Pro-Ukrainian far-right militia threaten to pull back from frontline and march on Kiev. - Polidicks

[quote=BBC]More than 2,000 civilians and combatants have been killed since mid-April, when Ukraine's government sent troops to put down an uprising by pro-Russian separatists in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.But it faced a new challenge on Sunday as the leader of the ultra-nationalist Right Sector [URL="http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/08/17/letter-to-the-president-of-ukraine-from-the-right-sector-military-political-movement/"]threatened to withdraw volunteers[/URL] fighting on the government side. Dmytro Yarosh said Right Sector would launch a "campaign in Kiev" if its demands, including the release of detained members, were not met within 48 hours. He called on President Petro Poroshenko to "immediately bring order" to the Interior Ministry, which he accused of harbouring "revanchist forces". [IMG]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76432000/jpg/_76432128_line976.jpg[/IMG] [B]Analysis: David Stern, BBC News, Kiev [/B]Ukraine's government seems to have made a devil's bargain, by allowing the formation of loosely-controlled paramilitary groups to fight in the country's east. That some of these volunteers are ultranationalists, far-right extremists and sometimes even neo-Nazis seemed to be worth the gamble. Anyone who was willing to risk his life to defend Ukraine at this critical juncture was welcome. Also figuring into their logic was the fact that the insurgency itself is a more pressing threat than far-right fighters, that these individuals are a minority among the Ukrainian forces and that Nazis and extremists are heavily represented among the pro-Russian militants. Still, there has been virtually no public debate about whether it was a good idea to give guns to people and groups with extremist views. Now, with Right Sector threatening to march on the capital to enforce their demands, maybe this very overdue discussion will begin.[/quote] [URL]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28825307[/URL] I find it remarkable that Kiev would want to jump into bed with those facists in the first place - not to mention it legitimizes some of grievances pro-russians have in the East. Right Sector and friends were always going to manipulate the events in Ukraine to grab power.

Ukrainian Army would be pretty fucked without these guys though which is the problem. They are sorta the goto guys for creating beachheads into rebel positions.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45720356]Ukrainian Army would be pretty fucked without these guys though which is the problem. They are sorta the goto guys for creating beachheads into rebel positions.[/QUOTE] I think the cost of using neo-nazis as shock troopers is really starting to outweigh the benefits...

Read about this earlier, ugly mess if you ask me. There was a report Ukrainian government stormed an office of Right Sector and confiscated a literally truck full of grenades and automatic rifles.

Frankly, I think rejecting Neo-Nazis is more than just taking the moral high ground, even if it costs the Ukrainian government. We saw what happened when they started letting extremists represent the Syrian rebels, and I don't want the same thing to happen here.

[QUOTE=Jamsponge;45720584]We saw what happened when they started letting extremists represent the Syrian rebels, and I don't want the same thing to happen here.[/QUOTE] While I agree in a way - the two situations are not comparable. While extremists are a minority in both cases - the problem with Syria was that the most funded, equipped and trained factions were the extreme ones - which isn't the case here. Plus Assad pretty much left ISIS and friends alone while he focused on destroying the FSA and moderate factions - so he can have the extremist terrorist card in his back pocket for later. The guy had no qualms with gassing his own towns and he certainly doesn't have qualms about cultivating terrorism in his own country to justify himself. Again that is something that can't happen in this situation.

[QUOTE=Gentry;45720382]I think the cost of using neo-nazis as shock troopers is really starting to outweigh the benefits...[/QUOTE] What's the Ukrainian for Freikorps?

[QUOTE=Gentry;45720382]I think the cost of using neo-nazis as shock troopers is really starting to outweigh the benefits...[/QUOTE] That is truth, but without a bunch of crazed Neo-Nazi volunteers that are literally coming from across Europe and even America to fight, they'd be wedged into a very tough position with how to deal with rebel fortifications. I mean just last week these guys literally took down three major rebel frontlines at Dontesk while only taking two deaths, and ten wounded. These guys are not just some crazed killers, they are trained and deadly. Fully capable of taking Kiev if they so wish. Another thing to realize is that a lot of these neo-nazis will not just stop in Ukraine, one example I have in mind is that Neo-Nazis from around the world are using this as a training field for militia groups and such. Lot of these guys will be going back to places like Scandinavia, United Kingdom, Greece, Australia, and North America with training that can be passed down to other neo-nazi groupies. I had actually been offered by a friend of mine in the United Kingdom to go and join as a foreign volunteer as we talk quiet frequently about the blackmarket and such. His reasons for going is that he wants to learn more about the weapons being used by the rebels, and possibly take some weapons back home to sell in the United Kingdom.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45720678]That is truth, but without a bunch of crazed Neo-Nazi volunteers that are literally coming from across Europe and even America to fight, they'd be wedged into a very tough position with how to deal with rebel fortifications. I mean just last week these guys literally took down three major rebel frontlines at Dontesk while only taking two deaths, and ten wounded. These guys are not just some crazed killers, they are trained and deadly. Fully capable of taking Kiev if they so wish. Another thing to realize is that a lot of these neo-nazis will not just stop in Ukraine, one example I have in mind is that Neo-Nazis from around the world are using this as a training field for militia groups and such. Lot of these guys will be going back to places like Scandinavia, United Kingdom, Greece, Australia, and North America with training that can be passed down to other neo-nazi groupies. I had actually been offered by a friend of mine in the United Kingdom to go and join as a foreign volunteer as we talk quiet frequently about the blackmarket and such. His reasons for going is that he wants to learn more about the weapons being used by the rebels, and possibly take some weapons back home to sell in the United Kingdom.[/QUOTE] Sounds like a lot of conjecture. Without trying to be rude or anything.

