European migrant crisis: Shipwrecks 'kill up to 700 migrants' - Polidicks

[url]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36408029[/url] [quote]Up to 700 migrants are feared drowned in a series of shipwrecks off the coast of Libya in the last few days, the UN refugee agency says. The boats sank south of Italy on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday as the migrants tried to reach Europe in unseaworthy vessels. Spring weather has led to a surge of people attempting the perilous crossing from Africa to Europe. It is now a key migration route since a deal curbed numbers sailing to Greece.[/quote] I'm mainly psting this because along with it they released videos of what the boats actually look like. It's in the link, scroll to 1:15 but be prepared. Pictures + commentary here: [NSFW!!] [url]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36383897[/url] If you still think people subjecting themselves to this kind of shit because of "economic problems" or "welfare leeching" I really don't know what to say

[QUOTE=Killuah;50436060][url]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36408029[/url] I'm mainly psting this because along with it they released videos of what the boats actually look like. It's in the link, scroll to 1:15 but be prepared. Pictures + commentary here: [NSFW!!] [url]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36383897[/url] If you still think people subjecting themselves to this kind of shit because of "economic problems" or "welfare leeching" I really don't know what to say[/QUOTE] There are still those that really do just leech of off the countries they "flee" to. However, no one has ever claimed (except for those that really, really hate immigrants) that they [I]all[/I] do it. There are some who are genuinely fleeing from their own countries in hopes of starting a new and better life somewhere else, and that's the people we should be helping. Regardless, this is devastating news.

We spend about 20x more money when taking in refugees instead of helping them on site. When we spend 20x more, we have less money to spend helping people in refugee camps. When we don't help people in refugee camps, they are forced to come here. And the cycle is repeated. You have to put a stop to illegal migration so you can help more people and save more lives by giving them help on site. Whenever we take someone in, 20 others won't receive any help. And not to mention the strain on our societies that immigration causes.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50436060][url] If you still think people subjecting themselves to this kind of shit because of "economic problems" or "welfare leeching" I really don't know what to say[/QUOTE] Was this part of the post really necessary?

[QUOTE=jiggu;50436091]Was this part of the post really necessary?[/QUOTE] Probably yes [editline]1st June 2016[/editline] I heard some story where some smugglers would lock some people below (blacks and people who pay less) so if the boat capsized or sank the people below would have no chance to survive.

Killuah, your agenda doesn't change the fact that europe has no responsibility whatsoever to help these people send america and russia to take them home, they fucked up the entire region what with is going on in germany and surroundings, you can't say anymore that their blatant disregard for the local laws are isolated incidents

[QUOTE=orgornot;50436085]We spend about 20x more money when taking in refugees instead of helping them on site. When we spend 20x more, we have less money to spend helping people in refugee camps. When we don't help people in refugee camps, they are forced to come here. And the cycle is repeated. You have to put a stop to illegal migration so you can help more people and save more lives by giving them help on site. Whenever we take someone in, 20 others won't receive any help. And not to mention the strain on our societies that immigration causes.[/QUOTE] Since you complain about the ineffectiveness of "on-site" help: Out of the money we spent on disaster relief for Haiti only about 9% actually reached any Haitians. Just helping there is not the only way. I don't know why you use the word [I]instead[/I] We can do both. We can stop buying smartphones and expensive electronics funding the wars in middle-Africa. We can stop our subventions for farming driving the local farmers into foreign-dependent markets. We could buy fairly priced clothing stopping farming from destroying local ecosystems ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Turkana[/url]) Even those 3 minor examples from someone like me who hasn't the first professional clue would be effective "on-site" help. And it still is not hindering us from helping the ones already ariving. It's not an "instead"

[QUOTE=Egevened;50436116]Killuah, your agenda doesn't change the fact that europe has no responsibility whatsoever to help these people send america and russia to take them home, they fucked up the entire region what with is going on in germany and surroundings, you can't say anymore that their blatant disregard for the local laws are isolated incidents[/QUOTE] Who is "they" in your post? I also don't quite understand your last sentence, could you rephrase that? [editline]1st June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=jiggu;50436091]Was this part of the post really necessary?[/QUOTE] No. Do you feel affected?

