Majority of people living in former Soviet states think that collapse of Soviet Union brought more h
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[quote]WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Reflecting back on the breakup of the Soviet Union that happened 22 years ago next week, residents in seven out of 11 countries that were part of the union are more likely to believe its collapse harmed their countries than benefited them. Only Azerbaijanis, Kazakhstanis, and Turkmens are more likely to see benefit than harm from the breakup. Georgians are divided.
Overall, residents of these former Soviet republics are more than twice as likely to say the breakup hurt (51%) than benefited their countries (24%). For many, life has not been easy since the Soviet Union dissolved in December 1991.
Adults between the ages of 15 and 44 -- some of whom were not even born or were very young at the time of the breakup -- are nearly three times as likely as those 65 and older to say the collapse benefited their countries. The picture is similar in all countries except Georgia, where residents in all age groups are as likely to say it was a benefit. Older residents in all 11 countries whose safety nets, such as guaranteed pensions and free healthcare, largely disappeared when the union dissolved are more likely to say the breakup harmed their countries.
Residents who say that "most people" in their country are afraid to openly express their political views are more likely to say that the collapse harmed their country than those who say that "no one" is afraid. This suggests the freedom they thought they might have after the fall of the Soviet Union has not materialized -- and in some cases, the situation may be even worse.
Overall, residents who see opportunities for their children and themselves to succeed are more likely to say the breakup benefited their country than those who do not. Thirty percent of residents of these former republics who say children in their country have the opportunity to learn and grow say their country benefited, compared with 18% who do not think children have this opportunity.
Although many residents of former Soviet republics believe the breakup caused more harm than good for their country, future generations may reflect on it differently. There are signs that this is already happening among younger generations.
Whatever happened in the past, the future is in these former republic's hands. Governments in these countries would be wise to focus not only on their country's economic prosperity, but also on creating opportunities for residents, including children, to succeed in an atmosphere where they feel free to speak their minds.[/quote]
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I guess it makes sense, but its not like things were good before.
Say in North Korea collapsed it'll be pretty obvious things would get worse.
At least they can move to America and live under obamas communism.
All those USSR factories that were used to produce war materials during the cold war were never transferred over to commercial/civilian production, that didn't help...
My ex girlfriend was bulgarian. I spoke with her father about communism, he preferred it.
"With communism we could go on holiday 2 or 3 times per year, now we can go anywhere but we cannot afford it"
Theres loads of people rooting through bins because they cannot afford food. In uk you see beggars in the street with smart phones and beer cans, in bulgaria you see people genuinely in need of help. Last year there were riots when the price of utilities went higher than minimum wage. The communist regime housed and fed people, people didn't have money but they could live in relative comfort, now people still don't have money but the government doesn't do a thing about it.
A shame, bulgaria is a beautiful country with a cool history.
It's different among the Polish. Very often when I spoke to Polish family members they saw the breakup of the USSR as a good thing in their view.
Given how Poland was treated under Soviet rule I can quite easily see why.
However, there was a lot of corruption even among my own family. My grandmother once traveled to Kiev where (with generous cash and permission) she was able to buy very cheap platinum jewelry, a colour television, get fur coats, etc. A lot of it was often produced by what was essentially slave labour.
This does not including the Baltic states, for example Estonia is most successful post USSR state, the benefit percentage would be very high there.
Considering the plummeting of economies, populations and standard of livings in most of these countries of course it was a harmful thing for them. And while the citizens get a transparent view of the outside world and have more freedoms in general, there's still astounding political corruption, human rights violations and lack of political freedom.
Although some things are better, if Gorbachev had known what he was doing, or perhaps the transition to market economy was more like that of China things would be much better off that the hopeless state they're in now.
They're right though. The Soviet states weren't prepared to function on their own, and that includes Russia. The breakup was too harsh and too immediate.
It doesn't help that the 21st century exposed them to corruption they weren't aware of under the USSR - to them that aspect certainly seems worse.
You see a lot of old people always saying that under Ceausescu everything was so awesome, even though Romania right now is like 4 times richer than it was in 1989 after the revolution.
I think the reason for such results is that those who lived under communism/USSR also have the best moments of their lives linked to the regime, it doesn't necessarily mean that they lived better back then.
[QUOTE=teh pirate;43283448]They're right though. The Soviet states weren't prepared to function on their own, and that includes Russia. The breakup was too harsh and too immediate.
