Toyota is giving away Hydrogen-Fuel cells patents in order to jump-start commercial production of hy - Polidicks

[QUOTE] The automaker announced the decision, which covers some 5,680 patents, at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in Las Vegas. Many of the patents were used in the production of the Toyota Mirai, the company's new hydrogen fuel cell car. Nearly 2,000 of the patents are related to fuel cell stacks, 290 are associated with high-pressure hydrogen tanks and 3,350 are used with fuel cell system software controls. Others are used in construction of hydrogen-refueling stations. "By eliminating traditional corporate boundaries, we can speed the development of new technologies and move into the future of mobility more quickly, effectively and economically," said Bob Carter, an automotive operations executive at Toyota. [/QUOTE] [url]http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/05/autos/toyota-fuel-cell-patents/index.html?iid=HP_LN[/url]

Going the Tesla way, awesome.

Wow. Those patents all up must be worth billions.

As awesome as this is for Toyota to do such a thing, hydrogen fuel cell cars are not a viable technology. 80-90% of our hydrogen comes from natural gas wells and electrolysis of water costs a hell of a lot more energy than charging a battery. It's always more efficient to use energy as directly as possible rather than to convert it to another type of storage because of losses like heat production from electrolysis. Not to mention the safety issues of having a tank of hydrogen gas in your car, which can leak out of the tiniest holes.

The tank thing is just scaremongering. People have been driving LPG cars for years a compressed gas tank usually fares far better than a petrol tank in a crash!

[QUOTE=download;46867429]Wow. Those patents all up must be worth billions.[/QUOTE] Maybe the idea is that they want other people to be making it so it isn't just them with a few cars going "please accept us as a standard".

[QUOTE=Killuah;46867421]Going the Tesla way, awesome.[/QUOTE] It they get it right it will much more efficient and renewable than batteries as well. This is brilliant!

[QUOTE=zombini;46867439]As awesome as this is for Toyota to do such a thing, hydrogen fuel cell cars are not a viable technology. 80-90% of our hydrogen comes from natural gas wells and electrolysis of water costs a hell of a lot more energy than charging a battery. It's always more efficient to use energy as directly as possible rather than to convert it to another type of storage because of losses like heat production from electrolysis. Not to mention the safety issues of having a tank of hydrogen gas in your car, which can leak out of the tiniest holes.[/QUOTE] This is not just an efficiency problem, reach and infrastructure are a huge problem too, producing billions of electric car batteries is just not a thing we have the ressources for. A hydrogen cell is not as ressource intensive.(only speaking about the fuel here of course, not the motors) The current infrastructure already is shaped to transport fuel to depots.

Actually, we have a large enough current reserve of rare earth metals to produce more than enough batteries to satisfy a global need until about 2070 iirc.

[QUOTE=draugur;46867620]Actually, we have a large enough current reserve of rare earth metals to produce more than enough batteries to satisfy a global need until about 2070 iirc.[/QUOTE] That is not very long term at all though. Sure technology will improve and the metal requirements might/will change but having alternatives to alternatives is never a bad idea.

[QUOTE=draugur;46867620]Actually, we have a large enough current reserve of rare earth metals to produce more than enough batteries to satisfy a global need until about 2070 iirc.[/QUOTE] That doesn't sound very good at all. That' only 55 years away.

[QUOTE=Im Crimson;46867668]That doesn't sound very good at all. That' only 55 years away.[/QUOTE] Uhg, unless we have a major technology increase and can transmute shit we don't need into things we do need or something the world's going to be fucked when I'm 71+.

[QUOTE=Killuah;46867577]This is not just an efficiency problem, reach and infrastructure are a huge problem too, producing billions of electric car batteries is just not a thing we have the ressources for. [B]A hydrogen cell is not as ressource intensive.(only speaking about the fuel here of course, not the motors) [/B] The current infrastructure already is shaped to transport fuel to depots.[/QUOTE] Hydrogen motors can be (relatively) easily made by modifying standard gas engines. [t]http://i.imgur.com/FSsgzMb.jpg[/t][t]http://i.imgur.com/ZrpCUPl.jpg[/t] This Gremlin used a modified Ford V8 equipped with a propane carburetor to run off of a hydrogen fuel tank. [url]http://books.google.com/books?id=NNQDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA40&dq=UCLA+Gremlin&q=UCLA+Gremlin&hl=en#v=onepage&q=UCLA%20gremlin&f=false[/url]

[QUOTE=zombini;46867439]As awesome as this is for Toyota to do such a thing, hydrogen fuel cell cars are not a viable technology. 80-90% of our hydrogen comes from natural gas wells and electrolysis of water costs a hell of a lot more energy than charging a battery. It's always more efficient to use energy as directly as possible rather than to convert it to another type of storage because of losses like heat production from electrolysis. Not to mention the safety issues of having a tank of hydrogen gas in your car, which can leak out of the tiniest holes.[/QUOTE] True but the biggest thing standing in the way of Tesla and 100% electrical cars is the range and recharge times. I would opt in for buying a hydrogen car over a tesla just because I know it can be refueled quicker

[QUOTE=draugur;46867620]Actually, we have a large enough current reserve of rare earth metals to produce more than enough batteries to satisfy a global need until about 2070 iirc.[/QUOTE] That's great, but what about after 2070?

[QUOTE=Killuah;46867421]Going the Tesla way, awesome.[/QUOTE] More like going the non-GM way.

