Valve has a new "Agreement Binding Arbitration Clause" and it's not good at all.
179 replies, posted
[url]http://kotaku.com/5930705/now-valve-is-trying-to-stop-people-suing-them-too[/url]
[url]http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/[/url]
[quote][b]Valve have announced changes to Steam's subscriber agreement that seek to prohibit users from filing lawsuits against the company.
Saying that they "considered this change very carefully", a Valve statement explains that "It's clear to us that in some situations, class actions have real benefits to customers. In far too many cases however, class actions don't provide any real benefit to users and instead impose unnecessary expense and delay, and are often designed to benefit the class action lawyers who craft and litigate these claims."
"Class actions like these do not benefit us or our communities. We think this new dispute resolution process is faster and better for you and Valve while avoiding unnecessary costs, and that it will therefore benefit the community as a whole."[/b]
On the one hand, they have a point! Many class action lawsuits are a waste of everyone's time and a pain in the ass. But what happens if something terrible happens to Steam one day, and there are actually grounds to instigate such a case? As the statement reads, in some situations, class action lawsuits do benefit customers. By removing that option, they're essentially depriving you, as a consumer, of a valid means of protecting your rights and gaining compensation should Valve one day mess something up.
[b]In addition to the attempted block on class-action suits - remember, some American states are questioning the legality of these kind of clauses - Valve is also trying to put a stop to users launching individual lawsuits against the company, instead introducing "a new required process whereby we agree to use arbitration or small claims court to resolve the dispute."
This sucks. Why? You normally can't appeal the findings of a private arbitration hearing, nor is there an independent or public means of reviewing an arbitrator's decisions. Such hearings are also designed to be conducted privately, out of the public eye.
The move ensures that even if Valve screws something up, or something terrible happens to Steam and/or your games collection, any compensation or dispute will be handled on their terms, not those of a court and jury.[/b]
Should you actually need to resolve a dispute via such a hearing, "Valve will reimburse your costs of the arbitration for claims under a certain amount". Also, "Reimbursement by Valve is provided regardless of the arbitrator's decision, provided that the arbitrator does not determine the claim to be frivolous or the costs unreasonable."
You can read the new agreement in its entirety here. Importantly, it appears that, much like Microsoft's changes, there is no "opt-out" clause.
The new agreement is part of a Steam update that has already gone live.[/quote]
Is this the beginning of the end?
[B]EDIT[/b]
Just an update here's [url="http://i.imgur.com/bXcxw.jpg"]understandable version[/url] of the agreement
Also here's a statement when you decline to agree with the condition
[img]http://i.imgur.com/YM7Hq.png[/img]
If you live in Europe you can get a refund a lost game on your account, without any warning for 7 days
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Zx8eR.png[/img]
They listen to the community. If we object surely they will change their mind.
I'm too dumb to understand what this means, can someone simplify it?
[QUOTE=warneccruid;37027638] Is this the beginning of the end?[/QUOTE]
Oh no PC gaming is dead!!!!!!!!1
So basically they wrote some stupid paper saying you're not allowed to sue us no matter what we do?
[quote= Valve's stance on their terms of Reimbursement ] "Reimbursement by Valve is provided regardless of the arbitrator's decision, provided that the arbitrator does not determine the claim to be frivolous or the costs unreasonable."[/quote]
[B]e:[/B] And as the article failed to mention,
[quote= LordCrypto below me: (Go rate him agree)] This Section does not prevent you from bringing your dispute to the attention of any federal, state, or local government agencies that can, if the law allows, seek relief from us for you[/quote]
[B]TL;DR
[/B]
So with this agreement update if they screw up they still fix the problem and nobody can serve them a crap class-action "damages" suit.
It also prevents large individual lawsuits looking for obscene amounts of money for negligible reasons, while agreeing to respond to problems in a suitable way.
If you disagree with the reimbursement Valve gives you, they will pay for your arbitration or a small claims court visit to solve the dispute.
Sounds good to me.
Valve's official notice: [URL]http://store.steampowered.com/news/8523/[/URL]
[quote= Valve]
We’re also introducing a new dispute resolution process that will benefit you and Valve. Recently, a number of companies have created similar provisions which have generated lots of discussion from customers and communities, and we’ve been following these discussions closely. On Steam, whenever a customer is unhappy with any transaction, our first goal is to resolve things as quickly as possible through the normal customer support process. However in those instances in which we can't resolve a dispute, we've outlined a new required process whereby we agree to use arbitration or small claims court to resolve the dispute. In the arbitration process, Valve will reimburse your costs of the arbitration for claims under a certain amount. Reimbursement by Valve is provided regardless of the arbitrator’s decision, provided that the arbitrator does not determine the claim to be frivolous or the costs unreasonable. [/quote]
cue everyone saying that valve couldn't possibly ever do anything bad
they probably won't now, but you never know what might happen in the future
Doesn't almost every other multiplayer/Online Distribution provider already do this?
I'm not saying I agree with them, but class action lawsuits are really dumb. The lawyers are the real ones who benefit, not the clients.
[QUOTE=Liem;37027684]Doesn't almost every other multiplayer/Online Distribution provider already do this?[/QUOTE]
Yep. After the whole PSN catastrophe, every game ecosystem dev has this in their agreements.