[QUOTE=Killuah;50436129]Since you complain about the ineffectiveness of "on-site" help: Out of the money we spent on disaster relief for Haiti only about 9% actually reached any Haitians. Just helping there is not the only way. I don't know why you use the word [I]instead[/I] We can do both. We can stop buying smartphones and expensive electronics funding the wars in middle-Africa. We can stop our subventions for farming driving the local farmers into foreign-dependent markets. We could buy fairly priced clothing stopping farming from destroying local ecosystems ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Turkana[/url]) Even those 3 minor examples from someone like me who hasn't the first professional clue would be effective "on-site" help. And it still is not hindering us from helping the ones already ariving. It's not an "instead"[/QUOTE] It is an instead. Where do you think the money for helping migrants comes from? Here in Sweden the government keeps cutting from our foreign aid budget in order to accommodate for migrants. That is what I based my numbers on. So the politicians are saving less lives and putting a huge strain on our society in the process.

[QUOTE]We can stop our subventions for farming driving the local farmers into foreign-dependent markets. We could buy fairly priced clothing stopping farming from destroying local ecosystems[/QUOTE] These measures might stop economic migrants but not migrants fleeing war. Economic migrants do exist to a large extent, hence why migration to the UK topped 330,000 last year.

Friendly reminder, if you ever find yourself in a capsized boat, you need to get your life vest off as fast as possible. You will get stuck and die. Which unfortunately probably happened to a lot of those people.

Make it clear that if you come illegally you'll get [B]nothing[/B]. Then no more tragedies like these will happen. And the smugglers will go out of business.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50436145] No. Do you feel affected?[/QUOTE] You can see what you turned the thread into.

[QUOTE=orgornot;50436169]It is an instead. Where do you think the money for helping migrants comes from? [/quote] Where is the money funding expensive military projects coming from? Where is the money funding farming subventions coming from? Where is the money funding useless presige buildings coming from? Point being that THIS IS NOT HOW A GOVERNMENT BUDGET WORKS. [quote] Here in Sweden the government keeps cutting from our foreign aid budget in order to accommodate for migrants. That is what I based my numbers on. [/quote] Then it's a fair point to say that cutting that is not a good thing but it's absolutely stupid to make that connection this way. A source would be nice by the way [editline]1st June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=orgornot;50436191]Make it clear that if you come illegally you'll get [B]nothing[/B]. Then no more tragedies like these will happen. And the smugglers will go out of business.[/QUOTE] These people don't make that kind of informed decission.

[QUOTE=jiggu;50436091]Was this part of the post really necessary?[/QUOTE] Of course it was necessary to mention. It is driving his agenda of guilt-tripping and accusing those with differing opinion then his own as being xenophobes and being horrible horrible people for not agreeing with him.

[QUOTE=!LORD M!;50436309]Of course it was necessary to mention. It is driving his agenda of guilt-tripping and accusing those with differing opinion then his own as being xenophobes and being horrible horrible people for not agreeing with him.[/QUOTE] It's starting to seem really suspicious due to him never replying to posts that directly show how bad Islam really is and he just tip-toes around all the negative things regarding the refugees/migrants from middle-east and African regions. Almost like thinly veiled racism and hatred towards what Europe is. Never seen him acknowledge that there are a lot of problems stemming just from the people migrating from the said regions. Truly sucks that the boat sank but maybe just maybe not pay ILLEGAL smugglers to get you to Europe?

[QUOTE=!LORD M!;50436309]Of course it was necessary to mention. It is driving his agenda of guilt-tripping and accusing those with differing opinion then his own as being xenophobes and being horrible horrible people for not agreeing with him.[/QUOTE] This post tells more about you than about me tbh.