[QUOTE=Gentry;45720783]Sounds like a lot of conjecture. Without trying to be rude or anything.[/QUOTE] I am worried about people [url=http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/foreigners-join-far-right-militias-in-ukraine-s-fight-against-rebels-1.1868779]such as this[/url] which will be returning to their home countries with the ability to train people in the ability to fight a war. They have the knowledge, and experience and that's a somewhat terrifying prospect.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45720356]Ukrainian Army would be pretty fucked without these guys though which is the problem. They are sorta the goto guys for creating beachheads into rebel positions.[/QUOTE] The nationalists are only the most reliable because the Ukrainian Army is compromised to hell. UA is full of fake Generals and Russian sympathizers, it's in desperate need of a purge if they haven't done so already.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45720899]I am worried about people [url=http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/foreigners-join-far-right-militias-in-ukraine-s-fight-against-rebels-1.1868779]such as this[/url] which will be returning to their home countries with the ability to train people in the ability to fight a war. They have the knowledge, and experience and that's a somewhat terrifying prospect.[/QUOTE] 400-500 men doesn't sound like too much.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45723237]400-500 men doesn't sound like too much.[/QUOTE] One neo-nazi detonated bombs in Oslo, and slaughtered roughly 80 people, a North American Militia Member by the name of Timothy Mcveigh is responsible for greatest loss of life on American soil by a domestic terrorist, and a small group of men brought down the World Trade Centers and are responsible for a total of three wars and current ongoing conflicts in the Middle East... Totaling somewhere at 500,000 to 1,000,000 deaths. Trust me. One man or women can do a lot of damage in a short time frame. We can create, but we are better at destroying.

Was going to happen sooner or later. If they had been rejected right after maiden they would have tried a similar stunt. They clearly don't care about Ukraine though, this is literally giving the East guys more fuel for their fire.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45724135]One neo-nazi detonated bombs in Oslo, and slaughtered roughly 80 people, a North American Militia Member by the name of Timothy Mcveigh is responsible for greatest loss of life on American soil by a domestic terrorist, and a small group of men brought down the World Trade Centers and are responsible for a total of three wars and current ongoing conflicts in the Middle East... Totaling somewhere at 500,000 to 1,000,000 deaths. Trust me. One man or women can do a lot of damage in a short time frame. We can create, but we are better at destroying.[/QUOTE] none of those went abroad though so I think you're building a point upon mostly conjecture and tabloid articles.

Wow, that would be great. Neo-nazi against oligarchs against separatists. If this happens oligarchs would most luckily flee, nazi get destroyed by separatists (with the help of the West this time because as much as everyone hates the rebels nazi at power are far less controllable) and maybe the war would end.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;45725998]Wow, that would be great. Neo-nazi against oligarchs against separatists. If this happens oligarchs would most luckily flee, nazi get destroyed by separatists (with the help of the West this time because as much as everyone hates the rebels nazi at power are far less controllable) and maybe the war would end.[/QUOTE] There are more neo-nazi's in the separatist forces than on the government side so your little narrative doesn't add up. [quote]Also figuring into their logic was the fact that the insurgency itself is a more pressing threat than far-right fighters, that these individuals are a [B]minority among the Ukrainian forces and that Nazis and extremists are heavily represented among the pro-Russian militants[/B].[/quote]