It doesn't help that the 21st century exposed them to corruption they weren't aware of under the USSR - to them that aspect certainly seems worse.[/QUOTE]
I think corruption still existed in the USSR.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43283334]I guess it makes sense, but its not like things were good before.
Say in North Korea collapsed it'll be pretty obvious things would get worse.[/QUOTE]
Because the soviet union filled NK to the brim with support, when they asked for money NK couldn't provide and China wasn't willing to help which meant that flow stopped
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43283463]You see a lot of old people always saying that under Ceausescu everything was so awesome, even though Romania right now is like 4 times richer than it was in 1989 after the revolution.
[/QUOTE]
Richer doesn't mean anything when food is more expensive, you pay for housing and most of that money is in the hands of the few anyway.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43283475]Richer doesn't mean anything when food is more expensive, you pay for housing and most of that money is in the hands of the few anyway.[/QUOTE]
Dunno what bullshit your ex-girlfriends dad got into your head, but that's stupid.
During communism EVERYTHING was rationed. To get food you had to wait into a line for HOURS with a ration card and there was always the possibility the store would've been empty when your turn came up, electricity was only for a few hours during the day, same with heating and other basic necessities, barely anyone had a car and public transport was filled to the brim all the time. A lot of cities were decaying and polluted to fuck because old buildings were ignored and a lot of factories were built.
Housing was free yeah, but you think these commieblocks are that great? Hell no, most of them didn't even have proper plumbing and heating installed into them. Those were upgraded only now,after the revolution.
Now you can see cars everywhere, everyone has at least a TV and some sort of PC in the house, don't you worry about the food because now during the holidays you hear on the news people getting carried to the hospital because they ate too much.
I have no clue what the situation is in Bulgaria, but here life is clearly better than during Ceausescu. The people didn't shoot him and his wife because we lived so nicely.
[URL]http://zoom.mediafax.ro/best-of/24-de-ani-de-la-revolutia-romana-11786667[/URL]
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43283584]Dunno what bullshit your ex-girlfriends dad got into your head, but that's stupid.
During communism EVERYTHING was rationed. To get food you had to wait into a line for HOURS with a ration card and there was always the possibility the store would've been empty when your turn came up, electricity was only for a few hours during the day, same with heating and other basic necessities, barely anyone had a car and public transport was filled to the brim all the time. A lot of cities were decaying and polluted to fuck because old buildings were ignored and a lot of factories were built.
Housing was free yeah, but you think these commieblocks are that great? Hell no, most of them didn't even have proper plumbing and heating installed into them. Those were upgraded only now,after the revolution.
Now you can see cars everywhere, everyone has at least a TV and some sort of PC in the house, don't you worry about the food because now during the holidays you hear on the news people getting carried to the hospital because they ate too much.
I have no clue what the situation is in Bulgaria, but here life is clearly better than during Ceausescu. The people didn't shoot him and his wife because we lived so nicely.
[URL]http://zoom.mediafax.ro/best-of/24-de-ani-de-la-revolutia-romana-11786667[/URL][/QUOTE]
also you had to bribe people and kiss ass just get on the LIST to get a chance to buy a car
you couldnt just fucking buy a car, you had to be on a list and the waiting time for actually getting a car AFTER being on the list was TWENTY FUCKING YEARS
same thing with phones in houses, it was usual to wait for 10 or more years on another list to get a phone
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43283379]My ex girlfriend was bulgarian. I spoke with her father about communism, he preferred it.
"With communism we could go on holiday 2 or 3 times per year, now we can go anywhere but we cannot afford it"
Theres loads of people rooting through bins because they cannot afford food. In uk you see beggars in the street with smart phones and beer cans, in bulgaria you see people genuinely in need of help. Last year there were riots when the price of utilities went higher than minimum wage. The communist regime housed and fed people, people didn't have money but they could live in relative comfort, now people still don't have money but the government doesn't do a thing about it.
A shame, bulgaria is a beautiful country with a cool history.[/QUOTE]
Yo, Bulgarian here (24 years old, saw the fall of communism here firsthand).
But you're basically right. I remember by grandpa telling me how only on his student scholarship he could go to Poland, East Germany, Czechoslovakia in one summer and still have money to pay his rent almost every other month.
On the other hand though, the shittiest black and white TV costed like 300 leva which adjusting for inflation is more than $1000 USD right now. So on one hand, things were good on the other - apalling.
[editline]23rd December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43283584]Dunno what bullshit your ex-girlfriends dad got into your head, but that's stupid.