[QUOTE=pkhzor;50436335]It's starting to seem really suspicious due to him never replying to posts that directly show how bad Islam really is and he just tip-toes around all the negative things regarding the refugees/migrants from middle-east and African regions. Almost like thinly veiled racism and hatred towards what Europe is. Never seen him acknowledge that there are a lot of problems stemming just from the people migrating from the said regions.[/QUOTE] Oh you don't know the half of it. In many threads before when he asked for proof and statistics and when those were actually given from trustworthy sources like the GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, he outright didn't reply to those or heavily cherry picked. [QUOTE=Killuah;50436343]This post tells more about you than about me tbh.[/QUOTE] That I am unbiased and follow the facts?

[QUOTE=pkhzor;50436335]It's starting to seem really suspicious due to him never replying to posts that directly show how bad Islam really is and he just tip-toes around all the negative things regarding the refugees/migrants from middle-east and African regions. Almost like thinly veiled racism and hatred towards what Europe is. Never seen him acknowledge that there are a lot of problems stemming just from the people migrating from the said regions. Truly sucks that the boat sank but maybe just maybe not pay ILLEGAL smugglers to get you to Europe?[/QUOTE] This is just one boat btw. There are hundreds. How can you not acknowledge that people getting themselves in such a dangerous journey is literally their last option?

Why is Islam a discussion when most of those boats come from Libya carrying west African people looking for opportunities in Europe?

[QUOTE=!LORD M!;50436345]Oh you don't know the half of it. In many threads before when he asked for proof and statistics and when those were actually given from trustworthy sources like the GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, he outright didn't reply to those or heavily cherry picked. That I am unbiased and follow the facts?[/QUOTE] What facts man so far I have not accused anyone of being a xenophobe in this thread, that's what you brought up in connection to [quote]f you still think people subjecting themselves to this kind of shit because of "economic problems" or "welfare leeching" I really don't know what to say[/quote] In the other threads usually I am the one remembering people to look at the facts instead of just going "all of the immigrants" That's literally what I am ALWAYS pointing out. Not to generalize. [editline]1st June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=!LORD M!;50436345] That I am unbiased and follow the facts?[/QUOTE] Is this satire btw? Still remembering how you thougt it literally where 1000 rapists: [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1513474&p=50086731&viewfull=1#post50086731[/url] [editline]1st June 2016[/editline] Even then you pulled the "don't say I'm xenophobic" card when all I did was updating the thread with FACTS [QUOTE=!LORD M!;50086517]Oho, what a big surprise, so what all the victims and eyewitnesses and said turned out to be true? Oh my goood! And here we were told that they all were just racist xenophobes by the apologists and deniers! That's how apologists and deniers work. They want to shift the focus from the main picture to benefit their own agenda.[/QUOTE] This is by the way a thread where I gave [B]NUMBERS[/B] from [B]GOVERNMENT AGENCIES [/B]

-snip-

[QUOTE=Killuah;50436343]This post tells more about you than about me tbh.[/QUOTE] Nah, it just makes an analysis of your posts on this matter ever since this whole thing started. You know damn well that theres a huge number of people bandwagoning off the actual refugees, yet you still dismiss that fact and the fact that politicians opened up doors carelessly just to look good in front of the cameras, and disregarded all the problems this could bring, and now put everyone who thinks differently of you under a spotlight in a bad way.

Is Killuah, Angels Merkel's love child?

