[QUOTE]"Since it looks like the UK is leaving the EU we will treat it as if it's no longer part of the club."[/QUOTE]
:(
I reckon most people here (including myself) have the same view of the EU as Kurzgesagt does; a great, but flawed idea that has contributed much and is a net positive, yet has some problems that need to be ironed out.
Probably the big takeaway from this for me is the EU failing to get its message across. People in the UK are hardly educated on their own national politics, never mind the workings of a supra-national entity based in another country.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52097961]The idea isnt flawed, current implementation is.[/QUOTE]
Whoops, that's what I meant. A great idea that's flawed in execution.
Though honestly, I never see many arguments against the idea of an EU, and when I do they're always something baffling like "the EU wants to reduce the identity and culture of European countries so they can annex them into a European superstate".
[QUOTE=Samiam22;52097983]Whoops, that's what I meant. A great idea that's flawed in execution.
Though honestly, I never see many arguments against the idea of an EU, and when I do they're always something baffling like "the EU wants to reduce the identity and culture of European countries so they can annex them into a European superstate".[/QUOTE]
and most of them have this idea that the EU is damaging "sovereignty"
Ever after that one Syrian Refugee video, I've been a little cautious when Kurzgesagt gets political.
That said, this one was pretty much on the point.
Having an EU common market is great, a great idea that has no downsides. The EU in it's current form is flawed as fuck. It's a mess of red tape and inefficiency.
Keep the European Common Market, get rid of/reform the EU.
[QUOTE=ElectronicG19;52098128]Having an EU common market is great, a great idea that has no downsides. The EU in it's current form is flawed as fuck. It's a mess of red tape and inefficiency.
Keep the European Common Market, get rid of/reform the EU.[/QUOTE]
Reforming it is far simpler than taking it all down and rebuilding it from the ground up. The argument against Brexit is precisely that, had separatists campaigned for reform with the same fervor they did independence, it's likely that action would have been taken by now as this is a far more common, pan-European sentiment. Britain in its privileged position within the bloc could have been the one to put forward such reforms, instead it must now redo what nearly half a century of cooperation has done, before the time for negotiations ends.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;52098127]A united Europe is a step in the right direction.
Cultural identity becoming a potential victim is a totally acceptable collateral victim of this process, because it serves very little purpose beyond cultivating aggressive nationalism, distrust of arbitrarily condemned "foreigners", and sews the seeds of isolationism in both the public and the government. All of these things are factually bad for the economy and the quality of life of citizens.
The EU needs to up their rules and regulations regarding members states, in order to politely yet firmly enforce correct and transparent conduct of its members, to prevent bursting economic bubbles like Greece and unstable faux-democracies like Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary. Its reach and influence should not only be expanded but also strengthened, so as to be able to directly stifle any political shift that hints at the possibility of legislation forgoing the rights of any citizen. Failure to comply with such demands should be met with gradual sanctions and even outright ousting from the EU if the offending party refuses to cooperate.
A combined force made up of all member states is also a fantastic idea. That level of integration and unity would be unrivaled, and unprecedented in history. It would basically be an empire that isn't hellbent on war, monarchies, or subjugation - but rather a superstate built upon the foundations of economic and military cooperation, and would get us much closer to the concept of a unified Earth. If this goal involves mass riots and unrest from people who are offended at the concept of letting go of their "cultural identities" (whatever that means, the definition is so vague, broad and subjective you cant even pinpoint what it actually is), then so be it. In a very short period of time, people will suddenly start living more comfortably than ever before in history, and money is the greatest persuader. Who cares about flags when your children could have the best education and the greatest financial stability they could ever hope for?[/QUOTE]
So you want to demolish the results of hundreds of years progress in cultural development, languages, tradititions and behaviours of hundreds of cultures in Europe? That's something oppressive dictators have done that have wanted no opposition to their rule. Making other cultures inferior in favour of their own (unified european culture in this case), deportation from people homelands. You know what this have resulted in before, the solution isn't being hostile against culture.
[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;52098292]He's not suggesting demolish all culture at once, I'm sure even if EU did step up its game big time you'd be allowed to continue enjoying most of your culture.
It's just that some people are so deathly afraid of anything other than their own country and their own culture that they do something ridiculous as Brexit[/QUOTE]
Well, let's not get rid of all differences we got and should cherish at once. Let's just lump together into a big booring cultural blob, where no one is unique over time. That would be the most wasteful and tragic thing to happen in modern times.
