Does Free will exist or is the future set in stone.
I have found a few articles on the subject
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism[/url]
[url]http://www.galilean-library.org/site/index.php/page/index.html/_/essays/introducingphilosophy/13-free-will-and-determinism-r29[/url]
[url]http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/[/url]
[url]http://www.dmoz.org/Society/Philosophy/Metaphysics/Free_Will_and_Determinism/[/url]
I don't believe the future is already made, There are way to many variables to take into account, for instance something as little as a thought on what for lunch can change a persons behavior and ultimately change the outcome of a set of actions. However I am not blind to the counter arguments of this statement, I can see that some people would not call the variables and they are already defined by the course you took to get to that point. I also don't deny that the course of your life to that point has some effect on your choice of decisions.
However what are your view on this age old debate Facepunch.
Discuss
Without any kind of prior knowledge of the subject, doesn't quantum physics dictate that the behavior of particles becomes impossible to predict (because there is no determined way that they will act) at a certain atomic or sub-atomic level? If so, doesn't that rule out any kind of set future?
Freewill doesn't exist, but free thoughts do.
we can look at it in the equation A+B=C, where A and B are reasons, and C is an action. In order for the action to change, one o the thoughts would have to change as well. A and B could never equate to action D.
Here's an example.
Going to class would be C, and not going to class would be D. Motivation A would be doing well in class, and motivation B would liking the class.
If you liked the class and wanted to do well, why would you choose to not go? Another variable would have to be introduced, such as not feeling well, being lazy, etc. In our minds our established personas will dictate the type of actions we make.
Everything that happens is only the result of past events.
I'll use Trogdon's example of going to class. In order for you to choose not to go to class, there would have to be another variable introduced. However, if you go back and repeat the sequence of deciding whether or not to go to class, the result would be the same every time. No new variables magically appear.
An uneducated comment about quantum unpredictability: could it be that every possible outcome occurs in separate branches of the universe, and we are in an arbitrary branch so it gives the appearance of randomness?
[QUOTE=Ziks;34935144]An uneducated comment about quantum unpredictability: could it be that every possible outcome occurs in separate branches of the universe, and we are in an arbitrary branch so it gives the appearance of randomness?[/QUOTE]
The many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics says something very much like that.
Maybe it isn't really branching into separate worlds but all the outcomes are somehow encoded into the wave function of the particles involved.
[sp]Possibly talking out my ass[/sp]
If the future is determined, then we have no free will.
If the future is random, then our actions are also random and we are not responsible for them, thus, we have no free will.
[editline]29th February 2012[/editline]
Hint: Free will can't be understood in terms of of the predictability of the material world.
[QUOTE=Ziks;34935816]Maybe it isn't really branching into separate worlds but all the outcomes are somehow encoded into the wave function of the particles involved.
[sp]Possibly talking out my ass[/sp][/QUOTE]
Quite possible, as in the De Broglie-Bohm theory. There are non-local hidden variable theories like it which make quantum mechanics deterministic, but they're not terribly widely accepted because the universe appears to be local i.e. things all over the universe do not appear to affect each other simultaneously like these theories require.
[editline]29th February 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=matsta;34936591]If the future is determined, then we have no free will.
If the future is random, then our actions are also random and we are not responsible for them, thus, we have no free will.
[editline]29th February 2012[/editline]
Hint: Free will can't be understood in terms of of the predictability of the material world.[/QUOTE]
Quite true. The fact that quantum mechanics is usually not deterministic doesn't mean we have free will.
I never had much concern over fate or free will as I figured whatever I believed in didn't change whatever truth of the matter there was, for better or for worse.
If determinism is true, then wether or not we prove it to be true has already been determined, therefore its pointless to talk about it :)
[QUOTE=Splooosh;34939763]If determinism is true, then wether or not we prove it to be true has already been determined, therefore its pointless to talk about it :)[/QUOTE]
But it would've already been determined that we talked about it.
I'm a firm believer in Hard Determinism.
Quantum uncertainty or not, i still don't see how that gives us free will.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;34937759]Quite true. The fact that quantum mechanics is usually not deterministic doesn't mean we have free will.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Nerdrage;34937759]I'm a firm believer in Hard Determinism.
Quantum uncertainty or not, i still don't see how that gives us free will.[/QUOTE]
Actually, I think the question of free will does not have to do with the determinacy of reality.
If you analyse my statements, and every statement that contrasts free will with determinism, you can perceive that the "I" is nowhere in those statements. I mean, they always assume that we, somehow, 'let reality choose for us', when, in fact, we do make choices.
The fact that our choices are predictable doesn't imply that we don't make them. The problem is that, if you consider a subject as a phenomenon (as observable by a different subject), then you won't [I]see[/I] the choice anywhere. The choice is always perceived from inside. And that will, of course, seem very subjective to you, but it is in the subjective where those ideas are [/B]real[B].
