Pakistani mob storms police station and beats to death man accused of burning Koran - Polidicks

[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20823531[/url] [quote=BBC News][B]A mob in Pakistan has stormed a police station and beaten to death a Muslim man accused of desecrating the Koran.[/B] The victim's body was then set alight, according to witnesses. The unnamed victim had earlier been handed over to the police after burnt pages of the Koran were found in a mosque in Dadu district, 330km (200 miles) north of Karachi, where he had been staying overnight. Hours later a mob went to the police station, seized the man and killed him. The district police chief, Usman Ghani, told the BBC the gruesome incident was filmed on mobile phones. He said the footage was being reviewed to identify culprits. Thirty people have so far been detained in connection with the attack. The local police chief and five of his officers have been arrested for failing to protect the man. The BBC's Shahzeb Jillani says blasphemy is a highly sensitive issue in Pakistan, where scores of people have been killed by mobs or vigilantes. Our correspondent in Karachi adds that the controversial laws are often misused to persecute minorities or settle scores. Most recently, international attention focused on the case of Christian teenager Rimsha Masih, who was held over blasphemy allegations. The case was dismissed last month after a neighbour gave evidence that she had been framed, possibly to chase Christians out of her neighbourhood outside Islamabad. In 2011, two leading politicians - the Governor of Punjab province, Salman Taseer, and the Religious Minorities Minister, Shahbaz Bhatti - were assassinated after speaking out against the existing blasphemy legislation.[/quote]

How civilised.

[QUOTE=eddy-tt-;38939687]How civilised.[/QUOTE] Civilisation is in the eye of the beholder; they see the burning of scared texts going unpunished as uncivilised.

Uncivilised is burning pages of someone elses religious book, this is just brutal.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;38939694]Civilisation is in the eye of the beholder; they see the burning of scared texts going unpunished as uncivilised.[/QUOTE] Murdering them though isn't a fitting punishment, it's purely barbaric. They should be trialled and handed out a sentence at least if they believe that so much.

I am at a loss for words.

[QUOTE=eddy-tt-;38939728]Murdering them though isn't a fitting punishment, it's purely barbaric. They should be trialled and handed out a sentence at least if they believe that so much.[/QUOTE] What is and is not a fitting punishment for any crime is subjective. You think it's inappropriate and obviously those who killed him thought it was appropriate. The belief in Moral objectivity is far more damaging to society than any individual act of violence, no matter how deplorable it may seems to us.

This is just cultural bullshit. I find it ridiculous that a Muslim who would get offended by having their Holy Book burnt would beat the accused to death and then set his body alight. That's not very Islamic at all. Most of these attacks are a result of uneducated, barbaric idiots who get together and form a mob, and then just go crazy and fuel each other's hatred for the accused, in an attempt to make themselves feel better and religiously superior. Pathetic.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;38939838]What is and is not a fitting punishment for any crime is subjective. You think it's inappropriate and obviously those who killed him thought it was appropriate. The belief in Moral objectivity is far more damaging to society than any individual act of violence, no matter how deplorable it may seems to us.[/QUOTE] Can you explain how moral objectivity is harmful without using subjective morals?

Nevermind, -snip-'ing this.

[quote]The local police chief and five of his officers have been arrested for failing to protect the man. [/quote] Even the cop gets in trouble

Well, you know what they say: When in Rome, offend the Romans. Oh wait, no they don't. Cause then this happens. EDIT: Appears the person might've been framed. But apparently this happens to others as well, so my comment still stands I guess.

CaseWithScience would be more fucked.

Its sad the guy was just accused and killed off without any due trial. No surprise considering how shitty pakistan's police is. First those polio workers get killed, now this..

Who says you get to be judge, jury, and executioner? Nothing gives you the right to corner and brutally kill another human being like that.

[QUOTE=eddy-tt-;38939687]How civilised.[/QUOTE] You mean how victorious.

[QUOTE=loopoo;38939935]This is just cultural bullshit. I find it ridiculous that a Muslim who would get offended by having their Holy Book burnt would beat the accused to death and then set his body alight. That's not very Islamic at all. Most of these attacks are a result of uneducated, barbaric idiots who get together and form a mob, and then just go crazy and fuel each other's hatred for the accused, in an attempt to make themselves feel better and religiously superior. Pathetic.[/QUOTE] Right it's been a long time since religious studies so correct me if I'm wrong, but iirc this is actually a very islamic response since they believe in sharia law which allows them to cut the hand off a thief and etc. That being said I'm pretty sure alot of Muslims have modernised in the western world and don't believe that response is justified any more. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but I am just trying to show WHY they would do it. So in some ways it's a very Islamic approach (very extreme I stress though.)

as civilised as the london riots

The worst part I find to be that he was merely accused, not even proven guilty, yet people went batshit on him. Everything about this is just horrible.

