• Top IDF Commander; Deputy Chief of Staff comes under fire after comparing Israel to pre-war Nazi Ger
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[URL="http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.718505"]http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.718505 [/URL] (If paywalled above: [URL]http://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-holocaust-idUSKCN0XW0VW[/URL]) [thumb]http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.709545.1462629382!/image/2349077637.jpg_gen/derivatives/headline_857x482/2349077637.jpg[/thumb] [quote][B]Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu harshly criticized IDF Deputy Chief of Staff Maj. Gen. Yair Golan [/B]at the beginning of Sunday's cabinet meeting, noting that his remarks on the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day were outrageous, unfounded and that they wronged Israeli society. Netanyahu made his remarks against the background of Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon's backing of Golan and his speech. [B]"The comparison that came up from the deputy chief of staff's comments on the processes that characterized Nazi Germany 80 years ago is outrageous," Netanyahu said[/B]. "These are fundamentally unfounded things. They shouldn’t be said at any time, and especially not at the time at which they were said. They wrong Israeli society and cheapen the Holocaust. The deputy chief of staff is an officer with many accomplishments, but his remarks on this topic were completely wrong and are unacceptable to me." Netanyahu noted that Israel is a "historical wonder" and that everyone is proud of its achievements and of the IDF. "A lot of things were said about Israel in recent days," Netanyahu said. "There is no country without signs of intolerance and of violence, but Israeli democracy is strong. It denounces such signs and takes care of them by means of the law and other measures." Zionist Union MK Merav Michaeli criticized Netanyahu's comments. [B] "Someone [Netanyahu] who only recently abolished Hitler's responsibility [to blame the Arabs instead for the holocaust] for the idea to annihilate the Jews would do better not to join the chorus of condemnations against someone who spoke from his heart of the inflammatory discourse in the country, which the prime minister is greatly responsible for himself," she said. Michaeli was referring to Netanyahu's statement that the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was the one who planted the idea of the extermination of European Jewry in Adolf Hitler's mind. "Netanyahu has perfected that art of using the memory of the Holocaust for political needs and now doesn’t miss any opportunity to gain political capital from the delegitimization of senior army officials," she added. [/B] [/quote] His position is one step below the overall head of the IDF. People who were in his rank are presumed to eventually become the head of the entire IDF. Top ministers have already called for his resignation though, so don't even expect it (a promotion to IDF head). [quote]His remarks attest mainly to a lack of understanding, ignorance, and a cheapening of the Holocaust," Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked of the Jewish Home party told Channel 10 TV. "On such a day,[U][B]I wouldn't even want to quote what he said[/B][/U]." Education Minister Naftali Bennett, the party's leader, said Golan must "rectify" his mistake before "God forbid, our troops are likened to Nazis, with a kosher stamp from on high".[/quote] The remarks the commander made below—were so bad— that the top Israeli ministers were too scared to quote it. "I don't even want to quote what he said" - Israeli Justice Minister [quote]Wearing his red paratroop beret, Golan said at the gathering to honor the six million Jews killed by Nazi Germany that the annual remembrance day should also lead Israelis to deep soul-searching about "how we, here and now, treat the stranger". "[B]If there's something that frightens me about Holocaust remembrance it's the recognition of the revolting processes that occurred in Europe in general, and particularly in Germany, back then – 70, 80 and 90 years ago – and finding signs of them here among us today in 2016[/B]," he said.[/quote] Yikes. Truth is so prohibited in Israel that their ministers don't even "want to quote it" His ministers are calling for his resignation, so he issued a backtrack that was welcomed by Netanyahu. You should already know that only Israel is allowed to exploit the suffering of the Holocaust for their political gains internationally. You can't bring up the memory of the Holocaust to criticize Israel.
The Jewish Home party is seriously one of the biggest blights on Israeli politics in recent history, along with Netanyahu's almost criminal way of inciting fear in the population in order to keep his seat as prime minister. We finally get someone who speaks a bit of truth and he gets the "traitor" treatment from those same people. And while I do disagree with an exact comparison to nazi Germany I have to agree that racism/intolerance in the Israeli people is becoming more vocal and violent all thanks to our government legitimizing fear and separation.
