Damn bro. Don't obey the law of the land you're in?
Well that's a jailin'.
Why do muslims in the UK seem to be so much more radical than in the US? Every muslim person I know (and I know a lot; my highschool had more South Asian kids than black kids) is like, super white washed. Some of them drink and smoke and have tattoos and have sex before marriage, girls don't wear hijabs, all the while they maintain about the same level of belief in their religion as regular middle class white people. I live in a higher income area, so maybe the need to rely on religion isn't as important when you've got enough money etc., but why do I see shit like this coming only from europe?
[QUOTE=proboardslol;47678099]Why do muslims in the UK seem to be so much more radical than in the US? Every muslim person I know (and I know a lot; my highschool had more South Asian kids than black kids) is like, super white washed. Some of them drink and smoke and have tattoos and have sex before marriage, girls don't wear hijabs, all the while they maintain about the same level of belief in their religion as regular middle class white people. I live in a higher income area, so maybe the need to rely on religion isn't as important when you've got enough money etc., but why do I see shit like this coming only from europe?[/QUOTE]
Most of them are first or second generation immigrants, so beliefs tend to be still quite strong. Even then, I know from personal experience that second or third generation immigrants tend to quickly shed off a lot of their old customs (I've seen girls wearing jeans at the same time as hijabs oddly enough).
[QUOTE=proboardslol;47678099]Why do muslims in the UK seem to be so much more radical than in the US? Every muslim person I know (and I know a lot; my highschool had more South Asian kids than black kids) is like, super white washed. Some of them drink and smoke and have tattoos and have sex before marriage, girls don't wear hijabs, all the while they maintain about the same level of belief in their religion as regular middle class white people. I live in a higher income area, so maybe the need to rely on religion isn't as important when you've got enough money etc., but why do I see shit like this coming only from europe?[/QUOTE]
I don't mean to be derogatory to Americans, Brits, nor Muslims, but I would dare to guess that it's because if they tried this kind of shenanigans in the states, they would get beaten up/shot/deported?
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47678136]I don't mean to be derogatory to Americans, Brits, nor Muslims, but I would dare to guess that it's because if they tried this kind of shenanigans in the states, they would get beaten up/shot/deported?[/QUOTE]
Of course! This is known as strategic deterrence.
Anjem Choudary really needs to drop dead.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47678136]I don't mean to be derogatory to Americans, Brits, nor Muslims, but I would dare to guess that it's because if they tried this kind of shenanigans in the states, they would get beaten up/shot/deported?[/QUOTE]
Yowza. Is this actually what people think America is like?
The reason why religious zeal is higher in European Muslims compared to North American Muslims is that European Muslims are largely only first generational immigrants. Immigration from the Middle East throughout Europe really only bloomed within the last fifteen years, so this is a pretty predictable clash of cultures. Integration doesn't happen quickly, especially when the cultures that are integrating are this different. But it will happen! It just takes some time.
I hope this doesn't seem offensive but in this case how i feel......if you don't like it here? Go elsewhere? they always feel they're hard done to by the government by the majority of people in this country yet ( and i'm sure this is only select groups ) but they seem to think it's they're way or the high way.
Having friends who have gone to places like Saudi Arabia and had to the follow the rules and beliefs in that country.....why do they feel when coming over here that they do not have to follow our rules and ways?
[QUOTE=Darknote;47677991]Damn bro. Don't obey the law of the land you're in?
Well that's a jailin'.[/QUOTE]
If they want Sharia Law they can go to a country that has it as it's law, aka Islamic State, not here.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47678136]I don't mean to be derogatory to Americans, Brits, nor Muslims, but I would dare to guess that it's because if they tried this kind of shenanigans in the states, they would get beaten up/shot/deported?[/QUOTE]
Do you know anything at all about the situation in either Britain or America with regards to immigrants? Please stop flaunting your ignorance, it's embarrassing.
The sad part about all this is they could just fuck off back home if they don't want to follow the rules and try to have everything their way. But for some reason saying this makes you a ~~racist~~
[QUOTE=Source;47678338]I hope this doesn't seem offensive but in this case how i feel......if you don't like it here? Go elsewhere? they always feel they're hard done to by the government by the majority of people in this country yet ( and i'm sure this is only select groups ) but they seem to think it's they're way or the high way.
