[quote]
The shadow of the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA) is back in Europe. It is disguised as CETA, the Canada-European Union and Trade Agreement.[/quote]
[quote]Jérémie Zimmermann declared:
The only hard evidence on which we can base our analysis suggests the worst: once again, the European Commission and the EU Member States governments are trying to impose repressive measures against cultural practices online. (…) This trend of sneaking repressive measures through negotiated trade agreements must stop.[/quote]
[url]https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/10/ceta-replicates-acta[/url]
[url]http://euobserver.com/economic/116944[/url]
[quote]"A comparison of the leaked draft Canada-EU agreement shows the treaty includes a number of the same controversial provisions, specifically concerning criminal enforcement, private enforcement by Internet Service Providers (ISPs), and harsh damages."[/quote]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Economic_and_Trade_Agreement[/url]
Hardly surprising the [i]democratic[/i] European Union is trying to sneak this in, despite how it went with ACTA.
Oh dear, not again.
[QUOTE=koekje4life V2;38047644]Oh dear, not again.[/QUOTE]
One can hardly expect something like the EU to actually listen to its people, something I have mentioned countless of times. Even if this one gets shot down, itll be back up in a odd-year again.
As lame as all these laws are, CETA is a pretty cool acronym IMO.
[quote]Despite this there are encouraging signs of resistance—including that the Dutch government has stated that it would not accept CETA moving forward this way.[/quote]
Hurray for my country!
[QUOTE=The fox;38047680]Hardly surprising the democratic European Union is trying to sneak this in, despite how it went with ACTA.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=The fox;38047680]One can hardly expect something like the EU to actually listen to its people, something I have mentioned countless of times. Even if this one gets shot down, itll be back up in a odd-year again.[/QUOTE]
I heard plane tickets to Russia are cheap. You should look into them if you hate the EU this much.
It will get voted down again and life will go on
[QUOTE=smurfy;38047843]It will get voted down again and life will go on[/QUOTE]
Not to mention that we're much more riot prone in Europe, we actually make it known when we're pissed off at something, in addition to bitching about it on the internet.
[QUOTE=The fox;38047680]One can hardly expect something like the EU to actually listen to its people, something I have mentioned countless of times. Even if this one gets shot down, itll be back up in a odd-year again.[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah, because the EU ignored the people and allowed ACTA, right?
Oh no, the EU parliament rejected in in a landslide victory, and the EU courts upheld that. The courts signified that it would infringe our rights and for the EU commission to stop making these laws.
Because a few high ranking people in the EU commission =/= EU.
[quote]Hardly surprising the [i]democratic[/i] European Union is trying to sneak this in, despite how it went with ACTA.[/QUOTE]
The democratic EU stopped it passing because the democratic EU agreed it was a horrible law. Are you so blinded by your hate of the EU that you casually ignore facts?
And I was hoping they've learned their lessons. Shit didn't work out before, so why should it work now?
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38047859]Oh yeah, because the EU ignored the people and allowed ACTA, right?
Oh no, the EU parliament rejected in in a landslide victory, and the EU courts upheld that. The courts signified that it would infringe our rights and for the EU commission to stop making these laws.
Because a few high ranking people in the EU commission =/= EU.[/QUOTE]
Yet still they try to sneak this in via secret talks and re-introducing it. You'd think they would stop after ACTA if they actually cared - something they do not.
[quote]The copyright lobbies have consolidated on the use of foreign and international forums as an indirect means of pushing policies—a strategy known as policy laundering—like those ones in CETA that might never win direct approval through the regular domestic political. The move from fora like the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) or the World Trade Organization (WTO) to bilateral and regional trade agreements confirms it. Policy laundering takes advantage of the fact that the institutions nations have created for ensuring democratic control and input into the bureaucratic policymaking process have not yet been instituted into most international bodies and negotiation venues. And of course, the entertainment lobby applauds this. It is well known for instance, that provisions of the US DMCA were the result of policy laundering. This should not be the way we build 21st century agreements.[/quote]
[quote][b]Secrecy around negotiations is not democratic, violates the open government principles[/b] many of the negotiating countries have signed onto, and purposefully makes taking action much more difficult.[/quote]
[QUOTE=The fox;38047875]Yet still they try to sneak this in via secret talks and re-introducing it. You'd think they would stop after ACTA if they actually cared - something they do not.[/QUOTE]
No, the EU did not have secret talks. The EU Commission had talks and wanted to introduce a law LIKE the secretive SOPA that WAS made in secret. The EU as a whole rejected it.