[QUOTE][b]"Netanyahu has perfected that art of using the memory of the Holocaust for political needs and now doesn’t miss any opportunity to gain political capital from the delegitimization of senior army officials," she added.[/b][/QUOTE] I think this speaks for something.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50286038]If he quoted what he said some people would rightfully perceive them as ordinary comments. "Trust me, what he said was outrageous, disgusting terrible. Take my word for it." Demagogy 101:science101:[/QUOTE] No, demagogy is what Starpluck did with this story. Yair Golan made a powerful statement, but pretty much all of it is in the quote in the OP: [QUOTE]"If there's something that frightens me about Holocaust remembrance it's the recognition of the revolting processes that occurred in Europe in general, and particularly in Germany, back then – 70, 80 and 90 years ago – and finding signs of them here among us today in 2016,"[/QUOTE] Despite what Starpluck would like to think, that's not "comparing Israel's Palestinan treatment to pre-war Nazi Germany". In fact, Golan made it very clear after the fact that he was not speaking about the IDF specifically. What Golan was talking about is more general issues in Israeli society right now: racism, xenophobia, rabid nationalism, intolerance to differing opinions and to criticism. All of these of course tie into the ongoing occupation and Israeli opinions of it, but also to the treatment of refugees and work immigrants, human rights groups and even just people with left leaning political opinions. And yes, this is absolutely a scathing criticism of the current government and the people in it like Netanyahu and Regev who thrive on this. And of course they hate it. But the fact is this is that this speech being reported on everywhere, debated everywhere and clearly neither Golan nor his words are being silenced, nor is he being forced to resign or apologize. Just look at today's Hebrew edition of Ynet, Israel's largest news website, where the current most popular stories are almost all about this: [URL="http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4801156,00.html"]The wounded officer who became the hero of the second Lebanon war says Golan is right[/URL]. [URL="http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4800905,00.html"]Golan's mother: my son is right[/URL] [URL="http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4800288,00.html"]Minister Avi Gabai: racism here is similar to Germany in the 20s and 30s[/URL] [URL="http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4799607,00.html"][B]Minister of Defense Yaalon[/B]: Golan's words were taken out of context for political reasons[/URL] That last one is about how Yaalon is completely backing up Golan, saying a commander's role is not only to lead into battle but also to serve as a moral compass. Here's a non-Hebrew source for the last one: [URL="http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Yaalon-backs-deputy-IDF-chief-against-accusations-he-compared-Israel-to-Nazis-453222"]Ya'alon backs deputy IDF chief against accusations he compared Israel to Nazis[/URL]
Starpluck doesn't care about the truth, he just despises Israel and Jews, ScumBunny.
Those who bring attention to uncomfortable truths are some of the most selfless individuals on the planet. This will likely destroy his credibility in Israel, but he still did it.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50286172]Starpluck doesn't care about the truth, he just despises Israel and Jews, ScumBunny.[/QUOTE] FlashMarsh doesn't care about the truth, he just blindly defends Israel and lumps attacks on it in with attacks on Jews, FlashMarsh.
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;50286204]FlashMarsh doesn't care about the truth, he just blindly defends Israel and lumps attacks on it in with attacks on Jews, FlashMarsh.[/QUOTE] I post stuff other than about how much I hate Israel, which is a start.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50286172]Starpluck doesn't care about the truth, he just despises Israel and Jews, ScumBunny.[/QUOTE] While there's a lot we disagree on, Starpluck is a perfectly reasonable person and certainly not a racist.
In your array of handpicked Hebrew-only sources in which no one will care to authenticate— you forgot one thing— what you said he didn't do is what the Israeli media is reporting he exactly did do. Here I will do the same thing, but in English this time: [QUOTE=ScumBunny;50286095]Despite what Starpluck would like to think, that's not [B]"comparing Israel's Palestinan treatment to pre-war Nazi Germany[/B]".[/QUOTE] Israel Media (English) — [URL="http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-upbraids-idf-general-for-outrageous-shoah-comparison/"]The Times of Israel[/URL]: "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday rejected an [B]IDF general’s controversial remarks comparing Israel to pre-war Nazi Germany[/B] on Holocaust Remembrance Day." Oh, that's odd. An Israeli source in English said [I]exactly what you said wasn't the case.[/I] That he compared Israel to pre-war Nazi Germany. It actually used the highly-specific term "pre-war Nazi Germany" and "comparing Israel to it" It is almost as if they prepared that article in advance just to spite you and refute your claim I made it up out of thin air. Or more likely instead, it wasn't "made up" by me and his remarks were reported exactly the way Israeli media reported it as. American media: [URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/05/08/the-israeli-general-who-compared-the-jewish-state-to-nazi-era-germany/"]The Israeli general who compared the Jewish State to Nazi-era Germany[/URL]. Israeli Media:[URL="http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-upbraids-idf-general-for-outrageous-shoah-comparison/"] Netanyahu upbraids top general for ‘outrageous’ Holocaust comparison[/URL] [quote]In fact, Golan made it very clear after the fact that he was not speaking about the IDF specifically.[/quote] Yes Golan backtracked his remarks, but only after fierce criticism by the Israeli Prime Minister and ministers within the state of Israel. It wasn't by an MP or by an ordinary minister but the Prime Minister of Israel. The individual responsible for choosing and appointing personnel in his cabinet that will elect the next IDF Chief. The person he answers too rebuked him, so he backtracked it and made try to mitigate his own remarks in the fire of criticism. [quote]But the fact is this is that this speech being reported on everywhere, debated everywhere and clearly neither Golan nor his words are being silenced, [/quote] It having a lot of international coverage says nothing about the implicit attempt to silence him [quote]nor is he being forced to resign or apologize.