[QUOTE]This Section does not prevent you from bringing your dispute to the attention of any federal, state, or local government agencies that can, if the law allows, seek relief from us for you.
[/QUOTE]
If this was EA people would flipping out.
This doesn't seem at all bad to me.
[quote=OP]The move ensures that even if Valve screws something up, or something terrible happens to Steam and/or your games collection, any compensation or dispute will be handled on their terms, not those of a court and jury.
[/quote]
I trust that Valve would handle such problems in a beneficial way, and it eliminates any possibly really stupid lawsuits against them, right? So, Yeah I'd say this is a pretty good thing.
[QUOTE=Chernarus;37027725]If this was EA people would flipping out.[/QUOTE]
That's because EA's stupid and if these problems were settled solely by them no one would end up happy and they'd have all your money. Is the common belief.
I've agreed to the new terms.
I feel like a new man.
Isn't there legal precedent stating that EULAs can't remove your right to sue a company?
How does this hold up to European laws?
[QUOTE=Chernarus;37027725]If this was EA people would flipping out.[/QUOTE]Actually, people are reading it and noticing that whoever wrote the quoted article is a twat and intentionally misinterpreting what they are saying.
This to me seems like one of two ways it turns out of something happens
You are a giant faggot on steam who scams people and shit and your account suspeneded they can go fuck off
or
something happens to their servers and shit goes down and accounts are affected they can give a refund on a case by case basis and not be sued by kids going I PAID FOR GAEMS I CANT GET THEM IT WILL TAKE MONTHS WTF VALVE?
[QUOTE=Zerfenus;37027766]How does this hold up to European laws?[/QUOTE]It doesn't, they even say this in the EU Clause, which they are including now. EU customers can still do it. EU Customers agree to a new, separate clause from the rest of us because of the different EU laws.
[editline]31st July 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=warneccruid;37027638][url]http://kotaku.com/5930705/now-valve-is-trying-to-stop-people-suing-them-too[/url]
[url]http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/[/url]
Is this the beginning of the end?[/QUOTE]No because your article is shit and willfully misleading.
[QUOTE=Super Muffin;37027678][B]TL;DR
[/B]
So with this agreement update if they screw up they still fix the problem and nobody can serve them a crap class-action "damages" suit.
It also prevents large individual lawsuits looking for obscene amounts of money for negligible reasons, while agreeing to respond to problems in a suitable way.
Sounds good to me.
[B]e:[/B] And as the article failed to mention,[/QUOTE]
Most other services do this already
OP, please explain how this is not so good, or the beginning of the end?
[QUOTE=Chernarus;37027725]If this was EA people would flipping out.[/QUOTE]
Ea already does this
as well as any other firm for any other service
[QUOTE=Super Muffin;37027678][B]e:[/B] And as the article failed to mention,
[B]TL;DR
[/B]
So with this agreement update if they screw up they still fix the problem and nobody can serve them a crap class-action "damages" suit.
It also prevents large individual lawsuits looking for obscene amounts of money for negligible reasons, while agreeing to respond to problems in a suitable way.
If you disagree with the reimbursement Valve gives you, they will pay for your arbitration or a small claims court visit to solve the dispute.
Sounds good to me.
Valve's official notice: [URL]http://store.steampowered.com/news/8523/[/URL][/QUOTE]
Kotaku made a sensational article? [B][I]NO FUCKING WAY![/I][/B]
[QUOTE=Delta616;37027839]OP, please explain how this is not so good, or the beginning of the end?[/QUOTE]This post does a good lot to explain what actually is going on, and not what Kotaku bullshitted with.
[QUOTE=Super Muffin;37027678][B]e:[/B] And as the article failed to mention,
[B]TL;DR
[/B]
So with this agreement update if they screw up they still fix the problem and nobody can serve them a crap class-action "damages" suit.
It also prevents large individual lawsuits looking for obscene amounts of money for negligible reasons, while agreeing to respond to problems in a suitable way.
If you disagree with the reimbursement Valve gives you, they will pay for your arbitration or a small claims court visit to solve the dispute.
Sounds good to me.
Valve's official notice: [URL]http://store.steampowered.com/news/8523/[/URL][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37027889]This post does a good lot to explain what actually is going on, and not what Kotaku bullshitted with.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I read the post. I just don't see how this is "not good at all." and the "beginning of the end."
It just means disputes aren't settled in court.
[QUOTE=Delta616;37027907]Yes, I read the post. I just don't see how this is "not good at all." and the "beginning of the end."[/QUOTE]
Nobody does if they read the notes from valve and not a Gawker article.
Meanwhile
SECTION 12 CONTAINS A BINDING ARBITRATION AGREEMENT AND CLASS ACTION WAIVER. IT AFFECTS YOUR LEGAL RIGHTS. PLEASE READ IT. IF YOU LIVE OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES, SOME OR ALL OF SECTION 12 MIGHT NOT APPLY TO YOU.
Some countries (and the EU) do not like clauses like this.
Oh my god! This is it! Gabe has switched the table on us! Its no--
Oh wait, it isn't.
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