On the government shutdown front, shit just for interesting: We may see GOP moderates vote with the - Polidicks

[URL="http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/09/30/gop_moderates_may_attempt_coup_against_right_wingers.html"]GOP Moderates May Attempt Coup Against Right-Wingers[/URL] [QUOTE]Rep. Peter King, a New Yorker from a moderate-voting district, has become the nearly-official vote of Republican CR compromise. He'll bash Ted Cruz on the record -- and he'll do it for free! The bashing has helped write a Republicans-in-disarray storyline (like reporters needed any help), but it didn't mean much. Until now. After today's House Republican meeting, King claimed that there might be enough moderates -- maybe 20-25 -- ready to vote down the CR that the whole ping-pong game gets canceled, and the party has to compromise. This would happen after 6 p.m. today.[/QUOTE]

Hoping this is one more milestone in having the Republican party split into two parties so we can all hate their extremists easier.

They're calling Peter King moderate. Man, it's fucking crazy how fucked up the Republican party is when a man who openly sponsored terrorism and said that it's okay "If they're white" is considered moderate. [editline]30th September 2013[/editline] To give an idea on what he does. He openly supported, sponsored, funded, and met with IRA terrorists in Northern Ireland for over 25 years.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;42362213]They're calling Peter King moderate. Man, it's fucking crazy how fucked up the Republican party is when a man who openly sponsored terrorism and said that it's okay "If they're white" is considered moderate.[/QUOTE] You can be racist/bigoted and still be sane about how real adults get shit done. I'm waiting for someone in the House to pick up that second half, but broadly speaking...

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;42362213] To give an idea on what he does. He openly supported, sponsored, funded, and met with IRA terrorists in Northern Ireland for over 25 years.[/QUOTE] IRA "terrorists"

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42362197]Hoping this is one more milestone in having the Republican party split into two parties so we can all hate their extremists easier.[/QUOTE] So they loose every election ever? That would mean that the democrats would win everything. There wouldn't be an opposition.

[QUOTE='[sluggo];42362386']So they loose every election ever? That would mean that the democrats would win everything. There wouldn't be an opposition.[/QUOTE] This. We really don't want to ride the train to One Party Stateville. There, madness lies. (Hint: All the scum corrupting the system will just shift priority onto the new powerbrokers.)

[QUOTE='[sluggo];42362386']So they loose every election ever? That would mean that the democrats would win everything. There wouldn't be an opposition.[/QUOTE] It may be rough for a while, but a three party system is better than two.

[QUOTE=GunFox;42362463]It may be rough for a while, but a three party system is better than two.[/QUOTE] Canada says hi, where the NDP and the Liberals and the Separatists split one side of the vote, causing the Conservative Party of Canada to win a majority government and begin enacting Operation George W. Bush Round 3 with the support of only 24% of Canadian voters. (Admittedly, the 40% who didn't actually bother to vote have owed the rest an apology since 2008 for that.) [B]Edit:[/B] Imagine if Obama had become President with only 24% of eligible Americans voting for him. The racists would have attempted to [B]shell the White House[/B].

how about a fucking no party system the idea of "factions" dividing the country is fucked up beyond belief. and the fact that everyone takes it for granted and thinks it's ok is just scary how about looking at the actual issues and making a decision, instead of blindly supporting your "team?"

Revolt failed, the same unclean legislation is going back to the Senate, where it will be almost guaranteed dead on arrival.

[QUOTE=greendevil;42362514]how about a fucking no party system the idea of "factions" dividing the country is fucked up beyond belief. and the fact that everyone takes it for granted and thinks it's ok is just scary how about looking at the actual issues and making a decision, instead of blindly supporting your "team?"[/QUOTE] Because people group together as some agree on common issues.