[/quote] If you read the article in the OP, you will find that a [URL="http://tpsnews.co.il/news/miri-regev-deputy-chief-of-staff-yair-golan-should-resign/"]Minister of two seperate entities is calling for his resignation[/URL]. [quote]Just look at today's Hebrew edition of Ynet, Israel's largest news website, where the current most popular stories are almost all about this: [URL="http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4801156,00.html"]The wounded officer who became the hero of the second Lebanon war says Golan is right[/URL]. [URL="http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4800905,00.html"]Golan's mother: my son is right[/URL] [URL="http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4800288,00.html"]Minister Avi Gabai: racism here is similar to Germany in the 20s and 30s[/URL] [URL="http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Yaalon-backs-deputy-IDF-chief-against-accusations-he-compared-Israel-to-Nazis-453222"]Ya'alon backs deputy IDF chief against accusations he compared Israel to Nazis[/URL] [URL="http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4799607,00.html"][B]Minister of Defense Yaalon[/B]: Golan's words were taken out of context for political reasons[/URL] That last one is about how Yaalon is completely backing up Golan, saying a commander's role is not only to lead into battle but also to serve as a moral compass. [/quote] I am sorry but no one is going to verify your Hebrew-only sources in the same way you don't expect myself or others to post Arabic sources on the Israeli-Palestinian issue. But to bring up his own mom as some sort of "evidence" that he's in the all-clear means nothing. His mother would be the first to say he is right. And for every two ministers you name, I can easily name four ministers off the top of my head who are bashing him in conjunction with the Prime Minister of Israel. One of which have called for his resignation in the OP. — I am sorry, but what's your main point? That he wasn't comparing Israel to the preliminary processes that occurred in pre-war Nazi Germany's society? Because if so, I have too many sources to post from majority-Israeli media sources that say the opposite and that he was. But I am not going to just pile and spam below (and in a foreign language). There are too many to post and I am not going to try to score points that way. [thumb]http://i.imgur.com/m4eEV2r.png[/thumb] So what I am going to ask you to do instead is Google: "[URL="https://www.google.com/search?q=IDF+General+Nazi+Germany&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8"]IDF General Nazi Germany[/URL]" — Israeli media will dominate the results and corroborate what I said. Because if I decided to post every link that verifies what I said, my post would be inappropriately lengthy; it would run pages and be counterintuitive to the spirit of the debate. [editline]9th May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50286212]I post stuff other than about how much I hate Israel, which is a start.[/QUOTE] You post stuff about how much you hate the Muslims instead, that is a big difference. The topic of Jews never even appear in my debates unless someone like you brings it up. I criticize the Israeli state and their policies You criticize Muslims. There is a difference between the two.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50286271]In your array of handpicked Hebrew-only sources in which no one will care to authenticate— you forgot one thing— what you said he didn't do is what the Israeli media is reporting he exactly did do. Here I will do the same thing, but in English this time: Israel Media (English) — [URL="http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-upbraids-idf-general-for-outrageous-shoah-comparison/"]The Times of Israel[/URL]: "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday rejected an [B]IDF general’s controversial remarks comparing Israel to pre-war Nazi Germany[/B] on Holocaust Remembrance Day." Oh, that's odd. An Israeli source in English said [I]exactly what you said wasn't the case.[/I] That he compared Israel to pre-war Nazi Germany. It actually used the highly-specific term "pre-war Nazi Germany" and "comparing Israel to it" It is almost as if they prepared that article in advance just to spite you and refute your claim I made it up out of thin air. Or more likely instead, it wasn't "made up" by me and his remarks were reported exactly the way Israeli media reported it as. American media: [URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/05/08/the-israeli-general-who-compared-the-jewish-state-to-nazi-era-germany/"]The Israeli general who compared the Jewish State to Nazi-era Germany[/URL]. Israeli Media:[URL="http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-upbraids-idf-general-for-outrageous-shoah-comparison/"] Netanyahu upbraids top general for ‘outrageous’ Holocaust comparison[/URL] Yes Golan backtracked his remarks, but only after fierce criticism by the Israeli Prime Minister and ministers within the state of Israel. It wasn't by an MP or by an ordinary minister but the Prime Minister of Israel. The individual responsible for choosing and appointing personnel in his cabinet that will elect the next IDF Chief. The person he answers too rebuked him, so he backtracked it and made try to mitigate his own remarks in the fire of criticism. It having a lot of international coverage says nothing about the implicit attempt to silence him If you read the article in the OP, you will find that a Minister is calling for his resignation. I am sorry but no one is going to verify your Hebrew-only sources in the same way you don't expect myself or others to post Arabic sources on the Israeli-Palestinian issue. But to bring up his own mom as some sort of "evidence" that he's in the all-clear means nothing. His mother would be the first to say he is right. And for every two ministers you name, I can easily name four ministers off the top of my headwho are bashing him in conjunction with the Prime Minister of Israel. One of which have called for his resignation in the OP. I am sorry, but what's your main point? That he wasn't comparing Israel to the processes that occured pre-war Nazi Germany's society? Because if so, have too many sources to post from majority-Israeli media sources that say the opposite and that he was. But I am not going to just pile and spam below (and in a foreign language) thinking they were even relevant. There are too many to post and I am not going to try to score points that way. [thumb]http://i.imgur.com/m4eEV2r.png[/thumb] So what I am going to ask you to do instead is Google: "IDF General Nazi Germany" — Israeli media will dominate the results and corroborate what I said. Because if I decided to post every link that verifies what I said, my post would be inappropriately lengthy; it would run pages. [editline]9th May 2016[/editline] Right, you post stuff about how much you hate the Muslims instead, that is a big difference. The topic of Jews never even appear in my debates unless someone like you brings it up. I criticize the Israeli state and their policies You criticize Muslims. There is a big difference between the two, I agree.[/QUOTE] Sigh. You're misinterpreting again. 1. Yes, he compared Israeli society to German society prior to the rise of Nazism. He did not compare Israel's treatment of the Palestinians to Nazi Germany which is what you claimed in the title. That would make no sense- in the early 20s and 30s Germany wasn't violently stomping its way around Europe occupying and oppressing. It was going through a social processes like the rise of nationalism and antisemitism following the defeat in WWI which Hitler exploited to rise to power. And I'm sure you know this. 2. Fucking use google translate if you don't trust me on these sources. 3. Of course Netanyahu and his cohorts are tying to distort this into Golan comparing Israel to Nazi germany. Like you, they're taking this out of context for their own political goals. Which is exactly what Yaalon (the Minister of Defense and the only one with the authority to fire him) said. 4. There's an English source for the last article. The one about Yaalon. It's from Haaretz. We're cool with Haaretz, right? 5. It doesn't matter who is calling for him to be fired. There are ministers and PMs calling for his head. There are ministers and PM supporting him. That's called "democracy". The only one who can fire him is the Minister of Defense, who is 100 per cent backing him. Relax.
