Brexit border issue requires 'imaginative solutions' - Polidicks

[URL="https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0728/893599-brexit/"]RTE News[/URL] [QUOTE]The Department of Foreign Affairs has reiterated that the Government's position on the issue of the border in Brexit negotiations is a political not a technical matter. In a statement this morning, it said avoiding a hard border after Brexit will require "flexible and imaginative solutions". The statement followed a report in the Times newspaper that the Government is pushing for the Irish Sea to become the post Brexit border with the UK. The newspaper reported that Taoiseach Leo Varadkar was unconvinced by the UK's plans to introduce a high-tech land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic after Brexit. The border between Northern Ireland and the Republic is one of the key issues that needs to be resolved by the UK and the EU before talks begin on a new trade deal. British ministers had proposed using measures such as surveillance cameras to allow free movement between the north and south. However, sources told The Times that Mr Varadkar thinks these plans could jeopardise the peace process and restrict movement between the two countries. The department, in its statement, said: "Ireland's unique concerns and priorities for the Brexit negotiations have been strongly acknowledged by both the UK and our EU partners. "The objectives of protecting the Good Friday Agreement in all its parts and the gains of the peace process, including avoiding a hard border, are shared by all sides." The DUP, needed by British Prime Minister Theresa May to prop up her minority administration in the House of Commons, has ruled out the suggestion of a sea border post Brexit. DUP chief whip Jeffrey Donaldson said: "There is no way that the DUP would go for an option that creates a border between one part of the United Kingdom and the other." He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "Dublin really needs to understand that that proposition is absurd and unconstitutional." DUP MP Ian Paisley said the reported position of the Irish Government appeared to leave two alternatives - a "very hard border" or that [B]"Ireland will wise up and leave the EU"[/B] itself.[/QUOTE] Can I just laugh about this part? OK, here goes: HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.... *breath in* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHA. Ye're the ones fecked mate. [URL="https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/move-border-to-irish-sea-after-brexit-says-coveney-tgn999l8v"]The Times[/URL] (note: this one has a registration barrier on it, so I'm just including it as a secondary source) [QUOTE]Simon Coveney is pushing for the Irish Sea to become the post-Brexit border with the UK in a move that has ratcheted up tensions with the British government. The minister for foreign affairs has told UK ministers that their idea of a “technical solution” to allow free trade to continue between the North and the South is unworkable. He has also said that Brexit risks endangering the Good Friday agreement. His position has elicited a terse response from senior British officials. “There is a new taoiseach and a new foreign minister and they’re stamping their authority,” a senior British government source told The Times.[B] “We’re being as positive as we can but it’s true to say their attitude has hardened.”[/B][/QUOTE] Wow, not liking having an Irish government willing to stand up to you on this? :o

Imaginative solutions you say? How about this! Imagine for a second like, and bear with me on this because I know it sounds crazy but, imagine if we DIDN'T leave the EU?

Ireland will just have to leave the EU with us :eng101:

[QUOTE=Bob The Knob;52515581]Ireland will just have to leave the EU with us :eng101:[/QUOTE] More like staying under the EU. Ireland benefits from it way too much than people want to credit.

[QUOTE=Bob The Knob;52515581]Ireland will just have to leave the EU with us :eng101:[/QUOTE] It's been suggested by a think tank that it is probably a better way forward for Ireland to join the UK in leaving.

"There's no border problems with Ireland if we just annex Ireland"

[QUOTE=Bob The Knob;52515581]Ireland will just have to leave the EU with us :eng101:[/QUOTE] Not this time feckers, you can't force us to do anything. [QUOTE={TFS} Rock Su;52515597]More like staying under the EU. Ireland benefits from it way too much than people want to credit.[/QUOTE] We wouldn't have motorways in Ireland without the EU. We wouldn't have the high quality agriculture we do. Hell, many of our farmers would be in even more trouble. We wouldn't be as easily able to go around Europe. We'd have a hell of a lot less investment in education, particularly our third-level educational system. Many of our indigenous businesses wouldn't be able to succeed, and we would not attract as many multi-nationals as we do. While certainly we did eventually achieve economic success by ourselves in the 60s, Ireland joining the European Community at the time was beyond critical for the social and economic development of life here, and has made us one of the best places in the world to live. None of what I have said is hyperbole. It is fact. Which is why anti-EU people make me angry. Yes, the EU must be reformed - it must become more socially conscious and supportive, more democratic and less wasteful in many wells. But as it stands it is still a force for good in Europe. I wonder how many anti-EU people (of which, thank god, there are few in Ireland) support Fianna Fail and blame Europe for what happened during the Recession - despite it being the fuckers in Fianna Fail who completely and utterly screwed us and set us up for that situation. While there were probably a certain amount of EU level decisions that didn't help, it was the Irish government during the 2000s that fucked us, and that fucked us hard. The fact Fianna Fail is still an electable party is a disgrace. It also infuriates me that this so called "Solidarity" party over here has support when their anti-EU stance would devastate ordinary people (particularly many who vote for them) and they continue to support Brexit in Northern Ireland, despite the fact they *know* it's causing immense difficulties. It upsets me as a socialist too, since I have difficulties with all left-wing parties because they all have idiotic stances (though I admit I am not loyal to any party and vote for particular politicians in my area who I know will do good).