Having friends who have gone to places like Saudi Arabia and had to the follow the rules and beliefs in that country.....why do they feel when coming over here that they do not have to follow our rules and ways?[/QUOTE]
It's easy for you to say "If you don't like it here then don't live there" when your country isn't a warzone/you're seeking a better life for you and your family. People have many reasons to move and sometimes move despite disagreeing with the culture/people/etc. It's the same as telling the Russian separatists in the Ukraine to "just move to Russia".
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;47678534]It's easy for you to say "If you don't like it here then don't live there" when your country isn't a warzone/you're seeking a better life for you and your family. People have many reasons to move and sometimes move despite disagreeing with the culture/people/etc. It's the same as telling the Russian separatists in the Ukraine to "just move to Russia".[/QUOTE]
Well maybe they should fucking appreciate the chance for a better life that they are given.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;47678272]Yowza. Is this actually what people think America is like?
The reason why religious zeal is higher in European Muslims compared to North American Muslims is that European Muslims are largely only first generational immigrants. Immigration from the Middle East throughout Europe really only bloomed within the last fifteen years, so this is a pretty predictable clash of cultures. Integration doesn't happen quickly, especially when the cultures that are integrating are this different. But it will happen! It just takes some time.[/QUOTE]
It requires small numbers of immigrants and time. If there are so many they form a bubble of sub culture they don't need or want to integrate. Chinatowns in large US cities agent really fusions of east and west, they are mostly east.
That being said is fine to acknowledge your roots and where you came from. European Americans do this too. Muslims in Europe get a bad rep because they not only don't seem to integrate they seem to want the whole continent to become their culture. But wet can probably blame the media and a vocal minority for it.
So really the US doesn't have this vocal minority the media can cling to
[QUOTE=Deng;47678129]Most of them are first or second generation immigrants, so beliefs tend to be still quite strong. Even then, I know from personal experience that second or third generation immigrants tend to quickly shed off a lot of their old customs (I've seen girls wearing jeans at the same time as hijabs oddly enough).[/QUOTE]
Loads of people just wear headscarfs and I know a fair few who don't even wear it unless going to a mosque. Give it a couple of generations and people become a lot more relaxed about things. It also depends on where they immigrated from - Pakistani muslims can be fairly different in mindset to, say, Bangladeshi muslims as a large part of it is the combination of religion and culture, not just one of the two.
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;47678572]It requires small numbers of immigrants and time. If there are so many they form a bubble of sub culture they don't need or want to integrate. Chinatowns in large US cities agent really fusions of east and west, they are mostly east.
That being said is fine to acknowledge your roots and where you came from. European Americans do this too. Muslims in Europe get a bad rep because they not only don't seem to integrate they seem to want the whole continent to become their culture. But wet can probably blame the media and a vocal minority for it.
So really the US doesn't have this vocal minority the media can cling to[/QUOTE]
[img]http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/anti-immigration-cartoon-of-shows-everett.jpg[/img]
[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yYDHYZ9qHqObcLt7cdD4iOoL-GoHGx4W0ajvbmAKo8FqxTPsQ4BemW1U_4MlI5aRPjVOeycAX2t0iohIk6A4PweP03oeR8DWQOfQTAitslVLpS2LvPk[/img]
[img]http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/ellis-island/anti-immigrant-cartoon.jpg[/img]
[img]http://flashbak.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/the-immigrant-jew.jpg[/img]
[img]http://discrimination1920.weebly.com/uploads/1/2/1/4/12149534/7670944_orig.jpg[/img]
America is no stranger to mass influxes of immigrants. We have leveled exactly the same accusations against all number of foreign immigrants that the UK is currently hurling at Muslim immigrants. Integration is a two way street, both cultures grow to adapt and accept one another over a period of years. While "Chinatowns" may exist, they exist alongside and often in concert with the surrounding areas. They prove to be areas of economic activity and tourism that benefit the city as a whole. Even so, only a fractional percentage of Asian-Americans live in these small hubs. The vast majority have fully integrated into the much more dominant Western culture, and the vast majority of "natural" Americans have enjoyed the cultural and economic boons of having them. Today, the average Chinese-American is indistinguishable from Joe Schmoe next door.