[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;50286233]Having lived in Qatar, I have a vague idea what would happen if you said anything with a political message even remotely close to this in public air in Bahrain. Seems that Starpluck is going all-out and seeing only negativity in Israel as a whole. Yet I see absolutely no criticism of Bahrain by Starpluck. Israel does a lot of heinous shit but you surely can't sit in Bahrain, of all places, and pretend Israel is some fascist country where free speech, stating the truth, your opinions, or others' opinions gets you taken behind the barn. [URL]https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2015/bahrain[/URL] [URL]https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/26/bahrain-free-activists-facing-free-speech-charges[/URL] [URL]https://www.hrw.org/middle-east/n-africa/bahrain[/URL] [URL]https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/bahrain/report-bahrain/[/URL][/QUOTE] You lived in Qatar. I live in Bahrain [until July]. I am not sure what your point is. That would be like if I tried to follow you into every thread and say "What about Qatar PrusseLusken?? How can you criticize video games when you've lived in Qatar before PrusseLusken??" If you knew the slightest thing about me, you would know that I routinely posted articles criticizing the Bahraini security forces when the [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahraini_uprising_of_2011"]Bahraini uprising[/URL] took place. Everyone remembers those threads. I have criticized Bahrain more than you've even mentioned Qatar in your posts. Your logic holds that therefore you support the Qatari government; your logic actually makes no sense. [editline]9th May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=ScumBunny;50286325]1. Yes, he compared Israeli society to German society prior to the rise of Nazism. He did not compare Israel's treatment of the Palestinians to Nazi Germany which is what you claimed in the title.[/QUOTE] Perhaps and I can agree that he didn't mention Palestinians explicitly. But when someone is drawing parallels to Nazi Germany's society to Israel's society, nonetheless coming from an IDF chief, you have to be playing dumb and purposely dance around the topic if you think he's not implicitly referring to the Palestinians. Nonetheless, I have removed the Palestinian mention from the thread title. [quote]That would make no sense- in the early 20s and 30s Germany wasn't violently stomping its way around Europe occupying and oppressing. It was going through a social processes like the rise of nationalism and antisemitism following the defeat in WWI which Hitler exploited to rise to power. And I'm sure you know this.[/quote] So he's saying that Israel's society draws parallels to the processes and catalysts that occurred in Nazi Germany that allowed the rise of Hitler. That is a damning comparison and I don't see how you can mitigate it. [quote]2. Fucking use google translate if you don't trust me on these sources. 3. Of course Netanyahu and his cohorts are tying to distort this into Golan comparing Israel to Nazi germany. Like you, they're taking this out of context for their own political goals. Which is exactly what Yaalon (the Minister of Defense and the only one with the authority to fire him) said. 4. There's an English source for the last article. The one about Yaalon. It's from Haaretz. We're cool with Haaretz, right?[/quote] The one you keep bringing up who's defending him (Yaalon) is not saying even remotely saying that the IDF Commander is "correct" nor is he defending him in the way you try to make it appear he is. He is just trying to mitigate the Nazi Germany comparisons by saying that that the IDF Commander is a "victim" of a "political attack" on the IDF by an international anti-Israel conspiracy. Here is what he said: [quote]"The attacks on him due to intentional, distorted interpretations of something he said yesterday, are an [B]additional attempt of a worrisome campaign to inflict political damage on the IDF[/B] [URL]http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.718043[/URL][/quote] He is not saying that the Nazi Germany comparison is valid and that he's right. He is saying that this is all just another international conspiracy (an accusation that Israel likes to employ [I]a lot[/I]) to inflict political damage on the Israeli Defense Forces. Do you know why Yaalon decided to mitigate his remarks and play this off as some international attack on the IDF? He knows very well that if he spins the issue into one where people are using this as an excuse to attack the IDF instead, the significance of the Nazi Germany comparison begins to evaporate that was made by a top IDF chief. It no longer looks like the second-highest ranking member of the IDF is accusing Israel of bearing resemblance to pre-war Nazi Germany. But when Netanyahu attacks the IDF Commander for the Nazi Germany comparison, he is implicitly acknowledging that the second-highest ranking member of the IDF just compared Israel to pre-war Nazi Germany and that it's creating a divide in Israel. It took Netanyahu several days to realize this until he was able to welcome the IDF Commander's retraction.