[QUOTE=Boilrig;52515615]It's been suggested by a think tank that it is probably a better way forward for Ireland to join the UK in leaving.[/QUOTE] Cite that think tank then. Or the rationale. Ireland leaving EU is a horrible idea... and your saying so alone will not convince anyone otherwise.

[QUOTE=Boilrig;52515615]It's been suggested by a think tank that it is probably a better way forward for Ireland to join the UK in leaving.[/QUOTE] That report was *absolute bullshit*. We are one of the fastest growing economies in Ireland we stand to gain quite a lot from staying in the EU and being one of the main English speaking countries in it. It ignores how much we simply lose from not being in he EU - after all, we are a net beneficiary. Oh. And we're never relying on the fucking UK ever again. As much as you would love that. [I]Because my fucking ancestors didn't die for us to be under the thumb of Britain again.[/I] We're sad the Brits are leaving - but we're not joining them. [editline]28th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=YOMIURA;52515628]Cite that think tank then. Or the rationale. Ireland leaving EU is a horrible idea...[/QUOTE] [URL="https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2017/0703/887294-uk-report-ireland-needs-to-consider-leaving-eu/"]Here's the RTE article on it.[/URL] EDIT: btw this line is in it: "The DUP's central role in Brexit negotiations as part of its relationship with the Tories should facilitate strong cooperation across Ireland." Do... do I even need to explain [I][B]how utterly wrong that entire sentence is?[/B][/I] I would consider myself fairly moderate around NI and I only want peace for the people of NI... and I absolutely [I]despise[/I] the DUP. People here hate the DUP absolutely. EDIT2: I realise I'm probably being quite irate and angry about this, but I cannot stress how important the EU is to Ireland's future and there is no doubt in my mind it had a part to play and continues to play a part in the increasing social liberalisation of Ireland. You don't go from homosexuality being illegal to having an openly gay Taoiseach in ~25 years by tying yourself to just the UK or people's attitudes solely changing from their interactions with Irish people alone - I can tell you that.

[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52515630]That report was *absolute bullshit*. We are one of the fastest growing economies in Ireland we stand to gain quite a lot from staying in the EU and being one of the main English speaking countries in it. It ignores how much we simply lose from not being in he EU - after all, we are a net beneficiary. Oh. And we're never relying on the fucking UK ever again. As much as you would love that. [I]Because my fucking ancestors didn't die for us to be under the thumb of Britain again.[/I] We're sad the Brits are leaving - but we're not joining them. [editline]28th July 2017[/editline] [URL="https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2017/0703/887294-uk-report-ireland-needs-to-consider-leaving-eu/"]Here's the RTE article on it.[/URL] EDIT: btw this line is in it: "The DUP's central role in Brexit negotiations as part of its relationship with the Tories should facilitate strong cooperation across Ireland." Do... do I even need to explain [I][B]how utterly wrong that entire sentence is?[/B][/I] I would consider myself fairly moderate around NI and I only want peace for the people of NI... and I absolutely [I]despise[/I] the DUP. People here hate the DUP absolutely.[/QUOTE] Oh, so that conclusion was come to by same twitter spam and human contradiction that write this: [url]https://www.businesspost.ie/opinion/proper-brexit-plan-badly-needed-374706[/url] What do people get out of such things? I cannot see, as someone no knowledge of Ireland situation or politics, what there is to get by doing something like this. [QUOTE=Boilrig;52515639]It was visiting the idea that due to Ireland's more or less non-committal past to the EU, with it kind of existing on the fringe that it won't get the representation it needs as the continent will look after itself, with Ireland coming in 2nd, thus possibly a bigger loss to them as the EU throws the book at the UK, hurting Ireland massively in the process.[/QUOTE] I may not have knowledge of ireland, but I know this is garbage. ireland is much further an integrated nation to EU than UK. Its geographic position does not put it has fringe, it has the same representation as all others. It operate on assumption EU would be stupid and punish UK for leaving AND hurt another EU member, which you actively see now is not happening and never had logic in first place. EU has nothing benefit to doing that.