The Italians have cultural hubs within the country, too, despite early and mid-1900s fears that all they brought was crime, poverty, and lost-opportunities. Most major cities have a street or small area of town that is considered the place to go for Italian cuisine today. Same with the French in cities like New Orleans and Saint Louis. Mexican-Americans, too. In lesser examples, when is the last time America has made any kind of fuss about Irish, Polish, German, or Jewish immigrants?
Immigration benefits everybody, but it's a long term benefit. In the short term, there is bound to be culture clash. Personal prejudice and a threatened sense of cultural identity from both sides will lead to vocal people from both sides making a big stink about it, but over a course of 10-20 years only the most dedicated bigots still hold tight to that negativity. For the rest of the country, cultural exposure wears down the edges until people inevitably realize how silly they were being about the whole thing.
If we're still on Facepunch in 15 years, I'll say, "I told ya so."
I'm not disagreeing with you. But faster integration would happen if there were less concentrated immigrants.
And yes I know Americans used to fear Irish immigration because they thought the pope would take over etc etc. As I can said it's the media giving the vocal right wing immigrants a voice that causes natives to freak out.
But thanks for the increasingly racist images.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47678136]I don't mean to be derogatory to Americans, Brits, nor Muslims, but I would dare to guess that it's because if they tried this kind of shenanigans in the states, they would get beaten up/shot/deported?[/QUOTE]
Lol this is what some people really believe.
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;47679109]I'm not disagreeing with you. But faster integration would happen if there were less concentrated immigrants.
And yes I know Americans used to fear Irish immigration because they thought the pope would take over etc etc. As I can said it's the media giving the vocal right wing immigrants a voice that causes natives to freak out.
But thanks for the increasingly racist images.[/QUOTE]
Of course they're racist images. Xenophobia, ethnocentrism, and good old fashioned racism have always been some of the major driving forces behind a fear of immigration. While anything so blatantly offensive as those cartoons/advertisements are would be laughed off today for being wildly inappropriate (except in the [I]Let's Draw Mohammed[/I] Circles), the mentality behind them remains the same. They were posted only to demonstrate a point: the same arguments and fears that the anti immigration movements are making today are hardly new concepts.
Coincidentally the Telegraph published [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11590565/Muslims-ordered-not-to-vote-to-by-extremists.html]this[/url] today
[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CEYlkm4WgAAafMJ.jpg[/img]
Doesn't really help matters tbh
[QUOTE=butt2089;47679652]Coincidentally the Telegraph published [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11590565/Muslims-ordered-not-to-vote-to-by-extremists.html]this[/url] today
[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CEYlkm4WgAAafMJ.jpg[/img]
Doesn't really help matters tbh[/QUOTE]
Well hey at least they aren't breaking the rules by putting them in prohibited places, right?
[QUOTE=butt2089;47679652]Coincidentally the Telegraph published [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11590565/Muslims-ordered-not-to-vote-to-by-extremists.html]this[/url] today
Doesn't really help matters tbh[/QUOTE]did you actually read the article and see the discussion from other muslims?
[QUOTE=butt2089;47679652]Coincidentally the Telegraph published [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11590565/Muslims-ordered-not-to-vote-to-by-extremists.html]this[/url] today
[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CEYlkm4WgAAafMJ.jpg[/img]
Doesn't really help matters tbh[/QUOTE]
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that the people distributing these pamphlets are an incredibly tiny minority
Otherwise might as well kick all white people out of the US because the WBC exists
looking into "None have the right to legislate except Allah." [EMQ 12:40] is actually very revealing about that minority extremist group/choudary. it seems to be specifally from the English Maariful Quran and no other tafsir (critical analysis/explanation) seems to contain reference to this ayah and it's not actually even in the quran. obviously it's in their best interest to distort the truth if they want to radicalise youth.
choudary really loves to quote from that specific tafsir.