[QUOTE=Fetret;46867654]That is not very long term at all though. Sure technology will improve and the metal requirements might/will change but having alternatives to alternatives is never a bad idea.[/QUOTE] All the more reason to invest in efficient asteroid mining, man. If we wanna avoid a rare earth crisis (among other things), we gotta get to the Belt and have a cost-effective means of mining that shit for all its worth. Hell it'll get our asses of the Earth couch and help make Sol System our home, since its our birthright an' all.

Aren't fuel cells' power source just hydrogen that's been refined from natural gas? I don't quite understand the advantage of using one form of natural gas over the other?

[QUOTE=zombini;46867439]As awesome as this is for Toyota to do such a thing, hydrogen fuel cell cars are not a viable technology. 80-90% of our hydrogen comes from natural gas wells and electrolysis of water costs a hell of a lot more energy than charging a battery. It's always more efficient to use energy as directly as possible rather than to convert it to another type of storage because of losses like heat production from electrolysis. Not to mention the safety issues of having a tank of hydrogen gas in your car, which can leak out of the tiniest holes.[/QUOTE] At the same time, as nuclear, solar, and other non-fossil-fuel power sources expand, the issue is less finding an energy source and more finding a way to convert the energy we have into usable form. Charging a battery directly is one way, but that requires electric vehicle infrastructure set up across the country, and if Tesla is any indication that will be a very slow and gradual process that can't actually displace gasoline as long as people still drive gas-powered cars. But using the same power to perform electrolysis of water would give us a fuel source that can be distributed the same way as gasoline, and used in existing gasoline-burning cars with minimal modification. Electric may be more efficient but to switch from gasoline to electric altogether will mean upending the entire energy infrastructure of the country, and that's probably not going to happen.

[QUOTE=draugur;46867620]Actually, we have a large enough current reserve of rare earth metals to produce more than enough batteries to satisfy a global need until about 2070 iirc.[/QUOTE] Holy shit that's only in like 55 years. We must produce as much batteries as possible until that deadline.

[QUOTE=draugur;46867620]Actually, we have a large enough current reserve of rare earth metals to produce more than enough batteries to satisfy a global need until about 2070 iirc.[/QUOTE] That statistic is supposed to be worrying, not comforting.

That statistic is wrong, besides it's neodymium is a bigger limiting factor and that's needed for electric motors for hybrids, hydrogen, diesel electric, and EVs. Lithium can be pulled from seawater if demand is high enough. Not sure how environmentally friendly that will be. Battery technology can change but electric motors need powerful magnets and that means neodymium.

[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;46869151]That statistic is supposed to be worrying, not comforting.[/QUOTE] Can't rare earth metals be recycled though?

Did they design this thing in the 90s. [img_thumb]http://i.imgur.com/3JD8uFe.jpg[/img_thumb] [img_thumb]http://i.imgur.com/SLj4SOr.jpg[/img_thumb] [img_thumb]http://i.imgur.com/AdvBhtb.jpg[/img_thumb] [editline]6th January 2015[/editline] That's a $60,000 dollar car.

Good. Battery electric cars are simply not the answer. They are a band-aid solution everyone has a massive boner for because 'mah emishunz'. Hydrogen [i]is[/i]. It's a backwards compatible fuel. My '85 F150 will run quite happily on the stuff with minimal modification, and post-conversion would emit nothing but water vapor out the tailpipe, yet it also works in a fuel cell. We can convert a spark ignition engine for a few hundred bucks, so we don't need to push people to try to buy $40,000 cars they can't afford and don't want/can't use for their purposes. The more infrastructure we roll out for HFC cars the quicker we can start converting gasoline engines. Two birds, one stone, and the best part of it all is that gearheads get to keep their muscle cars! EVERYONE wins on Hydrogen.

[QUOTE=TestECull;46869498]Good. Battery electric cars are simply not the answer. They are a band-aid solution everyone has a massive boner for because 'mah emishunz'. Hydrogen [i]is[/i]. It's a backwards compatible fuel. My '85 F150 will run quite happily on the stuff with minimal modification, and post-conversion would emit nothing but water vapor out the tailpipe, yet it also works in a fuel cell. We can convert a spark ignition engine for a few hundred bucks, so we don't need to push people to try to buy $40,000 cars they can't afford and don't want/can't use for their purposes. The more infrastructure we roll out for HFC cars the quicker we can start converting gasoline engines. Two birds, one stone, and the best part of it all is that gearheads get to keep their muscle cars! EVERYONE wins on Hydrogen.[/QUOTE] Wait, hydrogen fuel is backwards compatible?

[QUOTE=BFG9000;46869510]Wait, hydrogen fuel is backwards compatible?[/QUOTE] With modifications. [editline]6th January 2015[/editline] If you put hydrogen in your gasoline tank you're going to have a bad time. [editline]6th January 2015[/editline] I actually don't even think conversions are possible without spending unholy amounts of money.

[QUOTE=Banhfunbags;46869116]Holy shit that's only in like 55 years. We must produce as much batteries as possible until that deadline.[/QUOTE] I'm buying car batteries now, in 55 years I'll be rich!

Hmm. Hydrogen. They should do some crash tests to make sure the car won't go boom if it crashes the right way. I mean, if they don't do this right, the future will be a Michael Bay movie.

[QUOTE=Im Crimson;46867668]That doesn't sound very good at all. That' only 55 years away.[/QUOTE] Though we can develop mining operations in space, since most of the asteroids in the solar system are rich in rare metals. And also one of the largest asteroids in the Solar System has at least 300 trillion times as much metal than we have ever mined out of the Earth itself. And a relatively small asteroid (about 1 km long) Has about 20 trillion USD worth of metal to be harvested.