[QUOTE=Gentry;45726012]There are more neo-nazi's in the separatist forces than on the government side so your little narrative doesn't add up.[/QUOTE] I will agree on that when you show me some separatists yelling nationalists things. And what kind of nationalists are they? Ukrainian, Russian? Because the West claims rebels are Russian mercenaries. So why would neo-nazi russians fight in Ukraine for Ukraine? I am really confused. And uh, BBC. [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] Opinions away it would still be nice to see the Ukrainian government fall into the pit they digged. Using neo-nazis as a driving force must backfire one day.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;45726042]I will agree on that when you show me some separatists yelling nationalists things. And what kind of nationalists are they? Ukrainian, Russian? Because the West claims rebels are Russian mercenaries. So why would neo-nazi russians fight in Ukraine for Ukraine? I am really confused. And uh, BBC.[/QUOTE] Its remarkable that you haven't noticed that a russian nationalist uprising happened in Ukraine. [IMG]http://america.aljazeera.com/content/ajam/multimedia/photo-gallery/2014/4/ukraine-donetsk-photos/_jcr_content/slideShowImages/slide2/image.adapt.960.high.jpg[/IMG] [I]~not nationalists~[/I] uh BBC what?

[QUOTE=Gentry;45726054]Its remarkable that you haven't noticed that a russian nationalist uprising happened in Ukraine. [IMG]http://america.aljazeera.com/content/ajam/multimedia/photo-gallery/2014/4/ukraine-donetsk-photos/_jcr_content/slideShowImages/slide2/image.adapt.960.high.jpg[/IMG] [I]~not nationalists~[/I] uh BBC what?[/QUOTE] Neo-Nazi =/= nationalists. not to mention that you had entire Maidan going under EU flags. People wave flags to show their allegence with factions they wish to be supported by, this does not makes them nationalists on sights.

[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity[/URL] [IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oTIY7H_Meas/U-vtf9eJMJI/AAAAAAAACNo/_Jhj666plDk/s1600/RNE-August-01.jpg[/IMG] except there are pictures of pro-russian neo-nazi organisations in Eastern Ukraine all over the internet soo

[QUOTE=Gentry;45726054][img]http://america.aljazeera.com/content/ajam/multimedia/photo-gallery/2014/4/ukraine-donetsk-photos/_jcr_content/slideShowImages/slide2/image.adapt.960.high.jpg[/img] [I]~not nationalists~[/I] uh BBC what?[/QUOTE] The Russians there most luckily ARE nationalists. I hate that too. Russian nationalism is on a huge rise and is turning into a mass fever. However they are still not neo-nazi. They don't kill Ukrainians for being Ukrainian. At the same time regular people in Western Ukraine disgrace people for being from Donbass: deny jobs, don't let them rent houses, even deny what their government proved to provide at any times - things like renewing passports when the law dictates too. I have talked to 2 women, who fled from Ukraine to Russia during my hitchhiking trip to Rostov-na-Donu (where Yanukovich is hiding, among other 48000 runaway Ukrainians) which is 100 km from Ukrainian border. One was from Donbass, then moved to Харьков (I don't remember how exactly its spelled in english), other was from a small town near Donetsk and is pro-Ukrainian. So I heard both points of view. At the same time - Russians give jobs to Ukrainians just fine. One guy from Odessa works at my parent's shop. - Russian government helps Ukrainian soldiers and regular people. - Russian government sends humanitarian aid to both sides of conflict. I can't call Russians nazis. Nationalists - yes. Fuck them - yes. [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Gentry;45726104][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity[/url] [img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oTIY7H_Meas/U-vtf9eJMJI/AAAAAAAACNo/_Jhj666plDk/s1600/RNE-August-01.jpg[/img] except there are pictures of pro-russian neo-nazi organisations all over the internet soo[/QUOTE] It's a big problem in Russia. But not in Donbass. At least we haven't heard of it.