You know what's interesting there was another party that shared those same believes, the gradual removal of culture and religion but ironically they brought some of that back during the war.
Soviet Union.
[B]Edit:[/B]
Also 70 years of peace? wasn't there a war in the 1990's in the euro.
[QUOTE=Sims_doc;52098330]You know what's interesting there was another party that shared those same believes, the gradual removal of culture and religion but ironically they brought some of that back during the war.
Soviet Union.[/QUOTE]
What's wrong with the Soviet Union? You say that like it's some sort of shocker but it's not?
[QUOTE=Sims_doc;52098330]You know what's interesting there was another party that shared those same believes, the gradual removal of culture and religion but ironically they brought some of that back during the war.
Soviet Union.
[B]Edit:[/B]
Also 70 years of peace? wasn't there a war in the 1990's in the euro.[/QUOTE]
No.
It was outside of the EU AT THE TIME.
Slovenia/ Croatia werent existing as independent countries, but were under the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;52098342]What's wrong with the Soviet Union? You say that like it's some sort of shocker but it's not?[/QUOTE]
Nothing, in cultural aspects. It's a model for European federalists to follow. Just educate those not willing to be model Soviet citizens.
As for the threats if they mean mostly Terrorism I think they'll be fine. As for like external invasion, as long as France has nukes I wouldn't worry. If it's a NATO country being attacked then that's actually possibly going to drag Britain into it also. Seems great otherwise.
:snip: misread?
[QUOTE=RB33;52098311]Well, let's not get rid of all differences we got and should cherish at once. Let's just lump together into a big booring cultural blob, where no one is unique over time. That would be the most wasteful and tragic thing to happen in modern times.[/QUOTE]
There's definitely worse (even in the EU), but yeah it ranks pretty high on the list.
Personally, I really like the cultural patchwork we've got here in Europe. I don't think it's necessary to discourage individual identities either, since we should be able to figure out how to respect each other in other ways even if we express ourselves pretty differently.
[QUOTE=RB33;52098311]Well, let's not get rid of all differences we got and should cherish at once. Let's just lump together into a big booring cultural blob, where no one is unique over time. That would be the most wasteful and tragic thing to happen in modern times.[/QUOTE]
Seriously?
The United States has pretty big cultural differences and groups within our borders that are fucking WIDENING as a unified country for over 200 years with a powerful central government. European cultures would survive a unified military lol.
[QUOTE=RB33;52098348]Nothing, in cultural aspects. It's a model for European federalists to follow. Just educate those not willing to be model Soviet citizens.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Sims_doc;52098330]You know what's interesting there was another party that shared those same believes, the gradual removal of culture and religion but ironically they brought some of that back during the war.
Soviet Union.[/QUOTE]
Wtf.
Countries were forced into the Soviet Union and weren't allowed out as it was a dictatorship. Just ask hungary, czechoslovakia, etc. what happened when they tried to leave or, hell, even reform. It was atheistic (not secularism, as the EU is) and it viciously forced Russian culture upon all others as the ideal. Your comparison is downright lunacy
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52099278]Seriously?
The United States has pretty big cultural differences and groups within our borders that are fucking WIDENING as a unified country for over 200 years with a powerful central government. European cultures would survive a unified military lol.[/QUOTE]
If the Europe went with even a fourth of what US culture is now, it would be a complete diaster. Europe's culture are completly different and separate from each other and not comparable to US subcultures. Californians don't speak another language from the people in Maine and have completely different traditions.
[QUOTE]
Wtf.
Countries were forced into the Soviet Union and weren't allowed out as it was a dictatorship. Just ask hungary, czechoslovakia, etc. what happened when they tried to leave or, hell, even reform. It was atheistic (not secularism, as the EU is) and it viciously forced Russian culture upon all others as the ideal. Your comparison is downright lunacy[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Marbolo;52098127]Cultural identity becoming a potential victim is a totally acceptable collateral victim of this process[/QUOTE]
The result is the same and is completely unacceptable. No Irish, no Spaniards, no Polish, all are booring Europeans talking the same langugage and having the same European traditions. Because well, we got rid of everything else, it was just a totally acceptable collateral victim, right? No "wars" made it worth it, like we're going to war right now against each other in Europe.
[QUOTE=RB33;52099373]If the Europe went with even a fourth of what US culture is now, it would be a complete diaster. Europe's culture are completly different and separate from each other and not comparable to US subcultures. Californians don't speak another language from the people in Maine and have completely different traditions.
