Grenade thrown at police at Ukrainian Parliament. 10(?) wounded.3 - Polidicks

[QUOTE] The blast, outside the city's parliament buildings, knocked officers off their feet and witnesses reported seeing pools of blood on the ground near some of the wounded. The weapon was used ammid demonstrations against a draft law to give special status to separatist regions. [/QUOTE] [url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3216944/Two-police-wounded-grenade-outside-Ukraine-parliament-Reuters-witness.html[/url] Russian sources are saying 30 wounded, daily mail started at 2 wounded and keeps increasing the number, currently ten.

Not shocked. If you have been looking at the LiveUA maps for the past few months, theirs been several attempts to mobilize cells around Kiev and Odessa. It's not who'd you expect it to be either. More often then not it's been disgruntled civilians that are going fuck everything and attacking whatever they see as prolonging the current conflict. People are sick of the war, and the vote has been judged by quiet a few to be nothing short of a sham and it's really, really pissing off a lot of civilians, maiden, right sektor, the rebels, just about everyone not in the government's clique.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;48580941]Not shocked. If you have been looking at the LiveUA maps for the past few months, theirs been several attempts to mobilize cells around Kiev and Odessa. It's not who'd you expect it to be either. More often then not it's been disgruntled civilians that are going fuck everything and attacking whatever they see as prolonging the current conflict. People are sick of the war, and the vote has been judged by quiet a few to be nothing short of a sham and it's really, really pissing off a lot of civilians, maiden, right sektor, the rebels, just about everyone not in the government's clique.[/QUOTE] So they are pissed that poroshenko makes steps towards decentralization as rebels want? If they are sick of the war they should approve it.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48580954]So they are pissed that poroshenko makes steps towards decentralization as rebels want? If they are sick of the war they should approve it.[/QUOTE] A lot of polititians are opposed of Poroshenko's idea too, as they won't be able to steal dosh and cover it on war with Russia/rebels/KGB/nuclear strikes/Putin and his agents anymore.

I work with a bunch of ukranian lifeguards. At the end of the summer, the europeans go home. Almost all of the ukranians are trying to get b2 visas after their j1 visas so they can stay for like another 6 months. In that time they're going to apply for f1 visas to stay during school. I even know some guys who live near the warzone that are applying for refugee status. NONE of the ukranians want to go home.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;48581197]I work with a bunch of ukranian lifeguards. At the end of the summer, the europeans go home. Almost all of the ukranians are trying to get b2 visas after their j1 visas so they can stay for like another 6 months. In that time they're going to apply for f1 visas to stay during school. I even know some guys who live near the warzone that are applying for refugee status. NONE of the ukranians want to go home.[/QUOTE] Would you be wanting to go home if suddenly civil war started at your state and will have been ongoing for more than a year? You can't really blame them. In the end, neutral civilians are the ones who are suffering in wars the most.

1 police officer dead, no detail into whether it was the gernade. 100+ wounded [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34105925[/url]

I still dont get what the protesters need this time

Maybe it's the same far right guys that have a kill list for prominent federalization supporters.

Pretty sure that was a blatant and planned provocation. I mean, how many people do you know who have grenades near at hand? Not to mention those who have won't take a grenade to peaceful demonstration "just in case".

[QUOTE=antianan;48581621]Pretty sure that was a blatant and planned provocation. I mean, how many people do you know who have grenades near at hand? Not to mention those who have won't take a grenade to peaceful demonstration "just in case".[/QUOTE] Grenades aren't very hard to get in Ukraine because of the war. In the east, you can get stuff like rifles and ammo fairly easily [editline]31st August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48581327]I still dont get what the protesters need this time[/QUOTE] They claim the recognition of Donbass as a special republic will create a frozen conflict

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;48581644]Grenades aren't very hard to get in Ukraine because of the war. In the east, you can get stuff like rifles and ammo fairly easily[/QUOTE] Yeah, but you need to go there, get a grenade, get back to Kyiv, come to that demostration and throw the thing. Considering this, pretty sure that wasn't a spontaneous move.

The TV just said the police captured a suspect, a member of the "Sich" battalion with a grenade launcher

[QUOTE=antianan;48581621]Pretty sure that was a blatant and planned provocation. I mean, how many people do you know who have grenades near at hand? Not to mention those who have won't take a grenade to peaceful demonstration "just in case".[/QUOTE] Maidan protesters killed people with molotovs. Later they had firearms. This wasnt a peaceful protest too, early news point at classic ukrainian clashes with police involving bricks and planks, batons. But yea the grenade it extreme. I wouldnt call it a provocation still as the protesters basically demand the war to continue, you would expect them to be radicals. [editline]31st August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Laserbeams;48581697]The TV just said the police captured a suspect, a member of the "Sich" battalion with a grenade launcher[/QUOTE] Wow, genuinely surprised they didnt immediately blame it on russians and rebels. Has there been a change of politics? The government is turning against svoboda and the like?

