China's Plan For When Glorious Nation Runs Out of Unicorn Tears
24 replies, posted
[quote]China has drawn up detailed contingency plans for the collapse of the North Korean government, suggesting that Beijing has little faith in the longevity of Kim Jong-un’s regime.
Documents drawn up by planners from China’s People’s Liberation Army that were leaked to Japanese media include proposals for detaining key North Korean leaders and the creation of refugee camps on the Chinese side of the frontier in the event of an outbreak of civil unrest in the secretive state.[/quote]
[url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/10808719/China-plans-for-North-Korean-regime-collapse-leaked.html[/url]
I wonder how that would affect the populace of North Korea. That sort of culture shock and rapid assimilation couldn't be good for their collective psyche. Ultimately, would they be better off?
I hope North Korea is reunited with South Korea. Lets not have a scenario like post World War II where the Soviets pretty much made Poland a puppet state even though it wanted to be free. Except in this case, the Soviets would be China, but it's clear that the Korean peninsula should be one democratic free state.
[QUOTE=cqbcat;44733448]I hope North Korea is reunited with South Korea. Lets not have a scenario like post World War II where the Soviets pretty much made Poland a puppet state even though it wanted to be free. Except in this case, the Soviets would be China, but it's clear that the Korean peninsula should be one democratic free state.[/QUOTE]
It would literally cripple the South Korean economy and the culture shock would be intense to the point where there would be mass riots daily and it would create more panic than without.
Have there be a democratic north korea, but until its even stepped up to shape, reuniting would be a fucking terrible idea.
Infrastrucutre, education, the amount of supplies you'd have to send. It's literally more trouble than its worth.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;44733475]It would literally cripple the South Korean economy and the culture shock would be intense to the point where there would be mass riots daily and it would create more panic than without.
Have there be a democratic north korea, but until its even stepped up to shape, reuniting would be a fucking terrible idea.
Infrastrucutre, education, the amount of supplies you'd have to send. It's literally more trouble than its worth.[/QUOTE]
I disagree with being more trouble than it is worth. It's a matter of human rights, and there is no price too large to pay if it means people are treated with their basic unalienable rights.
[QUOTE=cqbcat;44733448]I hope North Korea is reunited with South Korea. Lets not have a scenario like post World War II where the Soviets pretty much made Poland a puppet state even though it wanted to be free. Except in this case, the Soviets would be China, but it's clear that the Korean peninsula should be one democratic free state.[/QUOTE]
Reuniting isn't a bad idea. Doing it immediately is. You have to do these things slowly, people can't adjust to change overnight. These people have lived their entire lives in the North Korean dictatorship. They don't know anything else. It'd be just as strange for them to undergo rapid modernization as it would be for you to go and live there now. Would you be able to handle the culture shock?
Out of the frying pan and into the fire
While china definitely isn't as bad as North Korea in terms of human rights, it still isn't great. I would much rather see North re-united with the South. And as for support i'm sure the U.S. (and possibly japan) will be interested in supporting integration of both Korea's
[QUOTE=woolio1;44733322]I wonder how that would affect the populace of North Korea. That sort of culture shock and rapid assimilation couldn't be good for their collective psyche. Ultimately, would they be better off?[/QUOTE]
It will be a land grab for the north and south.
Seoul needs a larger buffer zone, they also would like the land's resources, and liberating some of the people there.
North Korea has a bunch of natural resources just no real way to effectively mine them.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;44733475]It would literally cripple the South Korean economy and the culture shock would be intense to the point where there would be mass riots daily and it would create more panic than without.
Have there be a democratic north korea, but until its even stepped up to shape, reuniting would be a fucking terrible idea.
Infrastrucutre, education, the amount of supplies you'd have to send. It's literally more trouble than its worth.[/QUOTE]
I hear this argument a lot and, as a Korean, it kinda annoys me. This isn't just some game, but a people completely split apart for completely artificial reasons. Anyone who says that "it's not worth it" has no heart. Would you have told West Germany that it wasn't worth it to unite with the East? And even if we throw the emotional aspect out the window, it makes long term sense. It would suck economically in use beginning but once you've actually put in the infrastructure, we are talking about an incredibly rich region as far as natural resources go (which the Kim's do not have the money to extract). You open up that area to investment and baby, you got a stew going!