[QUOTE='[sluggo];42362386']So they loose every election ever? That would mean that the democrats would win everything. There wouldn't be an opposition.[/QUOTE] The way I see it, once the Tea Party secedes from the GOP, it'll go back to the Dems vs GOP because the Tea Party on their own will never gain much traction.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;42362502]Canada says hi, where the NDP and the Liberals and the Separatists split one side of the vote, causing the Conservative Party of Canada to win a majority government and begin enacting Operation George W. Bush Round 3 with the support of only 24% of Canadian voters. (Admittedly, the 40% who didn't actually bother to vote have owed the rest an apology since 2008 for that.)[/QUOTE] Is your government currently at risk of literally ceasing to function? As in all federal services stop and you basically are only a country in name? No? Then it sounds like a step up. You think siding with Bush was bad? WE MADE HIM.

[QUOTE=greendevil;42362514]how about a fucking no party system the idea of "factions" dividing the country is fucked up beyond belief. and the fact that everyone takes it for granted and thinks it's ok is just scary how about looking at the actual issues and making a decision, instead of blindly supporting your "team?"[/QUOTE] There's never been a country without any parties in it. Every type of government, even autocratic ones, have their factions.

Peter King is now considered a moderate. What the fuck happened?

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42362557]The way I see it, once the Tea Party secedes from the GOP, it'll go back to the Dems vs GOP because the Tea Party on their own will never gain much traction.[/QUOTE] And the GOP can become more moderate with many of their extremists gone. The democrats can swing further left and the GOP can hang out closer to the middle. The tea party can rant and rave in the corner.

[QUOTE=GunFox;42362565]Is your government currently at risk of literally ceasing to function? As in all federal services stop and you basically are only a country in name? No? Then it sounds like a step up. You think siding with Bush was bad? WE MADE HIM.[/QUOTE] Not all services. Border Patrol will still be working. Hell, Social Security payments will still be going out. Plus, the individual states will survive for a time after tonight too. [url=http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2013/09/for_jersey_federal_shutdown_may_hit_full_force_in_two_weeks.html?cmpid=outbrain_politics_desktop]Hell, my state will be able to keep running for another two weeks at full speed[/url] and the feds will get their shit together by then.

[QUOTE=greendevil;42362514]how about a fucking no party system the idea of "factions" dividing the country is fucked up beyond belief. and the fact that everyone takes it for granted and thinks it's ok is just scary how about looking at the actual issues and making a decision, instead of blindly supporting your "team?"[/QUOTE] No, parties make complete sense, you're just not thinking about it. Different people have different ideas. Get together with people that think similarly and make your ideas happen, that's the basic line of thought behind political parties, and that's how it works in most parts of the world. The problem with the US is how incredibly polarized the two party system is, not to mention how the rest of the system works in general. Another party would probably be a good start to solve some of the polarization, at least

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42362557]The way I see it, once the Tea Party secedes from the GOP, it'll go back to the Dems vs GOP because the Tea Party on their own will never gain much traction.[/QUOTE] They'll cut off about 1/3 of the GOP vote, effectively giving the democrats complete power. Then it will be a slow evolving into socialism. They're will never be a libertarian or conservative party to fight it, at least no until the damage is done.

[QUOTE=GunFox;42362581]And the GOP can become more moderate with many of their extremists gone. The democrats can swing further left and the GOP can hang out closer to the middle. The tea party can rant and rave in the corner.[/QUOTE] Exactly this. I don't know why my first post is getting boxes.

[QUOTE=GunFox;42362581]And the GOP can become more moderate with many of their extremists gone. The democrats can swing further left and the GOP can hang out closer to the middle. The tea party can rant and rave in the corner.[/QUOTE] The democrats will swing further left, while controlling the complete majority of congress for the next 20 years.

If anyone is curious as to how the shutdown will affect government entities, here is a link to a discussion on the furlough numbers by department: [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/2013-shutdown-federal-department-impact/]link[/url]

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42362589]Not all services. Border Patrol will still be working. Hell, Social Security payments will still be going out. Plus, the individual states will survive for a time after tonight too. [url=http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2013/09/for_jersey_federal_shutdown_may_hit_full_force_in_two_weeks.html?cmpid=outbrain_politics_desktop]Hell, my state will be able to keep running for another two weeks at full speed[/url] and the feds will get their shit together by then.[/QUOTE] Oh man, we should really have shut down border patrol like two weeks ago. Can you imagine the confusion that would have caused with extremist Republicans? I'm pretty sure at least one or two of them would have literally exploded trying to decide if they should defund the ACA or concede just so they can get the border patrol back.

