughable.
- All but two of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were declared Christians.
- All but one of the signers of the Articles of Confederation were declared Christians.
- All but one of the signers of the Constitution were declared Christians.
Also, being deist was just different than a deist of today. Jefferson for example attended church services in the House of Representative every week while being president. He also gave money in support of many churches throughout his life.
He also agreed with much of the morality of Jesus and thought that it was a very important part of a working republic.
Some quotes by Jefferson: “Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
A quote by Benjamin Franklin, one of the highest held "deists" of the time: “ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]
He also insisted that public schools teach that Christianity should be held higher than any other religion.
Another point, After the Bible the second best selling book in the new American nation was The New England Primer... you know how it taught people to read and write? Through Biblical stories and Christian doctrine of course![/QUOTE]
Except they said in the treaty of tripoli that the USA wasn't based off Christianity so your point is mute.
Also, a lot of politicians go to church for the PR, they don't necessarily believe in it.
You understand how ridiculous that sounds, right? It would be like me saying, "Except the Declaration of Independence says that our inalienable rights come from God so your point is mute."
The only way to find the truth on historical issues is by looking at the big picture, not one line from one treaty.
[QUOTE=sgman91;26324879]You understand how ridiculous that sounds, right? It would be like me saying, "Except the Declaration of Independence says that our inalienable rights come from God so your point is mute."
The only way to find the truth on historical issues is by looking at the big picture, not one line from one treaty.[/QUOTE]
This is relevant to the topic at hand considering we're discussing the founding fathers and the matter of separation of church and state but, are you a republican?
(( I'll get to the point once you've answered ))