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50286331]You lived in Qatar. I live in Bahrain [until July]. I am not sure what your point is. That would be like if I tried to follow you into every thread and say "What about Qatar PrusseLusken?? How can you criticize video games when you've lived in Qatar before PrusseLusken??" If you knew the slightest thing about me, you would know that I routinely posted articles criticizing the Bahraini security forces when the [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahraini_uprising_of_2011"]Bahraini uprising[/URL] took place. Everyone remembers those threads. I have criticized Bahrain more than you've even mentioned Qatar in your posts. Your logic holds that therefore you support the Qatari government; your logic actually makes no sense. [editline]9th May 2016[/editline] Perhaps and I can agree that he didn't mention Palestinians explicitly. But when someone is drawing parallels to Nazi Germany's society to Israel's society, nonetheless coming from an IDF chief, you have to be playing dumb and purposely dance around the topic if you think he's not implicitly referring to the Palestinians. Nonetheless, I have removed the Palestinian mention from the thread title. So he's saying that Israel's society draws parallels to the processes and catalysts that occurred in Nazi Germany that allowed the rise of Hitler. That is a damning comparison and I don't see how you can mitigate it. The one you keep bringing up who's defending him (Yaalon) is not saying even remotely saying that the IDF Commander is "correct" nor is he defending him in the way you try to make it appear he is. He is just trying to mitigate the Nazi Germany comparisons by saying that that the IDF Commander is a "victim" of a "political attack" on the IDF by an international anti-Israel conspiracy. Here is what he said: He is not saying that the Nazi Germany comparison is valid and that he's right. He is saying that this is all just another international conspiracy (an accusation that Israel likes to employ [I]a lot[/I]) to inflict political damage on the Israeli Defense Forces.[/QUOTE] No, he's referring to the attack on the IDF on Bibi and his cohorts. This is a campaign he was himself the target of very recently when he dared suggest IDF soldiers should try and avoid executing kid stabbers. Look it up. Meanwhile, I went ahead and google translated Ynet for you. Take a look: [t]http://i.imgur.com/jnIMGrz.jpg?1[/t]
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;50286380]No, he's referring to the attack on the IDF on Bibi and his cohorts. This is a campaign he was himself the target of very recently when he dared suggest IDF soldiers should try and avoid executing kid stabbers. Look it up. Meanwhile, I went ahead and google translated Ynet for you. Take a look: [t]http://i.imgur.com/jnIMGrz.jpg?1[/t][/QUOTE] The IDF Commander's mother and another Israeli solider is defending the IDF Commander's remarks. I already knew that. The main topic, and my point was: "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu harshly criticized IDF Deputy Chief of Staff Maj. Gen. Yair Golan at the beginning of Sunday's cabinet meeting, noting that his remarks on the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day were outrageous, unfounded and that they wronged Israeli society." I know his own mom supports him—as she should— but the Prime Minister of Israel's "harsh" attacks over it and is why I posted the thread. I know that his mom still agrees with him, but the man who Israel chose to be in-office for over 20 years now, the leader and purported representative of the Israeli (assumed to be by the fact that Israelis keep picking him to lead the country, despite what you may hold how Israel's voting and elections work) is the one who's attacking the IDF Chief.
Where have I ever obsessed about 'Muslims', unless you count discussing terrorism and its causes as 'obsessing about Muslims'? Unless you count that clearly joke title you banned me for. Anyway, so you don't deny that you despise Israel then, the only Jewish state, and obsess over it disproportionately to its problems?