It was visiting the idea that due to Ireland's more or less non-committal past to the EU, with it kind of existing on the fringe that it won't get the representation it needs as the continent will look after itself, with Ireland coming in 2nd, thus possibly a bigger loss to them as the EU throws the book at the UK, hurting Ireland massively in the process.

[QUOTE=YOMIURA;52515634]Oh, so that conclusion was come to by same twitter spam and human contradiction that write this: [url]https://www.businesspost.ie/opinion/proper-brexit-plan-badly-needed-374706[/url] What do people get out of such things? I cannot see, as someone no knowledge of Ireland situation or politics, what there is to get by doing something like this.[/QUOTE] I can't read that article - need an account apparently. The funny thing is that he was the Irish ambassador to Canada and apparently " he went around the place trying to “beg, borrow and steal” visas for young Irish people who had emigrated – the flotsam and jetsam of the bust." (According to [URL="https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/former-ambassador-condemns-ireland-s-brexit-policy-1.3033774"]here.[/URL]) I don't understand though how *anyone* who's an ambassador to Canada thinks that the UK is somehow more important than: 1) The entrity of the EU 2) The United States, who are largely interested in us because of our membership of the EU 3) Other countries that do huge amounts of trade with the EU (such as Canada!!!) I can see why he retired... :/ [editline]28th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Boilrig;52515639]It was visiting the idea that due to Ireland's more or less non-committal past to the EU, with it kind of existing on the fringe that it won't get the representation it needs as the continent will look after itself, with Ireland coming in 2nd, thus possibly a bigger loss to them as the EU throws the book at the UK, hurting Ireland massively in the process.[/QUOTE] Point out where Ireland has been non-committal to the EU. That doesn't make sense. We're one of the most pro EU countries in Europe. We've fulfilled practically all of what we have been asked to do and Europe has done what they said they would do for it. We aren't on the fringe - [I]Irish issues and particularly the Northern Ireland border are one of the most important issues of Brexit as identified by the EU and is central to the negotiations![/I] How can you claim we'll come "in second?" How can you say we don't have the representation there? What makes you believe this? And while the EU throwing the book at the UK would be bad, we've been there to help moderate that opinion. But we will also refuse to stand for a deal that'll damage the Eu and would continue to give the Brits their silly membership advantages they've pissed away now.

[QUOTE=Boilrig;52515639]It was visiting the idea that due to Ireland's more or less non-committal past to the EU, with it kind of existing on the fringe that it won't get the representation it needs as the continent will look after itself, with Ireland coming in 2nd, thus possibly a bigger loss to them as the EU throws the book at the UK, hurting Ireland massively in the process.[/QUOTE] are you kidding Ireland is like, the most pro-EU country imaginable the EU has done literally nothing but good for Ireland, it essentially economically pulled ireland out of the shitheap like, this is a position completely devoid of any critical thinking, or understanding of the politics of ireland

[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52515646] Point out where Ireland has been non-committal to the EU. That doesn't make sense. We're one of the most pro EU countries in Europe. We've fulfilled practically all of what we have been asked to do and Europe has done what they said they would do for it. We aren't on the fringe - [I]Irish issues and particularly the Northern Ireland border are one of the most important issues of Brexit as identified by the EU and is central to the negotiations![/I] How can you claim we'll come "in second?" How can you say we don't have the representation there? What makes you believe this? And while the EU throwing the book at the UK would be bad, we've been there to help moderate that opinion. But we will also refuse to stand for a deal that'll damage the Eu and would continue to give the Brits their silly membership advantages they've pissed away now.[/QUOTE] It may have fulfilled practically everything required, the report points out its existence within the EU has been minimal, and also that it isn't part of any large group, like V4 etc, thus has no allies or backing from larger nations for its interests. It's a completely valid point of view. It may be pro-eu, but this is a different situation.