[QUOTE=Gentry;45726104][URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity[/URL] [IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oTIY7H_Meas/U-vtf9eJMJI/AAAAAAAACNo/_Jhj666plDk/s1600/RNE-August-01.jpg[/IMG] except there are pictures of pro-russian neo-nazi organisations in Eastern Ukraine all over the internet soo[/QUOTE] Emm, in wiki it says they are inactive and yeah, what muffin said, there is a huge difference between being fanatic about your nation and killing others who deny it.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;45726108]The Russians there most luckily ARE nationalists. I hate that too. Russian nationalism is on a huge rise and is turning into a mass fever. However they are still not neo-nazi. They don't kill Ukrainians for being Ukrainian. At the same time regular people in Western Ukraine disgrace people for being from Donbass: deny jobs, don't let them rent houses, even deny what their government proved to provide at any times - things like renewing passports when the law dictates too. I have talked to 2 women, who fled from Ukraine to Russia during my hitchhiking trip to Rostov-na-Donu (where Yanukovich is hiding, among other 48000 runaway Ukrainians) which is 100 km from Ukrainian border. One was from Donbass, then moved to Харьков (I don't remember how exactly its spelled in english), other was from a small town near Donetsk and is pro-Ukrainian. So I heard both points of view. At the same time - Russians give jobs to Ukrainians just fine. One guy from Odessa works at my parent's shop. - Russian government helps Ukrainian soldiers and regular people. - Russian government sends humanitarian aid to both sides of conflict. I can't call Russians nazis. Nationalists - yes. Fuck them - yes. [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] It's a big problem in Russia. But not in Donbass. At least we haven't heard of it.[/QUOTE] So what my last girlfriend was a Russian Ukrainian so we both can play the dumb anecdote game. You said I couldn't find any evidence of Separatists yelling nationalistic things. And I did within seconds so stop moving the goalposts because you can't find a functioning argument. [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=karimatrix;45726118]Emm, in wiki it says they are inactive[/QUOTE] [img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1rcXJPKQmUY/U-vuTCPmoII/AAAAAAAACOA/P3RvdgERJmY/s1600/RNE-August-04-Horlivka.jpg[/img] [img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6CUm8z6dODg/U-vxQUdK4XI/AAAAAAAACOI/WONe5l312I0/s1600/RNE-August-05.jpg[/img] [img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-eIUZDJaYHhc/U-vs1kxQHgI/AAAAAAAACNY/gr9_jVJzWxI/s1600/RNE-July-01.jpg[/img] [img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Yn18VxLXhKE/U-vqxbhY1oI/AAAAAAAACNA/5oiEn57zhAI/s1600/RNE-June-01.jpg[/img] [img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PtdY9qIKcWM/U-vqcyRYORI/AAAAAAAACM4/xCSE_Kx2-cc/s1600/RNE.jpg[/img] sounds like you need to go update your wikipedia m8

[QUOTE=Gentry;45726121]So what my last girlfriend was a Russian Ukrainian so we both can play the dumb anecdote game. You said I couldn't find any evidence of Separatists yelling nationalistic things. And I did within seconds so stop moving the goalposts because you can't find a functioning argument.[/QUOTE] What? He only mentioned "nationalist things" in regard of BBC article. As in "Article claims Neo-Nazi percistent among rebels, well show me those Neo-Nazi who do nationalist things."

[QUOTE=Gentry;45726104][URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity[/URL] [IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oTIY7H_Meas/U-vtf9eJMJI/AAAAAAAACNo/_Jhj666plDk/s1600/RNE-August-01.jpg[/IMG] except there are pictures of pro-russian neo-nazi organisations in Eastern Ukraine all over the internet soo[/QUOTE] While I don't doubt the presence of neo-nazis in the rebel side the example you picked is not great [quote=the link you posted], is an inactive neo-nazi political party and paramilitary organization based in Russia and formerly operating in states with Russian-speaking populations[/quote]

[QUOTE=Gentry;45726121] sounds like you need to go update your wikipedia m8[/QUOTE] Sounds like you did not read first paragraph m8 [quote]Russian National Unity (RNU) or All-Russian civic patriotic movement "Russian National Unity" (Russian: Всероссийское общественное патриотическое движение "Русское Национальное Единство"), is an inactive neo-nazi political party and paramilitary organization based in Russia and formerly operating in states with Russian-speaking populations.[1] It was founded by the ultra-nationalist Alexander Barkashov[/quote] So by picture those are mere remnants of organization or attempt to rise on hype, not proof of full activity.

[QUOTE=Gentry;45726121]So what my last girlfriend was a Russian Ukrainian so we both can play the dumb anecdote game. sounds like you need to go update your wikipedia m8[/QUOTE] Okay, you found proof! But I also know about nationalism in Donbass. [b]It's all done by British nationalists![/b] Yes, your country! And I am going to prove it. Here, a wikipedia article! [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationalism[/url] [b] WOW [/b] [img]http://ansionnachfionn.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/british-soldiers-in-afghanistan-give-the-neo-nazi-red-hand-salute-of-the-british-terror-factions-in-ireland.jpg[/img] Oh my god photos from the internet this proves everything. Jokes aside, calm down. I honestly shared the info I had with no itnention to attack you in any way.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45726140]While I don't doubt the presence of neo-nazis in the rebel side the example you picked is not great[/QUOTE] Follow the source that claims that they're inactive. It doesn't exist and was years old at time of posting anyway. [img]http://puu.sh/aXz24/d63573d7ca.png[/img] [img]http://puu.sh/aXz2L/65cd7a41ed.png[/img] you're failing to use wiki at even a basic level.

Lets not confuse nationalists and neo-nazis. I don't like either but you can be a nationalist without being a neo-nazi and you can be a neo-nazi without being a nationalist .'. neo-nazi != nationalist Lets also admit that there are some real nasty people on both sides of this conflict (who in this case have broken off and considered making their own side) The ukrainian gov were foolish to use them as allies since it has given them weapons, men and legitimacy. They probably felt they had no other choice though.