They are lobbyists who try to get their way in the EU Comission as there are who control MEP's. That goes for any government that has an elective government.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38047909]No, the EU did not have secret talks. The EU Commission had talks and wanted to introduce a law LIKE the secretive SOPA that WAS made in secret. The EU as a whole rejected it.
They are lobbyists who try to get their way in the EU Comission as there are who control MEP's. That goes for any government that has an elective government.[/QUOTE]
[quote][b]However, given the lack of transparency associated with the CETA discussions (both Canada and EU insist that the draft text remain secret)[/b][/quote]
Did you even bother reading what I linked?
Or is the European Union so weak that they can not even keep their own branch from re-introducing the same thing that has been shot down before?
[QUOTE=The fox;38047914]Did you even bother reading what I linked?[/QUOTE]
Does that change anything[B][I] I[/I][/B] said?
So what if the discussion drafts remain secret? When it comes to a reading in the EU Parliament then it becomes a public matter. They can't vote on a 'secret law'. That doesn't happen.
[editline]15th October 2012[/editline]
Also, I want a link to that 'source', please
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38047936]Does that change anything[B][I] I[/I][/B] said?
So what if the discussion drafts remain secret? When it comes to a reading in the EU Parliament then it becomes a public matter. They can't vote on a 'secret law'. That doesn't happen.[/QUOTE]
You said there were no secret talks; Both parties involved in the making of this insist that the material regarding it is kept secret. Do you not see the link here? Even if the discussions between them, the very core, the fact that it is kept secret from the public, merely goes on to show they fear scrutiny.
The sources for all quotes in this thread can be found at the top, I have linked it all; You would have found that out if you had [b]actually bothered to read what i posted[/b].
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38047936]Does that change anything[B][I] I[/I][/B] said?
So what if the discussion drafts remain secret? When it comes to a reading in the EU Parliament then it becomes a public matter. They can't vote on a 'secret law'. That doesn't happen.
[editline]15th October 2012[/editline]
Also, I want a link to that 'source', please[/QUOTE]
I am certain it does, at least in his head, where the EU is a huge conspiracy.
[QUOTE=The fox;38047952]You said there were no secret talks; Both parties involved in the making of this insist that the material regarding it is kept secret. Do you not see the link here? Even if the discussions between them, the very core, the fact that it is kept secret from the public, merely goes on to show they fear scrutiny.[/QUOTE]
but it will face scrutiny at some point. whether it be today, tomorrow, whenever the hell they release the thing.
[QUOTE=VistaPOWA;38047957]I am certain it does, at least in his head, where the EU is a huge conspiracy.[/QUOTE]
"i cant come up with any valid counter arguments for it, so ill just claim hes a conspiracy nut! thatll show him"
good show there.
[QUOTE=Bobie;38047965]but it will face scrutiny at some point. whether it be today, tomorrow, whenever the hell they release the thing.[/QUOTE]
In that case, why do they bother re-introducing something that, according to the brilliant minds of certain FPers; will just get shot down once again? and feel the need to have it all made secret?
[QUOTE=The fox;38047952]You said there were no secret talks; Both parties involved in the making of this insist that the material regarding it is kept secret. Do you not see the link here? Even if the discussions between them, the very core, the fact that it is kept secret from the public, merely goes on to show they fear scrutiny.[/QUOTE]
There were no secret talks [I]IN EU PARLIAMENT[/I], where the laws are voted on and enacted. It doesn't matter if the comission, or Canada or the boy down the street are involved in private discussion - THEY don't enact the law, the EU parliament does. Once it hits there it's fully disclosed.