During communism EVERYTHING was rationed. To get food you had to wait into a line for HOURS with a ration card and there was always the possibility the store would've been empty when your turn came up, electricity was only for a few hours during the day, same with heating and other basic necessities, barely anyone had a car and public transport was filled to the brim all the time. A lot of cities were decaying and polluted to fuck because old buildings were ignored and a lot of factories were built.
Housing was free yeah, but you think these commieblocks are that great? Hell no, most of them didn't even have proper plumbing and heating installed into them. Those were upgraded only now,after the revolution.
Now you can see cars everywhere, everyone has at least a TV and some sort of PC in the house, don't you worry about the food because now during the holidays you hear on the news people getting carried to the hospital because they ate too much.
I have no clue what the situation is in Bulgaria, but here life is clearly better than during Ceausescu. The people didn't shoot him and his wife because we lived so nicely.
[URL]http://zoom.mediafax.ro/best-of/24-de-ani-de-la-revolutia-romana-11786667[/URL][/QUOTE]
Definitely not the same here... I'm sorry for you guys - we had everything relatively humane and normal here - sure you couldn't speak against the party, but at least you could live. I guess it's just Ceausescu's power getting to his head, mate.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43283475]Richer doesn't mean anything when food is more expensive, you pay for housing and most of that money is in the hands of the few anyway.[/QUOTE]
Also
[IMG]http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5966/pkhd.png[/IMG]
GDP per Capita basically shows the standard of living in a country, just FYI.
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43283897]Also
[IMG]http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5966/pkhd.png[/IMG]
GDP per Capita basically shows the standard of living in a country, just FYI.[/QUOTE]
maybe to the simple mind without analysis
you cannot look at that one indicator and say the standard of living is higher
The majority is a bunch of dumb conservative old people
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;43284013]The majority is a bunch of dumb conservative old people[/QUOTE]
A huge number of people left former soviet states after the fall to get a better life. The only people left are those reminiscing about the past, notice how old people are 3x more likely to say the fall of the USSR brought more harm than good.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;43284029]A huge number of people left former soviet states after the fall to get a better life.[/QUOTE]
People tried to leave all the time before as well.
The only reason I live in Britain right now is because my (deceased) grandfather was able to bend/twist the soviet system enough that he could organize for his family to leave Poland and move here just at the end of the 70s.
After that, the rest of the extended family quickly left, although they are still petitioning the Russian government to get back some of the land they used to have in the Russian Empire/interwar Poland.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;43284013]The majority is a bunch of dumb conservative old people[/QUOTE]
Source please.
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43283897]Also
[IMG]http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5966/pkhd.png[/IMG]
GDP per Capita basically shows the standard of living in a country, just FYI.[/QUOTE]
Pretty graph. Look at food prices
[url]http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?s[/url][1][id]=CP0111ROM086NEST
[url]http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CP0114ROM086NEST[/url]
They have gone up by the same factor. Also GDP is an average for the entire country, increase in GDP isn't proportional to the increase in disposable income per person.
According to this article (this snippet is sourced from the cia factbook)
[url]http://www.neumann.edu/academics/divisions/business/journal/Review2012/LeesonLindenfelser.pdf[/url]
"The top ten percent of income
households consume approximately twenty one percent of the country’s
total GDP while the lowest ten percent only consumes around one
percent"
GDP might have gone up but so has the cost of living. The article states that the inequality has got worse. "The inequality gap continued to widen throughout the
1990s and into the new millennium" So the cost of living has stayed in relative proportion to the gdp the amount of that gdp being attributed to the poor has got worse, meaning in relative terms the cost of living for the poor has got worse.
Your GDP arguement is empty.
Do not use what happened in romania as an arguement for communism being bad in a different country. What happened to Romania was bad, bulgaria was better (not great) but the fact is some people did prefer the communist regime.
Communism has its flaws and so does capitalism. I happen to prefer the ideal of people being fed and housed regardless of their situation.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43283465]I think corruption still existed in the USSR.[/QUOTE]
I know - but to these people it's more visible than it was under the USSR.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;43284029]A huge number of people left former soviet states after the fall to get a better life. The only people left are those reminiscing about the past, notice how old people are 3x more likely to say the fall of the USSR brought more harm than good.[/QUOTE]
People leaving a place doesn't mean they have it better when they get there. Old people were subject to USSR propaganda but also lived in the time so have more experience of it than say a 20 year old who wasn't even born when the USSR was dissolved and has been brought up with western propaganda.
Younger people saying it did good are doing so because they have been told and indoctrinated to think so, they haven't actually experienced it, only the train wreck which happened afterwards.