[QUOTE=Chrille;34933450]Without any kind of prior knowledge of the subject, doesn't quantum physics dictate that the behavior of particles becomes impossible to predict (because there is no determined way that they will act) at a certain atomic or sub-atomic level? If so, doesn't that rule out any kind of set future?[/QUOTE]
Yes, quantum physics seems to be the only real area in nature where things aren't predetermined. I saw an article way back trying to make sense of the outcomes of quantum probabilities with fractal mathematics as a base to predict future quantum events. Not sure the outcome of that, it was a while back I read on EBSCO host for a class paper.
Regardless, the prime indicator of quantum physics being an area where pre-determined outcomes are challenged is the fact that quantum physics is the only area that breaks the scientific method (a method of attributing pre-deterministic qualities into nature's systems). It breaks it because observation has a tendency of screwing with the result of quantum effects, and one of the key steps in the scientific method is that of observation. So go figure.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;34937772]I never had much concern over fate or free will as I figured whatever I believed in didn't change whatever truth of the matter there was, for better or for worse.[/QUOTE]
The main issue is the implications of determinism, i.e. how can we have morality and punishments without free will?
"You should have known better."
"I couldn't have known better because my knowledge and actions were causally determined by a long string of events spanning far before my birth."
"Still though."
[QUOTE=blubafoon;35011477]The main issue is the implications of determinism, i.e. how can we have morality and punishments without free will?
"You should have known better."
"I couldn't have known better because my knowledge and actions were causally determined by a long string of events spanning far before my birth."
"Still though."[/QUOTE]
It's a nice logical question, but getting humanity to ever accept determinism is (at least i'm pretty sure) impossible. If nobody can be held accountable for anything they do, or even given credit for anything they do (in the sense that "they" as an entity actually did it and not the particles they're made of), then the entire point of existence is defunct. Or at least the point of existence as I see it.
I don't think determinism defuncts morality at all anyway. In as much as I am a contained object (even a deterministic object) within the world, there is a definite sense in which the acts I perform directly stem from me. If people want something more than the ability to recognise responsibility and moral agency, then I'm really not sure what they want. But as it stands I really fail to see how even hard determinism affects moral agency.
[QUOTE=blubafoon;35011477]The main issue is the implications of determinism, i.e. how can we have morality and punishments without free will?
"You should have known better."
"I couldn't have known better because my knowledge and actions were causally determined by a long string of events spanning far before my birth."
"Still though."[/QUOTE]
Deterministically, that person was fated to say that. With free will, that person may be wrong, but still says it.
How I see things is, whether it was determined to be or not is irrelevant to the fact that [I]it happened.[/I]
can someone please actually articulate what you mean by free will
I would call it the ability to make choices without being completely influenced by historical events.
[QUOTE=Ziks;35025422]I would call it the ability to make choices without being completely influenced by historical events.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by "make choices"?
[editline]6th March 2012[/editline]
How do you mean "without being influenced by the past"?
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;35026150]What do you mean by "make choices"?
[editline]6th March 2012[/editline]
How do you mean "without being influenced by the past"?[/QUOTE]
By "make choices" I mean evaluating the possible options presented by a situation and selecting one.
For "without being [B]completely[/B] influenced by the past", I mean having some sort of magical separate system in our minds that is not required to follow the laws of cause and effect.
I do not think we have free will as I have defined it, as that would break conservation of energy among other things.
[QUOTE=Chrille;34933450]Without any kind of prior knowledge of the subject, doesn't quantum physics dictate that the behavior of particles becomes impossible to predict (because there is no determined way that they will act) at a certain atomic or sub-atomic level? If so, doesn't that rule out any kind of set future?[/QUOTE]
just because we can't predict the future, doesn't mean it isn't determined. We can't know the exact location of any particle, thanks to the Uncertainty Principle, but every particle still has one specific location. We just don't know it.
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;35031566]just because we can't predict the future, doesn't mean it isn't determined. We can't know the exact location of any particle, thanks to the Uncertainty Principle, but every particle still has one specific location. We just don't know it.[/QUOTE]
Actually many of the leading scientists in the founding of quantum theory had anti-realist interpretations i.e. particles do not actually have properties until they are observed.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;35032059]Actually many of the leading scientists in the founding of quantum theory had anti-realist interpretations i.e. particles do not actually have properties until they are observed.[/QUOTE]
...what? so you are saying particles don't have a location unless looked at?
I honestly don't know but plenty of respectable scientists believed and still do believe that.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;35032107]I honestly don't know but plenty of respectable scientists believed and still do believe that.[/QUOTE]
hmm. Quantum physics does have a lot of ideas that make you wonder. (for example: string theory)
Ah, nevermind, high guy talk.
I think we have free will, and there is no way to accurately predict the future with 100% certainty.
Your options are final, you can do whatever you want but you can never undo it. There is only one future, but it can never be predicted.
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