Oops, my response i accidentally edit instead of new post. [quote][QUOTE=Boilrig;52515639]It was visiting the idea that due to Ireland's more or less non-committal past to the EU, with it kind of existing on the fringe that it won't get the representation it needs as the continent will look after itself, with Ireland coming in 2nd, thus possibly a bigger loss to them as the EU throws the book at the UK, hurting Ireland massively in the process.[/QUOTE] I may not have knowledge of ireland, but I know this is garbage. ireland is much further an integrated nation to EU than UK. Its geographic position does not put it has fringe, it has the same representation as all others. It operate on assumption EU would be stupid and punish UK for leaving AND hurt another EU member, which you actively see now is not happening and never had logic in first place. EU has nothing benefit to doing that.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Boilrig;52515662]It may have fulfilled practically everything required, the report points out its existence within the EU has been minimal, and also that it isn't part of any large group, like V4 etc, thus has no allies or backing from larger nations for its interests. It's a completely valid point of view.[/QUOTE] We've been President of the European Council a few times. One of those times was 1989 to 1990. [URL="https://www.irishtimes.com/news/germany-will-never-forget-ireland-s-help-1.658399"]Where we played an important role in German reunification.[/URL] When certain others, including a certain Thatcher, despised that it was happening. (As a side note, as much as I hate Haughty in general, the fact he advanced this has my immense respect). We've played critical roles in many negotiations. We've changed aspects of the Nice treaty, for example. We're certainly not 'on the edge' as you are implying.

[QUOTE=Boilrig;52515662]It may have fulfilled practically everything required, the report points out its existence within the EU has been minimal, and also that it isn't part of any large group, like V4 etc, thus has no allies or backing from larger nations for its interests. It's a completely valid point of view. It may be pro-eu, but this is a different situation.[/QUOTE] It does have backing within the EU by members wish to keep their trade with Ireland alive. This is not a parliament with competing voices, and Ireland's own voice has been listened to. Alot. The only claim of this come from you and your paper, so demonstrate it is true.

cancelling their eu membership is not a policy point for any of the parties in ireland, like, maybe some independents are in favour of it but otherwise this is fucking hilarious i'm passing this article around to irish friends of mine as a joke to me, barring the disintegration of the EU, or some enormous right-wing swing in ireland, this is on the level of the "maths laws have no authority in Australia" comment

[QUOTE=YOMIURA;52515672]It does have backing within the EU by members wish to keep their trade with Ireland alive. This is not a parliament with competing voices, and Ireland's own voice has been listened to. Alot. The only claim of this come from you and your paper, so demonstrate it is true.[/QUOTE] Not sure how to can demonstrate a study is true, since that's all it is, a study, and considering it comes from a think tank, and of course, I never said I agreed with it. [URL="https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/After-Brexit-will-Ireland-be-next-to-exit-1.pdf"]Link[/URL]

[QUOTE=Boilrig;52515679]Not sure how to can demonstrate a study is true, since that's all it is, a study, and considering it comes from a think tank, and of course, I never said I agreed with it. [URL="https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/After-Brexit-will-Ireland-be-next-to-exit-1.pdf"]Link[/URL][/QUOTE] "In 2008, in another referendum, the Irish electorate rejected the Lisbon Treaty. Turnout on this occasion was 53.1%; with 53.4% voting No and 46.6% voting Yes. Then the recession hit and Ireland’s voters in 2009 were [B]threatened with Armageddon if they did not accept the Treaty.[/B] A frightened electorate did so." yup this seems like a deeply scientific study to me from a right wing think tank that [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Exchange#Funding"]hides its donors[/URL] this is not a study, it is a joke rag find an actual source/study, not an opinion piece calling itself a "report"

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;52515687] this is not a study, it is a joke rag find an actual source/study, not an opinion piece calling itself a "report"[/QUOTE] Why would I go find a source/study? From the start I said it was done by a think tank, that it was suggested by thus think tank, and that I didn't agree with it anyway, only presented part of its arguments. Go find something yourself.