[QUOTE='[sluggo];42362601']They'll cut off about 1/3 of the GOP vote, effectively giving the democrats complete power. Then it will be a slow evolving into socialism. They're will never be a libertarian or conservative party to fight it, at least no until the damage is done.[/QUOTE] lmao yes the democrats are actually just waiting in the wings for conservatism in America to die so they can institute their socialist regime. not that it would happen anyway but even if Democrats somehow acquired a political monopoly their positions on social policy would shift to the left but their domestic and foreign policy would remain about the same. Democrats are a party of establishment status quo and being moderate and not this far-left marxist caricature that some would have you believe.

[QUOTE=GunFox;42362638]Oh man, we should really have shut down border patrol like two weeks ago. Can you imagine the confusion that would have caused with extremist Republicans? I'm pretty sure at least one or two of them would have literally exploded trying to decide if they should defund the ACA or concede just so they can get the border patrol back.[/QUOTE] Shutting down the border patrol would basically invite cartels into the country. It would skyrocket crime on the border, and not just drug crime. Violence would go WAY up.

[QUOTE='[sluggo];42362601']They'll cut off about 1/3 of the GOP vote, effectively giving the democrats complete power. Then it will be a slow evolving into socialism. They're will never be a libertarian or conservative party to fight it, at least no until the damage is done.[/QUOTE] What kind of socialism? All democratic countries which try to reform themselves into socialism end up hitting a brick wall eventually.

[QUOTE=GunFox;42362565]Is your government currently at risk of literally ceasing to function? As in all federal services stop and you basically are only a country in name? No? Then it sounds like a step up. You think siding with Bush was bad? WE MADE HIM.[/QUOTE] No, but frankly we kind of wish it was, because it'd at least stop Harper from continuing to gut Canada's science and environment funding and protections, sell off our natural resources for short-term economic gain so his party looks like the good guys and his cronies can continue to ride the success train even after he hits his term limit as PM, burn a considerable amount of the diplomatic goodwill Canada has, and a number of other things I don't feel like ranting about because I don't want to derail the thread. We're not at the brink of literal shutdown, and frankly we'd like to avoid having to follow you guys down into the hole, but we're no less dysfunctional. What I'm saying is, the solution to the problems of a two-party system is not to make it a three-party system or adjust that number up or down in other combinations. I don't know what the full solution is, because federal politics in the most powerful nation in the world are complicated and so the solution is likely to be likewise complicated and nuanced, and I'm no expert. But the solution isn't just to split the vote among more parties. Look at Ma Bell and the Baby Bells. They've reformed back into huge amorphous near-monopolies again. I'm looking at you, Verizon and AT&T. We systematically go for the optimal strategy, and that means merging with allies and eliminating competitors.

[QUOTE='[sluggo];42362601']They'll cut off about 1/3 of the GOP vote, effectively giving the democrats complete power. Then it will be a slow evolving into socialism. They're will never be a libertarian or conservative party to fight it, at least no until the damage is done.[/QUOTE] The Democrats have near complete power already if it weren't for the radicals in the GOP in the House. I'm no fan of the Democrats, but I hardly see them having a large control of the government for a short time as a seriously bad thing. It's been shown in quite a few articles throughout the year that the Democrats have a better chance against a Tea Party candidate than a moderate Republican in many places. So instead of Democrats vs Tea Party, it'll be Democrats vs. GOP vs. Tea Party in which I'm sure the GOP will do much better in.

[QUOTE='[sluggo];42362649']Shutting down the border patrol would basically invite cartels into the country. It would skyrocket crime on the border, and not just drug crime. Violence would go WAY up.[/QUOTE] Yeah, it probably would. But the risk of one of the most well armed nations in the world going tits up and actually dissolving is a MASSIVE fucking risk. We are still fighting nations armed with soviet tech. How many years of fighting third world countries with black market former American tech do you think we will have to put up with if the country fails?