[QUOTE=draugur;44733497]I disagree with being more trouble than it is worth. It's a matter of human rights, and there is no price too large to pay if it means people are treated with their basic unalienable rights.[/QUOTE]
Human rights are an interesting concept... At what point does the quest for "human rights" end up doing more harm than good? Should innocent people die in the pursuit of their "basic human rights?" Should we risk destabilizing one of the world's largest export markets, potentially crippling the world economy, to give people their "human rights?"
It's idealistic. Utopian. Blind.
The world's a complicated place, filled with complicated ideas. We're complicated beings, after all. An immediate reunification of the Korean peninsula would ultimately dump an entire country's worth of homeless people into South Korea. You risk destabilizing the government, upsetting the economy, collapsing the entire geopolitical sphere.
It would be better to gradually build North Korea up to modern standards, both in terms of politics and economics, before trying to reunite the region. If you tried, and hit it hard, you could bring it up to speed in a couple of decades.
In that scenario, you don't run the risk of shattering a country's psychological balance. You don't risk moving an entire country into serfdom or homelessness. You don't damage people's lives, because they don't know any better right now.
It's better for them to remain blind, only for a little while.
[QUOTE=draugur;44733497]I disagree with being more trouble than it is worth. It's a matter of human rights, and there is no price too large to pay if it means people are treated with their basic unalienable rights.[/QUOTE]
Immediate reunification with South Korea isn't the only option. I don't think anyone would call for the continuation of the status quo but it would probably be beyond a single nation to clean up the mess of a humanitarian disaster that will be left behind when NK finally collapses.
[QUOTE=danharibo;44733607]Immediate reunification with South Korea isn't the only option. I don't think anyone would call for the continuation of the status quo but it would probably be beyond a single nation to clean up the mess of a humanitarian disaster that will be left behind when NK finally collapses.[/QUOTE]
I never spoke about immediate reunification as the option of choice, or one at all really. Just that the idea of trying to keep NK as it is because "it would cost too much" is wrong. It would probably require the resources of a good part of the world to help, but it can be done.
Just an idea, but let's say the day comes when North and South unite.
Maybe we could create "Culture Schools" to educate the North Koreans about all the wonderful cultures in the world.
They might learn a thing or two and maybe be inspired to see the world and learn alot.
Just some optimism here.
[QUOTE=cqbcat;44733448]I hope North Korea is reunited with South Korea. Lets not have a scenario like post World War II where the Soviets pretty much made Poland a puppet state even though it wanted to be free. Except in this case, the Soviets would be China, but it's clear that the Korean peninsula should be one democratic free state.[/QUOTE]
North Korea shouldn't be reunited with SK straight away, it seems easy just signing a piece of paper declaring the annexation of the DPRK but it isn't easy emotionally.
You got to remember there is over 22 million people living in NK with most of them brainwashed from the state to love and worship the Government like a God
To say that is false and say they were fucking terrible (which they were) will cause great harm across the nation, so the most likely outcome is that there will be a provisional government for a few years and then merge the country into one
But I'm no expert
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;44734105]North Korea shouldn't be reunited with SK straight away, it seems easy just signing a piece of paper declaring the annexation of the DPRK but it isn't easy emotionally.
You got to remember there is over 22 million people living in NK with most of them brainwashed from the state to love and worship the Government like a God
To say that is false and say they were fucking terrible (which they were) will cause great harm across the nation, so the most likely outcome is that there will be a provisional government for a few years and then merge the country into one
But I'm no expert[/QUOTE]
The only other country that had near-similar indoctrination efforts was the Empire of Japan.
Japan ended up surrendering amid horrid conditions on their homefront and the people were being bombed on a near-daily basis. Large amounts of their population were fanatical to the military and to their emperor.
The United States immediately marched in to occupy Japan and rebuilt it. In order to try to placate the people you gotta have the heads of state agree on terms of surrender or occupation, which in this case happened.
The idea that China would rather invade and occupy Korea rather than deal with a rogue Korea has always been pretty obvious.