[QUOTE=The fox;38047966]In that case, why do they bother re-introducing something that, according to the brilliant minds of certain FPers; will just get shot down once again? and feel the need to have it all made secret?[/QUOTE]
because that's how lobbying works. if you don't like it, you have a problem with capitalism, not the eu
it never ends, this shit
[QUOTE=Bobie;38047989]because that's how lobbying works. if you don't like it, you have a problem with capitalism, not the eu[/QUOTE]
if that is the case, the lobbyists should know full well that the law will just get shot down again; so why bother lobby for it, unless there is a chance it will pass? certainly, you dont spend millions of dollars on something that is absolutely doomed to fail before it even takes off. that is not capitalism, well, unless you venture into certain areas, i guess; but i havent heard of lobbyists doing it just yet.
[QUOTE=The fox;38047966]"i cant come up with any valid counter arguments for it, so ill just claim hes a conspiracy nut! thatll show him"[/QUOTE]
You're not exactly brimming with points yourself.
[QUOTE=The fox;38047966]In that case, why do they bother re-introducing something that, according to the brilliant minds of certain FPers; will just get shot down once again? and feel the need to have it all made secret?[/QUOTE]
Because THE LOBBYISTS still want the law. They're paying good money to try and get SOME kind of law passed. They can put in 100 new ACTAs if they want - that's their democratic right, as it were. It doesn't mean it's not stupid, and that most of the MEP's who control the vote don't think it's stupid.
[QUOTE=The fox;38047914]Did you even bother reading what I linked?
Or is the European Union so weak that they can not even keep their own branch from re-introducing the same thing that has been shot down before?[/QUOTE]
Yo part of a democracy is that votes aren't a one-time thing. It's not like people vote on an issue and that remains law forever. The US, for example, has the house always passing complete abortion ban bills every year but the senate just shoots em down. It's a political statement, no chance of success. I don't think you can attack the EU for acting as a democracy proper.
As far as why the drafts were secret is probably down to negotiations. Democracies resolve conflicts by negotiation and diplomacy, simple fact. You've got to be able to bluff, to bargain, leverage and pressure. If the EU said "Well we're willing to give up <thing> in exchange for <thing not widely valued>" suddenly that first thing is now valued at the same as the latter. It thus becomes a weakness in the EU's negotiations. But as noted, the final copy, the one that gets voted on, is public knowledge because the EU is a democracy and it is transparent.
[QUOTE=The fox;38048002]if that is the case, the lobbyists should know full well that the law will just get shot down again; so why bother lobby for it, unless there is a chance it will pass?[/QUOTE]
they don't know the law will get shot down again. does it not occur to you that perhaps the people who think up this shit are completely out of touch with reality? let them waste their lobby money.
[QUOTE=Bobie;38048015]they don't know the law will get shot down again. does it not occur to you that perhaps the people who think up this shit are completely out of touch with reality? let them waste their lobby money.[/QUOTE]
Also there's differing opinions, different laws involved, different terms, different ministers (I think. Has the EU convened parliment?), different circumstances, different political climate. All sorts of things. They're perfectly allowed to push for laws that would benefit them, part of democracies and all that.
I think The Fox doesn't understand how democracy in every single democratic country works.
[QUOTE=Bobie;38048015]they don't know the law will get shot down again. does it not occur to you that perhaps the people who think up this shit are completely out of touch with reality? let them waste their lobby money.[/QUOTE]
well then, time will tell us how this will go down.
[QUOTE=The fox;38048036]well then, time will tell us how this will go down.[/QUOTE]
Giving up already? You're no fun.
[editline]15th October 2012[/editline]
Lol, "I don't anything to combat you with, so here are dumb ratings instead!1!"
[QUOTE=The fox;38048002][B]you dont spend millions of dollars on something that is absolutely doomed to fail before it even takes off. that is not capitalism, well, unless you venture into certain areas, i guess; but i havent heard of lobbyists doing it just yet[/B].[/QUOTE]
Hahahahahaha.
[QUOTE=The fox;38048036]well then, time will tell us how this will go down.[/QUOTE]
plenty of things get lobbied in and shot down all the time. acta and ceta are probably at the bottom of the barrel compared to [i]some[/i] industries' lobbying power
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