[/QUOTE] Your claim was that you'd wind up a single homogenous cultural blob tho
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52099381]Your claim was that you'd wind up a single homogenous cultural blob tho[/QUOTE]
If we follow this, we are certainly on that path.
[QUOTE=Marbolo;52098127]Cultural identity becoming a potential victim is a totally acceptable collateral victim of this process[/QUOTE]
It's no different than the Soviets believing in making everyone of Russian culture in the Soviet Union. You should never forcefully take away someones culture and identity.
[QUOTE=RB33;52099402]If we follow this, we are certainly on that path.
It's no different than the Soviets believing in making everyone of Russian culture in the Soviet Union. You should never forcefully take away someones culture and identity.[/QUOTE]
How though? The US example shows that different cultures and identities can persist even under a highly centralized government, which is far short from what most EU supporters even want.
In the specific example of a European military. It's called a lingua franca buddy in regards to linguistics.
Fuck look at you right now. You're speaking English because that's the language of the wider internet. But you're using it to defend nationalism lol.
Also, it's not "forcefully" taking away someone's culture and identity. They're allowed to, and certainly do keep it.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52099411]Burden of Proof
[editline]13th April 2017[/editline]
You are clinging on one possibility Marbalo, an individual on a video games forum, spoke about, to prove that EU will definitely result in this[/QUOTE]
What am I saying is that if people believe in that on a massive scale, it might unfortunately happen. That's neither good or acceptable. I will vote to leave the EU the very second, if the EU leadership works towards that.
[QUOTE=RB33;52098284]So you want to demolish the results of hundreds of years progress in cultural development, languages, tradititions and behaviours of hundreds of cultures in Europe? That's something oppressive dictators have done that have wanted no opposition to their rule. Making other cultures inferior in favour of their own (unified european culture in this case), deportation from people homelands. You know what this have resulted in before, the solution isn't being hostile against culture.[/QUOTE]
I have a problem with cultures being forcefully erased. I have no problem with cultures changing as a result of their natural progression. You know, the exact same progression that birthed them in the first place?
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52099428]How though? The US example shows that different cultures and identities can persist even under a highly centralized government, which is far short from what most EU supporters even want.
In the specific example of a European military. It's called a lingua franca buddy in regards to linguistics.
Fuck look at you right now. You're speaking English because that's the language of the wider internet. But you're using it to defend nationalism lol.
Also, it's not "forcefully" taking away someone's culture and identity. They're allowed to, and certainly do keep it.[/QUOTE]
How many European immigrants still speak their ancestors language? If it's low, then it's not that accepting and multicultural.
Yes and if people don't defend their languages, we might only be able to speak English or whatever European lingua franca. Would that be a good thing? If you're making centralization at the cost of culture, doesn't that involve a bit of force. There will be people against it and you're giving them no choice.
[QUOTE=Doom14;52098086]Ever after that one Syrian Refugee video, I've been a little cautious when Kurzgesagt gets political.
That said, this one was pretty much on the point.[/QUOTE]
meh, the way i've seen it, he has a clear lean but he also seems like he does as much as he can to present both sides
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52099506]snip[/QUOTE]
I haven't said that it's going to happen, meanwhile we got a user saying cultural identities are totally acceptable collateral victim. If people are going to advocate that, it's going to make me and others wary. Just like if someone would advocate fascist beliefs.
This kind of talk only pushes anti-EU people further away from the EU as well, they already think it's an overreaching bureaucracy.
Edit: I see you snipped it, i will still keep my reply.
[QUOTE=RB33;52099515]I haven't said that it's going to happen, meanwhile we got a user saying cultural identities are totally acceptable collateral victim. If people are going to advocate that, it's going to make me and others wary. Just like if someone would advocate fascist beliefs.
Edit: I see you snipped it, i will still keep my reply.[/QUOTE]
why do you keep trying to equate any sort of cultural development over time with forced assimilation?
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;52099437]I have a problem with cultures being forcefully erased. I have no problem with cultures changing as a result of their natural progression. You know, the exact same progression that birthed them in the first place?[/QUOTE]
So if we're all speaking one language, some kind of mix of between all European languages, that would be fine? No unique features in another language and a Finn would celebrate all the same traditions as someone from Malta, a Scotsman would do the exact same thing as an Bulgarian. We would lose lots of things that make us interesting.
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