USSR wasn't great but communism gets alot of stick. Capitalism isn't the shining beacon of equality and morality people pretend it is.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43284172]Pretty graph. Look at food prices
[url]http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?s[/url][1][id]=CP0111ROM086NEST
[url]http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CP0114ROM086NEST[/url]
They have gone up by the same factor. Also GDP is an average for the entire country, increase in GDP isn't proportional to the increase in disposable income per person.
According to this article (this snippet is sourced from the cia factbook)
[url]http://www.neumann.edu/academics/divisions/business/journal/Review2012/LeesonLindenfelser.pdf[/url]
"The top ten percent of income
households consume approximately twenty one percent of the country’s
total GDP while the lowest ten percent only consumes around one
percent"
GDP might have gone up but so has the cost of living. The article states that the inequality has got worse. "The inequality gap continued to widen throughout the
1990s and into the new millennium" So the cost of living has stayed in relative proportion to the gdp the amount of that gdp being attributed to the poor has got worse, meaning in relative terms the cost of living for the poor has got worse.
Your GDP arguement is empty.
Do not use what happened in romania as an arguement for communism being bad in a different country. What happened to Romania was bad, bulgaria was better (not great) but the fact is some people did prefer the communist regime.
Communism has its flaws and so does capitalism. I happen to prefer the ideal of people being fed and housed regardless of their situation.[/QUOTE]
Oh so all this time I was arguing with a commie.
I will stop then before I will get banned for flaming.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43284266]People leaving a place doesn't mean they have it better when they get there. Old people were subject to USSR propaganda but also lived in the time so have more experience of it than say a 20 year old who wasn't even born when the USSR was dissolved and has been brought up with western propaganda.
Younger people saying it did good are doing so because they have been told and indoctrinated to think so, they haven't actually experienced it, only the train wreck which happened afterwards.
USSR wasn't great but communism gets alot of stick. Capitalism isn't the shining beacon of equality and morality people pretend it is.[/QUOTE]
I think most people would prefer capitalism to communism.
And what do you mean by western propaganda? I went into a book shop yesterday and bought a book written by an anarchist. At least there's plurality here.
Communism is mostly looked down on because it hasn't been fully tested and most attempts to try it out have failed.
Still, I guess I should be happy that I live in a country with a functioning economy.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43284266]People leaving a place doesn't mean they have it better when they get there. Old people were subject to USSR propaganda but also lived in the time so have more experience of it than say a 20 year old who wasn't even born when the USSR was dissolved and has been brought up with western propaganda.
Younger people saying it did good are doing so because they have been told and indoctrinated to think so, they haven't actually experienced it, only the train wreck which happened afterwards.
USSR wasn't great but communism gets alot of stick. Capitalism isn't the shining beacon of equality and morality people pretend it is.[/QUOTE]
Well they consider young people to be 15-30. So a lot of them would've at least remembered the effects of communism and the fall and such. Maybe they didn't endure communism their entire life, but they at least experienced a bit of it.
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43283897]Also
[IMG]http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5966/pkhd.png[/IMG]
GDP per Capita basically shows the standard of living in a country, just FYI.[/QUOTE]
Sorry.
That's not true.
GDP is how much the final production of a country is worth into a determined period of time.
GDP per capita is that amount divided by the total population.
It doesn't show the standard of living. It shows how much wealth there is for each habitant. If the GDP p/capita is 16.000, it doesn't mean that each one has a salary of 16.000.
And what the fuck people? Seriously?
Capitalism >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Feudalism >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Communism (Socialist anarchist revolutionaries of facepunch gtfo, we both know what communism means in this context, don't come over with all those fucking definitions)
You just can't be endorsing communism because capitalism is "bad".
In any case, saying that they were better before is just pure bullshit. It's the old "Past ages were better" idea. "Hurrr hurrr, Germany is now groB poor. Mr Hitler had kaufst volkswagen for alles and wir had autobahn in der ganzen land"
Please.
Assholes say that in capitalism you get spray peppered in the eye and arrested during protests, at least they get to retain their lives, unlike what happened in the old soviet states.
EDIT: Nah, fucking late.
[QUOTE]I happen to prefer the ideal of people being fed and housed regardless of their situation.[/QUOTE]
Which can be totally implemented into capitalism.
You just stated a false dichotomy.
Don't believe me? Let's go and ask our scandinavian friends.
Btw, let's start talking about food scarcity in the soviet states, because distribution was handled in the worst way possible.
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