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50286400]The IDF Commander's mother and another Israeli solider is defending the IDF Commander's remarks. I already knew that. The main topic, and my point was: "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu harshly criticized IDF Deputy Chief of Staff Maj. Gen. Yair Golan at the beginning of Sunday's cabinet meeting, noting that his remarks on the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day were outrageous, unfounded and that they wronged Israeli society." I know his own mom supports him—as she should— but the Prime Minister of Israel's "harsh" attacks over it and is why I posted the thread.[/QUOTE] I think we agree on the facts of the matter, as well as most of the interpretations of what this means. We disagreed on whether or not this statement was specifically about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, but I think we can agree this wasn't exactly the case. We apparently now also agree that this [B]*is*[/B] being covered in Israeli media, as well as being discussed by everyone in the political system, meaning the speech wasn't and isn't silenced. The mere fact that there exist public debate on this also proves, I think, that the entirety of Israeli public isn't completely in Bibi's camp in this debate. So what's left? We both agree Bibi and his pals did their best to try and crush this opinion, [URL="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4789015,00.html"]just as they tried before[/URL] with previous issues not serving their narrative. It didn't work then, and it still isn't working. We're arguing over this, which means there's still room for opposing opinions. No one is being silenced. Finally, and this may require a clarification simply because you're less familiar with how the political system in Israel works- there are plenty of people in the government, the Knesset and high ranking government positions who disagree with Netanyahu. Plenty he did not want in the role and would have loved to replace. The president Reuven Rivlin, for one, the head of the Bank of Israel Dr. Karnit Flug, and most of the judges in the Supreme Court. There are of course plenty of people in the higher echelons of all defense institutes, especially the IDF, who are not in Netanyahu's camp. These are all veteran career soldiers, and they don't switch around their political views to match each current Prime Minister and Minister of Defense. In any case only the Minister of Defense can appoint the Chief of Staff. That person is currently Yaalon, and he too is currently very much in Natanyahu's shit list. But regardless, no government so far has appointed a Chief of Staff based solely on his political alignment. These guys get appointed based mostly on merit and internal IDF politics, I think. The Israeli public likes its IDF apolitical, which is why people like the Minister of Defense (formerly the Chief of Staff), the current Chief of Staff and now his second in command are fighting so hard to keep Netanyahu's bloodthirsty bullshit out of the military, which is exactly why there's an orchestrated political campaign by some in the government to discredit them. [editline]9th May 2016[/editline] Do you see that one title I circled in the Ynet popular articles box? "Political survival at the expense of the IDF"? That's exactly what you're seeing here.
[quote]"If there's something that frightens me about Holocaust remembrance it's the recognition of the revolting processes that occurred in Europe in general, and particularly in Germany, back then – 70, 80 and 90 years ago – and finding signs of them here among us today in 2016," he said.[/quote] That is such a vague statement to have such an uproar about.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50286618]Why does Israel being the only Jewish state matter? In an era of secular governments being the norm, why does the religion of a state matter? Why are you so obsessed to prove Starpluck is an antisemite by going to stretches like this? Israel is a controversial state with a controversial government doing controversial acts, and Starpluck has his opinions on this controversy. Is it antisemitic to hold some opinions on this matter, while it is not to hold the other?[/QUOTE] Pretty sure he means ethnically Jewish
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;50287396]Pretty sure he means ethnically Jewish[/QUOTE] What you say is true to some respect, while there are some extremely backward (racist) laws in Israel that cater to Judaism or Jews only, they are only a few and not as often to find when compared to other traditional religious and theocratic states. [URL="http://www.haaretz.com/palestinians-may-soon-have-to-swear-loyalty-to-jewish-state-1.302229"]But there is still this: http://www.haaretz.com/palestinians-may-soon-have-to-swear-loyalty-to-jewish-state-1.302229[/URL] And numerous Israeli Supreme Court decisions affirming "Jew-only" houses, i.e. neighborhoods can only be sold to Jews to maintain Jewish ethnic purity. Also— ignoring the what I said above, the point is it doesn't matter if they are the only 'Jewish' state in the world or not. I trust no one here would raise issue if we criticize the only Persian State on the world? [editline]9th May 2016[/editline] And don't say "Iran's Middle Eastern" not a single nation in the Middle East likes or welcomes Iranians. In Bahrain for example, Iranians are often oppressed here.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;50287396]Pretty sure he means ethnically Jewish[/QUOTE] How is it even possible to be ethnically jewish? Unless the current jewish population as a whole is being considered its own ethnic group, which then I would say is rubbish because the portion non Haredi is composed from countries all over the world, and that's on the horribly wrong assumption that Haredis are composed of the older jewish population and aren't actually composed of all non palestinian ethnic groups. Or maybe I'm just horribly misinformed.
[QUOTE=Aircraft;50287569]How is it even possible to be ethnically jewish? Unless the current jewish population as a whole is being considered its own ethnic group, which then I would say is rubbish because the portion non Haredi is composed from countries all over the world, and that's on the horribly wrong assumption that Haredis are composed of the older jewish population and aren't actually composed of all non palestinian ethnic groups. Or maybe I'm just horribly misinformed.[/QUOTE] You are. [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews#Who_is_a_Jew.3F"]Jews[/URL] are an ethnic group as well as a members of the same religion. That's why antisemitism is a form of racism. The Holocaust, for example, was an [B]ethnic[/B] cleansing of European Jews. The Nazis did not care if the Jews they were exterminating were observing or secular. But beyond racism, even Jews of different nationalities and ancestry have [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews#Genetic_studies"]common genetic markers[/URL], with the exception of a few specific Jewish communities (who are probably later converts to the religion).
There were actually some former Jews who were let out of the concentration camps in Auschwitz last-minute after renouncing their faith to become atheist.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50287818]There were actually some former Jews who were let out of the concentration camps in Auschwitz last-minute after renouncing their faith to become atheist.[/QUOTE] I never heard that story. Can you find any references?