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48581743]Wow, genuinely surprised they didnt immediately blame it on russians and rebels. Has there been a change of politics? The government is turning against svoboda and the like?[/QUOTE] If the culprit is actually one of the nationalists, then I don't see why the government wouldn't turn against them

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;48581697]The TV just said the police captured a suspect, a member of the "Sich" battalion with a grenade launcher[/QUOTE] Wiki is fast and the page for sich battalion mentions it. I've never even heard of this unit, it's tiny but apparently formed by svoboda. [url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sich_Battalion[/url] Also unlike other paramilitary units it's a police battalion.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48581743]But yea the grenade it extreme. I wouldnt call it a provocation still as the protesters basically demand the war to continue, you would expect them to be radicals. [/QUOTE] That's not at all why they're protesting. To them, their country is bending over a barrel and letting Russia literally iron fist it. They don't want a deal that severely weakens the country and makes it subservient. Some call for war, of course, but the majority just don't want to see Ukraine break apart at all.

[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;48581985]That's not at all why they're protesting. To them, their country is bending over a barrel and letting Russia literally iron fist it. They don't want a deal that severely weakens the country and makes it subservient. Some call for war, of course, but the majority just don't want to see Ukraine break apart at all.[/QUOTE] So what are the demands?

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48581995]So what are the demands?[/QUOTE] Respect of the territorial sovereignty of Ukraine as it's borders were defined under the Budapest Memorandum in 1994, along with the respect to withhold using military or economic force to pressure the country or influence it's politics, along with seeking IMMEDIATE UN Security Council action to actively stop anything which could be considered a military, economic, or because it's included, nuclear attack on the country. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances[/url]

The word is, Zaporozhye also wanted special status for themselves (in likes of Donetsk), but still be in Ukraine's authority. They were refused, and apparently were not happy with that.

[QUOTE=DoktorAkcel;48582305]The word is, Zaporozhye also wanted special status for themselves (in likes of Donetsk), but still be in Ukraine's authority. They were refused, and apparently were not happy with that.[/QUOTE] The law was passed regardless of these events. Ukraine will now be decentralized

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48581327]I still dont get what the protesters need this time[/QUOTE] They are far right wing protesters from what I understand. Least some of them are. They want the war to continue and for Ukraine to defeat the rebels, even though that's clearly leading to a lot more civilian deaths, etc. I am glad Ukraine is trying to end this a different way.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;48582506]The law was passed regardless of these events. Ukraine will now be decentralized[/QUOTE] as far as i know they only got 285 voices out of 300 required to pass and other parties including Batkivchina decided to vote against it. Soo... it's not passed?

Why is the far-right in Ukraine so pissy about Donetsk and Luhansk becoming autonomous regions? Crimea was an autonomous region before it was annexed by Russia and I don't remember any unltranationalists getting pissy about Crimea being autonomous.

[QUOTE=Taepodong-2;48583708]Why is the far-right in Ukraine so pissy about Donetsk and Luhansk becoming autonomous regions? Crimea was an autonomous region before it was annexed by Russia and I don't remember any unltranationalists getting pissy about Crimea being autonomous.[/QUOTE] Crimea is basically indisputably Russian, and it held special autonomous SSR status (i.e. it's not Russia or Ukraine proper) until 1954 and again in 1991. A Ukrainian nationalist could claim Donbas is Ukrainian, because the majority of the countryside is ethnically Ukrainian and the 1897 census reflected that. A Russian nationalist could point to the cities being dominated by Russians and named by greek-fetishizing Tsars, and the whole area being a multicultural Tsarist colony separate from historical Ukraine as well as being a Bolshevik stronghold in 1918 and likely pro-Soviet in 1941 (at least in contrast to West Ukraine, where recently-annexed Lviv shot at Red Army soldiers retreating from Nazis). Also, East Ukraine is far more wealthy than Crimea as well as more politically divided, and the nationalists just tried to fight for Donbas so it'd be seen as surrender. So basically, the area can be contested more and there's a lot of incentive to do it.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;48583058]as far as i know they only got 285 voices out of 300 required to pass and other parties including Batkivchina decided to vote against it. Soo... it's not passed?[/QUOTE] I'll keep checking up, but yea, you're right, it hasn't passed. Also, what's Russian media's take on this?

Well Kiev can either have a full scale invasion on Donbass, completely defeating all insurgents and razing the rest of the towns, or give in to federalization. The first outcome doesnt seem possible as they failed to do it so far and are thin on resources. Imo they should just give in. They are in a loosing position anyway as East Ukraine will remain hostile to them no matter who wins. I wonder, do DNR and LNR just want special status or do they want to become separate republics? Last time I checked they were like "we wanted special status, but now we are pissed at you so we want out completely". That was quite some time ago.

I doubt the decentralization idea will work, the rebels will just get bolder.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;48583058]as far as i know they only got 285 voices out of 300 required to pass and other parties including Batkivchina decided to vote against it. Soo... it's not passed?[/QUOTE] Ukrainian source: [url]http://www.rbc.ua/ukr/news/rada-odobrila-pervom-chtenii-izmeneniya-konstitutsii-1441015457.html[/url] [img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19945172/CNuqKZJVAAEEDhS.png[/img] For - 265 Against - 87 Abstained - 5 Didn't vote - 11 Total - 368 It was passed [editline]1st September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Reshy;48591337]I doubt the decentralization idea will work, the rebels will just get bolder.[/QUOTE] This wasn't done to appease the rebels, decentralization was one of the promises made on Maidan

[QUOTE=Reshy;48591337]I doubt the decentralization idea will work, the rebels will just get bolder.[/QUOTE] If it's introduced in areas where rebels don't have control and starts to actually have an impact, people will be less inclined to support secession and rebellion. After that it's pretty much just waiting for things to calm down.