[QUOTE=woolio1;44733591]Human rights are an interesting concept... At what point does the quest for "human rights" end up doing more harm than good? Should innocent people die in the pursuit of their "basic human rights?" Should we risk destabilizing one of the world's largest export markets, potentially crippling the world economy, to give people their "human rights?"
It's idealistic. Utopian. Blind.
The world's a complicated place, filled with complicated ideas. We're complicated beings, after all. An immediate reunification of the Korean peninsula would ultimately dump an entire country's worth of homeless people into South Korea. You risk destabilizing the government, upsetting the economy, collapsing the entire geopolitical sphere.
It would be better to gradually build North Korea up to modern standards, both in terms of politics and economics, before trying to reunite the region. If you tried, and hit it hard, you could bring it up to speed in a couple of decades.
In that scenario, you don't run the risk of shattering a country's psychological balance. You don't risk moving an entire country into serfdom or homelessness. You don't damage people's lives, because they don't know any better right now.
It's better for them to remain blind, only for a little while.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying you're wrong.
I'm just saying it's easy for people like me and (I assume) you to say that, being so far removed.
It's weird to imagine a world with only Korea instead of North/South. Pyongyang would be a thriving metropolis like Seoul, where people would fly in like any other city. And there would be museums of the old North Korean regime. Land that would once house starved, scared citizens would now be home to skyscrapers and businesses.
[QUOTE=draugur;44733497]I disagree with being more trouble than it is worth. It's a matter of human rights, and there is no price too large to pay if it means people are treated with their basic unalienable rights.[/QUOTE]
It would still be the German eunification, but a thousand times worse.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;44733962]Just an idea, but let's say the day comes when North and South unite.
Maybe we could create "Culture Schools" to educate the North Koreans about all the wonderful cultures in the world.
They might learn a thing or two and maybe be inspired to see the world and learn alot.
Just some optimism here.[/QUOTE]
Might as well call it what it is. "Rehabilitation" camps, that they will consider brainwashing.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;44733962]Just an idea, but let's say the day comes when North and South unite.
Maybe we could create "Culture Schools" to educate the North Koreans about all the wonderful cultures in the world.
They might learn a thing or two and maybe be inspired to see the world and learn alot.
Just some optimism here.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure there already are such schools in SK to handle NK defectors
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;44733962]Just an idea, but let's say the day comes when North and South unite.
Maybe we could create "Culture Schools" to educate the North Koreans about all the wonderful cultures in the world.
They might learn a thing or two and maybe be inspired to see the world and learn alot.
Just some optimism here.[/QUOTE]
Whilst North Korea is certainly a huge offender in terms of Culture-shock and the disparity between themselves and the outside world, Culture-Schools are in effect something the whole world could use. But its something that probably wont come about.
We've got innumerable barriers between Cultures and their infinite Sub-cultures within themselves. Racial boundaries. Practices, such as Music, Art and Literature. Gender boundaries, where its either Patriarchal, Matriarchal or attempted 'Equality'. The broad concepts of Homosexuality, Polygamy, Adultery and all such relationship material. You've got history to account for, such as previous wars between nations or other rivalries. There's the spin that Media can put on things. There is also the great stain of religion on humanity which is pervaded by all these previous things, leading to culture clashes and conflict of ideology.
I suppose its the prime detriment of 'higher thought' in sentient beings, such as Humans. We are individual but we are also highly susceptible to the collective opinion of the many. The exact same person raised in Poverty or raised in Wealth can turn out to have very different outlooks on life, as just one example.
Its a really tough issue.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];44734199']The idea that China would rather invade and occupy Korea rather than deal with a rogue Korea has always been pretty obvious.[/QUOTE]
that isn't anywhere in the article
[QUOTE=Medevila;44754135]You can only say that since you're so far removed from the rape, murder, and torture that North Koreans subjugated by their government live under
With the knowledge you hold now about the atrocities of the past would you feel the same about those who were interred during the Holocaust?[/QUOTE]
I think the argument is that after the government collapses, integration is not done instantly. It doesn't mean the international community has to allow the old shit to happen again.
Think of the concentration camp scene in Band of Brothers. They don't immediately let out the occupants, but close them in until they can get them adequate medical help and food. It doesn't benefit anyone to let them run to the woods and die.
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