My ass. My point is that it is very strange that people act so flabbergasted and get very riled up when someone mentions the notion of non-religious but ethnic Jewry in 2016. Atheist Jews are so common and widespread.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50287818]There were actually some former Jews who were let out of the concentration camps in Auschwitz last-minute after renouncing their faith to become atheist.[/QUOTE] bullshit, Nazis tracked down and detained anyone who even had a single Jewish grandparent, no matter if they were religious or not. Jews are a distinct ethnic group. No one is getting riled up other than you.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50287850]My ass. My point is that it is very strange that people act so flabbergasted and get very riled up when someone mentions the notion of ethnic Jewry.[/QUOTE] My google-fu suggests you may mis-remember a fact about Jehovah's Witnesses, who were apparently the only people who were "voluntary" prisoners of concentration camps. [QUOTE]Jehovah's Witnesses were the only "voluntary victims" of Nazism. They refused to register in the Wehrmacht or to swear allegiance to the state. The words "Heil Hitler" never passed their lips. Their allegiance was to Jehovah and not to the state. [B]Jehovah's Witnesses could be freed from concentration camps if they signed a simple document renouncing their faith and swearing to cease their religious activities. Few succumbed to this temptation[/B], even at the risk of endless internment and conditions that might lead to death. [/QUOTE] From [URL="https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/whatarecamps.html"]here[/URL].
That is insane. I never knew that. [editline]9th May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Svinnik;50287862]bullshit, Nazis tracked down and detained anyone who even had a single Jewish grandparent, no matter if they were religious or not. Jews are a distinct ethnic group. No one is getting riled up other than you.[/QUOTE] If you weren't so unabashedly pro-Israeli you would've understood the meaning of my post. [editline]9th May 2016[/editline] You go on the defensive on every post I make despite it's stance, hop off my dick for once.
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;50286204]FlashMarsh doesn't care about the truth, he just blindly defends Israel and lumps attacks on it in with attacks on Jews, FlashMarsh.[/QUOTE] Except there's no evidence whatsoever to support such an allegation against him. Against Starpluck on the other hand... mountains. Same with Lamar. You're not being clever by trying to turn the tables like this; people that actually pay attention to what's posted and what's said on this forum know better than that. [editline]9th May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Svinnik;50287862]bullshit, Nazis tracked down and detained anyone who even had a single Jewish grandparent, no matter if they were religious or not. Jews are a distinct ethnic group. No one is getting riled up other than you.[/QUOTE] Svinnik, why are you so defensive and unabashedly pro-Israeli? That's what you're (apparently) being by making posts like this. How dare you post facts and make sensible points.:v:
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50286400]The main topic, and my point was: "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu harshly criticized IDF Deputy Chief of Staff Maj. Gen. Yair Golan at the beginning of Sunday's cabinet meeting, noting that his remarks on the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day were outrageous, unfounded and that they wronged Israeli society." [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Starpluck;50286002]Yikes. Truth is so prohibited in Israel that their ministers don't even "want to quote it" His ministers are calling for his resignation, so he issued a backtrack that was welcomed by Netanyahu. You should already know that only Israel is allowed to exploit the suffering of the Holocaust for their political gains internationally. You can't bring up the memory of the Holocaust to criticize Israel.[/QUOTE] I think there's a pretty big difference between 'Netanyahu criticizes statements taken out of context' and 'Israel is a thought police state where the truth is prohibited and criticizing Israel is disallowed'.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50289071]So can we start with this mountain of evidence on how Starpluck despises [b]Israel[/b]?[/QUOTE] Sure thing (also, FTFY): [url]https://facepunch.com/search.php?searchid=7171333[/url] [QUOTE=Starpluck;49902746][URL="http://www.timesofisrael.com/biden-israel-cannot-defeat-terror-with-military-force/"]Times of Israel[/URL] Indeed, Biden brings an interesting point. As the stabbings rise in Israel, it is another direct-manifestation of the flawed Israeli policies on the subjugation of the Palestinians. As Ban Ki Moon [URL="http://www.un.org/sg/statements/index.asp?nid=9417"]released in a statement[/URL], After Netanyahu condemned Ban Ki-Moon's statement as "incitement" linking the stabbings to continued Israeli policies, Ban Ki-Moon dismissed him and doubled down in a later editorial in the New York Times. [URL]http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/01/opinion/dont-shoot-the-messenger-israel.html?_r=0[/URL] Israelis quickly try to dismiss Palestinian grievances by adopting the "Israeli Utopian" dialectic i.e. that is — Israel is doing nothing wrong. They hold that these Palestinian stabbings and terror attacks are purely an attack meant to damage the will of the Israeli Utopian freedom, thus the Palestinians should [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1509677&p=49893519&viewfull=1#post49893519"]collectively pay "even further"[/URL] for the wave of violence in Israel. This couldn't be a more ludicrous and embarrassing assumption. As Joe Biden has insinuated and the head of the United Nations made abundantly clear — these rise of terror attacks are in response to the no-progress decades-long occupation that Palestinians have endured on a daily basis. To take these stabbings indicative that Palestinians are inherently evil— independent of Israeli resolution — or that Israel is valid in implementing more occupation-security measures to subjugate the Palestinian people ("We should punish Palestinians even more") reveals to me one's inability to grasp even basic human fundamentals. No. The answer does not lie in punishing the Palestinians even more with additional "security measures" The answer to this crisis would be to force Israel to comply with international law and pertinent United Nations Security Council resolutions that even their staunchest ally, the U.S. has endorsed; ending the brutal occupation. These rise of terrors and Palestinian grievances arise under the weight of a half century of occupation and Israel's paralysis of the peace process. The people have had enough.