[QUOTE=benzi2k7;47679762]looking into "None have the right to legislate except Allah." [EMQ 12:40] is actually very revealing about that minority extremist group/choudary. it seems to be specifally from the English Maariful Quran and no other tafsir (critical analysis/explanation) seems to contain reference to this ayah and it's not actually even in the quran. obviously it's in their best interest to distort the truth if they want to radicalise youth.
choudary really loves to quote from that specific tafsir.[/QUOTE]
It's just like the fact that the bible verse about homosexuality being immoral is the same one where they say wearing more than one type of fabric in clothes is immoral. People are willing to instead of evolving religious belief and tradition to a modern context instead will just pick what suits their own bigotry and ignorance best. If you ask someone Christian why you should celebrate Jesus they will give you reasons and argue why he was a good man, if you ask someone who Christian who believes being gay is immoral why they will either spout ignorant lies or just beg the authority of the Bible. To be religious doesn't mean your holy men and texts are infallible it's ridiculous and somewhat blasphemous to say they are if they are not godly themselves.
I've spoken about this with a Christian friend of mine who personally believes that those who discriminate based on Bible verses are not correct in following God's word.
[QUOTE=Purple Gecko;47680373]It's just like the fact that the bible verse about homosexuality being immoral is the same one where they say wearing more than one type of fabric in clothes is immoral. People are willing to instead of evolving religious belief and tradition to a modern context instead will just pick what suits their own bigotry and ignorance best. If you ask someone Christian why you should celebrate Jesus they will give you reasons and argue why he was a good man, if you ask someone who Christian who believes being gay is immoral why they will either spout ignorant lies or just beg the authority of the Bible. To be religious doesn't mean your holy men and texts are infallible it's ridiculous and somewhat blasphemous to say they are if they are not godly themselves.
I've spoken about this with a Christian friend of mine who personally believes that those who discriminate based on Bible verses are not correct in following God's word.[/QUOTE]
What people loose in bigotry by using more "modern" interpretation, they gain in having just that much more cognitive dissonance. How many so-called divine truths can someone arbitrary reinterpret to match thier personal taste before thier religion has no ressemblence to it's original self? How many before one can no longer ignore they've reduced an absolute statement on the nature of life, death, and the universe and a strict moral code into a fashionable artifact?
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;47679527]Of course they're racist images. Xenophobia, ethnocentrism, and good old fashioned racism have always been some of the major driving forces behind a fear of immigration. While anything so blatantly offensive as those cartoons/advertisements are would be laughed off today for being wildly inappropriate (except in the [I]Let's Draw Mohammed[/I] Circles), the mentality behind them remains the same. They were posted only to demonstrate a point: the same arguments and fears that the anti immigration movements are making today are hardly new concepts.[/QUOTE]
The first two weren't and lined up with my points and weren't offensive
[QUOTE=proboardslol;47678099]Why do muslims in the UK seem to be so much more radical than in the US? Every muslim person I know (and I know a lot; my highschool had more South Asian kids than black kids) is like, super white washed. Some of them drink and smoke and have tattoos and have sex before marriage, girls don't wear hijabs, all the while they maintain about the same level of belief in their religion as regular middle class white people. I live in a higher income area, so maybe the need to rely on religion isn't as important when you've got enough money etc., but why do I see shit like this coming only from europe?[/QUOTE]
US muslims have been here for several generations as well as being more dispersed in the US, also i think many US muslims come from the more stable places in the middle east like saudi arabia and they generally have a less rigid stance on islam, but plenty of weird shit still happens here too and its probably gotten worse since 9-11 made muslims enemies of the state overnight, people reacted the same way they did to the japanese in ww2, only this war has no end, the middle east cannot be beaten through military
being first generation doesn't inherently make you radical
nearly my entire local community is made up of first-generation asian immigrants and nearly all of them hold the belief that because they were allowed into the country, it is their responsibility to adapt to the local customs, even if they don't like it. They all believe that as it was their choice to come to the country, they have no right to complain.
it's not like they completely ditch their own beliefs either, it's just that they don't make it very public and don't expect other people to cater to them.
generally
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