[QUOTE=Boilrig;52515707]Why would I go find a source/study? From the start I said it was done by a think tank, that it was suggested by thus think tank, and that I didn't agree with it anyway, only presented part of its arguments. Go find something yourself.[/QUOTE] You initially presented the claim. Agree or not, it is you who need to provide burden of proof for us to even consider. BlackMageMari already cite information, public avaliable records blowing this stance out of water, you do not have ground to ask for anymore when you have not provided yourself.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;52515687]"In 2008, in another referendum, the Irish electorate rejected the Lisbon Treaty. Turnout on this occasion was 53.1%; with 53.4% voting No and 46.6% voting Yes. Then the recession hit and Ireland’s voters in 2009 were [B]threatened with Armageddon if they did not accept the Treaty.[/B] A frightened electorate did so." yup this seems like a deeply scientific study to me from a right wing think tank that [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Exchange#Funding"]hides its donors[/URL] this is not a study, it is a joke rag find an actual source/study, not an opinion piece calling itself a "report"[/QUOTE] They forgot to mention that the objections the Irish electorate had to the Lisbon Treaty were largely changed or removed as it was renegotiated and reintroduced. ""Threatened"" my fucking asshole.

[QUOTE=YOMIURA;52515722]You initially presented the claim. Agree or not, it is you who need to provide burden of proof for us to even consider. BlackMageMari already cite information, public avaliable records blowing this stance out of water, you do not have ground to ask for anymore when you have not provided yourself.[/QUOTE] Reread my first post before you go any further and the link has already been handed over in the post above.

[QUOTE=Boilrig;52515733]Reread my first post before you go any further and the link has already been handed over in the post above.[/QUOTE] Don't tell me to read something i already clearly have to respond to your spurious claiming, and actually respond to the points I and other users are making please. I was not able to grab your post before you edited it. That link is a paper that contradict reality as known, written by an author who has done this before, published by a closed funding think tank. That is not an acceptable source for this claim, except for making the initial claim. [QUOTE=Boilrig;52515751]There is no edit. I never claimed anything of the sort, the only thing I claimed was that it was suggested by a think tank that it is probably a better way forward to ireland to join the UK in leaving the EU. All my posts refer to the "study" itself, not my own thoughts or opinions.[/QUOTE] There is an edit. While I do not have screenshot or quote of it, during page refresh your post change. A moderator can see all edit history, so they can agree this if they say. Again, your thoughts and opinion do not matter. You are right, my wording is mitake and it is not your claim, but the paper you post does not stand, that is our point. [QUOTE=Boilrig;52515662]It's a completely valid point of view. It may be pro-eu, but this is a different situation.[/QUOTE] Your claim, while you are saying now you do not agree with paper, is that the paper is a valid view. As we are showing, it isn't.

[QUOTE=YOMIURA;52515739]Don't tell me to read something i already clearly have to respond to your spurious claiming, and actually respond to the points I and other users are making please. I was not able to grab your post before you edited it.[/QUOTE] There is no edit. I never claimed anything of the sort, the only thing I claimed was that it was suggested by a think tank that it is probably a better way forward for Ireland to join the UK in leaving the EU. All my posts refer to the "study" itself, not my own thoughts or opinions.

[QUOTE=YOMIURA;52515722]You initially presented the claim. Agree or not, it is you who need to provide burden of proof for us to even consider. BlackMageMari already cite information, public avaliable records blowing this stance out of water, you do not have ground to ask for anymore when you have not provided yourself.[/QUOTE] Actually I need to cite more information, specifically these threads I found in my thread history: [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1565966"]The hardest border: Brexit and the Northern Ireland Border[/URL] [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1562053"]EU President says Britain must settle Irish issue before Brexit trade talks[/URL] [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1553983"]Irish leader calls for united Ireland provision in Brexit deal[/URL] (this got included). I think that all proves that Boilrig's assertion that Ireland is on the edge of Europe and doesn't matter when it comes to the Brexit negotiations is false.

[QUOTE=Boilrig;52515707]Why would I go find a source/study? From the start I said it was done by a think tank, that it was suggested by thus think tank, and that I didn't agree with it anyway, only presented part of its arguments. Go find something yourself.[/QUOTE] lmfao moving the burden of proof, do you not understand how that massively undermines your argument most people here completely glance past your posts in SH now, honestly why do you bother trying to continuously post these comments which get shot down and proven wrong time and time again?

Why not just give Northern Ireland to Ireland. I realized why Northern Ireland exists and that some of the population on both sides wouldn't like it to be one country. But at this point does either side benefit from the existence of it's statehood?

[QUOTE=Aide;52516000]Why not just give Northern Ireland to Ireland. I realized why Northern Ireland exists and that some of the population on both sides wouldn't like it to be one country. But at this point does either side benefit from the existence of it's statehood?[/QUOTE] You cant "give" away a region like that because its inconvenant. I want an United Ireland but it can only happen with the consent of the Northern Irish people. Otherwise it would be illegal, morally wrong and a cause of horrific violence.