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Starpluck;49977449]I am not going to bother addressing the "only democracy in the Middle East" facade that is routinely pulled— because you and I both know that is a myth— when at the minimum— 34% of all people in Greater Israel are treated as second-class citizens for the crime of not being Jewish. But the only "reliable ally" argument is also untrue. [URL]http://foreignpolicy.com/2012/01/13/false-flag/[/URL] For those who do not care to read, Israel routinely carries out assassinations of Iranian citizens. They also work with terrorist groups in Iran who seek to destabilize the government— [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Zahedan_bombing"]no matter how many civilians these terrorists kill[/URL]— but what is so remarkable about this case is that Israel would pose as Americans the entire time. Even as the US shot down Israeli proposals to do joint-assassinations of Iranian civilians and scientists, Israel would still conduct the operations as solo, but leave a paper trail back to America— not Israel— so us in America would be forced to deal with the fallout and potential risk of death. The return address for these acts of terrorism and assassinations would not be "Israel"— it would always be— The United States of America. This is truly the hallmark of a "reliable ally" that we must do everything possible in order to keep this holy alliance maintained.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Starpluck;49977598]That says absolutely nothing for the 34% of all people in Greater Israel that are treated as second-class citizens for the crime of not being Jewish. 25% of Arabs in Israel may be get fair treatment, but it says absolutely nothing for the majority of the Arab population— in Greater Israel— that compromise 34% of the overall Israeli population whom are treated as second-class citizens for "not being Jews" [editline]21st March 2016[/editline] Israel maintains a status quo of 25% max-Arab citizens in the state of Israel. They generally receive fair treatment in some cases. The 25% capped figure is to ensure that Arabs do not receive any meaningful representation in the government that can make serious Israeli policy reform or impact. But it is a good selling point nonetheless to say that Arabs have a mitigating say in the Israeli government. It bears stark resemblance to the Iranian policy of how even Jews have reserved seats in the Iranian parliament. It sounds good to the public but means little when it comes to policy reform. However— the important part I was referring to and what Svinnik seemed to have missed was that there are 34% of all Israeli people that are treated as second-class citizens because they aren't Jews. These are the Arabs in the occupied territories, and these are the Arabs that will have their homes demolished and be evicted— to pave way for Jews.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Starpluck;49989370]Without assessing the merits of Broseph's argument, if you're new to Israel-Palestine threads. You will notice one side (those who criticize Israel) routinely employ sources and reputable citations into their argument, while the opposing side (those who defend the State of Israel) quickly dismiss those sources with quick two liner-memes and antisemitic drivel. Throw in a sarcastic "lmao" or two into the mix and you've constructed a pro-Israeli post.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Starpluck;49989431]I said— "without assessing the merits of Broseph's argument" What we see is a disturbing trend to dismiss arguments with one line which is borderline shitposting. Here is a recent showcase of posts that were made in response to other posts filled to the brim with links and citations: --- Should've been banned. But I go easy on pro-Israelis. OK This post was in response to to my post that had a cumulative of 9 links leading to reputable sources. Presumably directed at my posts that had a cumulative of 9 links leading to reputable sources. -- We should probably strengthen up rules of debate in Sensationalist Headlines but that would mean mean banning a large portion of posters here. I would rather enjoy watching these people make themselves look bad replying to these largely-cited posts with a shitty one liner meme crap.[/QUOTE] Personal favorite, especially ScumBunny's retort: [QUOTE=Starpluck;49989775]See above- though I can't tell if he's making a joke based off [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1511373&p=49989431&viewfull=1#post49989431"]this post[/URL] or if [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1511373&p=49977449&viewfull=1#post49977449"]he's serious in refuting[/URL] these [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1511373&p=49977598&viewfull=1#post49977598"]type of[/URL] [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1511373&p=49977657&viewfull=1#post49977657"]posts [/URL]with that one-liner. Poe's law knows no boundaries when it comes to thinking of innovative ways to defend Israel. And ScumBunny, I do admire and credit your well detailed and thorough posts. You were the only contradicting-poster I thought of when I made that post. You are encouraged to post in Israel-Palestine threads more often.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=ScumBunny;49989978]Thanks, but I intentionally try not to. I meant it when I said posting the same arguments in the same discussions over and over gets tired after a while, and I'm enjoying my time in these forums too much to spend it all on being the token Israel shill.[/QUOTE] Gee, that search function sure is useful. Bear in mind that these are recent posts; [url=https://facepunch.com/search.php?searchid=7171350]there's a lot more if you care to dig through the past[/url]. For what valid criticisms there are against the Israeli government, this is a borderline-ridiculous obsession of his. [editline]9th May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=catbarf;50289147]I think there's a pretty big difference between 'Netanyahu criticizes statements taken out of context' and 'Israel is a thought police state where the truth is prohibited and criticizing Israel is disallowed'.[/QUOTE] This.
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