[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;50436469]Nah, it just makes an analysis of your posts on this matter ever since this whole thing started. You know damn well that theres a huge number of people bandwagoning off the actual refugees, yet you still dismiss that fact and the fact that politicians opened up doors carelessly just to look good in front of the cameras, and disregarded all the problems this could bring, and now put everyone who thinks differently of you under a spotlight in a bad way.[/QUOTE] Because looking good in front of the camera for helping people is... bad? Disregarding problems that [I]could come[/I] to solve problems that already exist? (like the one shown in the OP) What? Not to mention that we are also actively trying to solve problems that of course are coming with them so "disregarding" is also complete bullshit. Of course the pro Asylum/refugee people are aware of problems arising from this. You can read this up on every pro Refugee site. [url]https://www.proasyl.de/thema/fakten-zahlen-argumente/fakten-gegen-vorurteile/[/url] for example Of course it puts everyone who thinks differently than that under bad spotlight. What's your point? How is "he outright didn't reply to those or heavily cherry picked." an analysis? Sure I don't follow every thread to the end but who does? I have other stuff to do too. How is that post, without any links are actual examples, anything but bullshit?

[QUOTE=Killuah;50436513]Because looking good in front of the camera for helping people is... bad? Disregarding problems that [I]could come[/I] to solv problems that already exist? (like the one shown in the OP) Not to mention that we are also actively trying to solve problems that of course are coming with them? Of course it puts everyone who thinks differently than that under bad spotlight. What's your point?[/QUOTE] Did you forget to read your post or something? You're helping people, yay, and you're also messing things up for other people. You're probably messing things up for the people you're even trying to help actually. The problems of the people in the OP, the 700 people that died, are left unsolved, because instead of fleeing to closer countries, they tried for the further ones, from where they were promised help. Unless death is a solution for you... You're solving problems in one place, and making up problems elsewhere, and thats for sure. My point is that this isn't a black and white situation. You can't give a 5 second answer to this 5 second question when theres so much at stake here. It's not a simple relocation operation. There are consequences, and you don't give a crap about them because you aswell want to look good in front of everyone, and because you won't have to handle those consequences at all. If there was put more thought into this other than "we have to help them so that we look good and that we can call bad names to people who think this isn't a good idea", this could have worked out SOO MUCH BETTER. And don't act like this wasn't a simple "we want to look good" kind of thing.

[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;50436568]Did you forget to read your post or something? You're helping people, yay, and you're also messing things up for other people. You're probably messing things up for the people you're even trying to help actually. The problems of the people in the OP, the 700 people that died, are left unsolved, because instead of fleeing to closer countries, they tried for the further ones, from where they were promised help. Unless death is a solution for you... You're solving problems in one place, and making up problems elsewhere, and thats for sure. My point is that this isn't a black and white situation. You can't give a 5 second answer to this 5 second question when theres so much at stake here. It's not a simple relocation operation. There are consequences, and you don't give a crap about them because you aswell want to look good in front of everyone, and because you won't have to handle those consequences at all.[/QUOTE] In the case of Syria this is actually wrong????? The neighbouring states are hosting millions of refugees under horrible conditions? North Africa is no option as well, Arab Spring fucked that up pretty well too. [quote]My point is that this isn't a black and white situation. You can't give a 5 second answer to this 5 second question when theres so much at stake here. It's not a simple relocation operation. There are consequences,[/quote] Agree so far. [quote] and you don't give a crap about them, because you aswell want to look good in front of everyone[/quote] this is literally the black and white thinking you are speaking about? "they are helping because they want to look good" is literally that exact black and white thinking?

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;50436101]Probably yes[/QUOTE] Emotional appeal using the deaths of human beings to push an agenda is fuckibg disgusting regardless of what agenda is being pushed.

Europe does not want, nor need to take care of the world's problems. They took the risk of using a vessel which was top-heavy and it flipped on them, causing the deaths of several innocent people. If any of the traffickers that encouraged people to get on this boat are found, give them nothing short of a bullet for ultimately leading to deaths of hundreds.

[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;50436625]Emotional appeal using the deaths of human beings to push an agenda is fuckibg disgusting regardless of what agenda is being pushed.[/QUOTE] the agenda is better treatment of the kind of people who died what the fuck are you talking about that's like saying that emotional appeals using the deaths of 9/11 first responders is disgusting when pushing the agenda of better treatment for 9/11 first responders