Its been said before and it will be said again, "Islam is a religion lead by the sword" Fucking barbaric.

[QUOTE=Coble;38942974] That being said I'm pretty sure alot of Muslims have modernised in the western world and don't believe that response is justified any more. [/QUOTE] While I agree that what happened to the man is massively wrong and even if he did commit the act he likely had some other problems going on seeing as he was staying over night in a mosque (possibly homeless etc) it is wrong to claim that other societies aren't modern as you're just making the problem worse by considering everything they do to be primitive compared to our 'superior western civilization'. Just in the same way that calling countries third world is wrong.

[QUOTE=Coble;38942974]Right it's been a long time since religious studies so correct me if I'm wrong, but iirc this is actually a very islamic response since they believe in sharia law which allows them to cut the hand off a thief and etc. That being said I'm pretty sure alot of Muslims have modernised in the western world and don't believe that response is justified any more. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but I am just trying to show WHY they would do it. So in some ways it's a very Islamic approach (very extreme I stress though.)[/QUOTE] People ganging up to take "justice" in their own hands is not allowed in the Sharia. It should be handled by the authorities, and if the accused is found guilty, he is offered a chance to repent for his actions, and if not, then the punishment (whatever it is) is carried out. [editline]23rd December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Callius;38943066]While I agree that what happened to the man is massively wrong and even if he did commit the act he likely had some other problems going on seeing as he was staying over night in a mosque (possibly homeless etc) it is wrong to claim that other societies aren't modern as you're just making the problem worse by considering everything they do to be primitive compared to our 'superior western civilization'. Just in the same way that calling countries third world is wrong.[/QUOTE] His post sounded a bit condescending, but then I think he was referring to vigilante action in sharia and not capital punishment.

Fucking savages.

[QUOTE=Coble;38942974]Right it's been a long time since religious studies so correct me if I'm wrong, but iirc this is actually a very islamic response since they believe in sharia law which allows them to cut the hand off a thief and etc. That being said I'm pretty sure alot of Muslims have modernised in the western world and don't believe that response is justified any more. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but I am just trying to show WHY they would do it. So in some ways it's a very Islamic approach (very extreme I stress though.)[/QUOTE] Beating someone to death and burning their body isn't Sharia law. Even in death, the perpetrator should be handled with respect and dignity. It's not our place (I say "our" place, as I used to be Muslim) to dish out punishment in this world. In Islam, [U]you are meant to kill the criminals[/U] [I](who have done serious crimes, and that whole "cutting the hand off a thief" isn't something that is done lightly. It's all about context. If some poor man or child or woman steals bread to feed themselves, they will not get their hand chopped off. If someone goes and steals your family heirloom or whatever, for greed and personal gain, then that's grounds to have your hand chopped off. But even then, following Sharia law, it should be sorted out in the court of law, rather than just straight-off getting the criminal's hand chopped off, and depending on the severity of the crime, the criminal can have a second chance)[/I] [U]in a respectful way.[/U] You shouldn't desecrate their bodies or make them suffer. To show how heavily this is shown, the Prophet Muhammed said that even in battle, do not kill an enemy in anger, or make them suffer, as you yourself will be punished for it. So, like I said. This isn't Sharia law. And killing someone over burning the Quran is a joke. If it was handled correctly, Sharia law would have put him in jail (yes, it's bad, but it's a hell of a lot better than being beaten to death). It's not the place of your average Muslim to take matters into his own hands. It's not his place to make someone else suffer. Like I said, this is just mob hivemind in play. Uneducated people banding together and fuelling their hatred over such a trivial thing, just because they think it's the right and religious thing to do. It isn't right. The problem with religion is that so many uneducated people (since it is so easily believed for someone uneducated to "devoutly" follow the religion) make up the main bulk of the religious demographic. Most of them tend not to read their own religious texts (whichever religion they're from) and tend to take matters into their own hands and handle the situation wrong. So many of these situations happen as a direct result of ignorance and religious fervour (or what they [I]think[/I] is religious fervour). If the vast majority of Muslims read their Holy Book, then you wouldn't have this mindless killing. The fact of the matter is, barely anyone does, and instead just blindly follows what they believe to be the religious ideal.

[QUOTE=Callius;38943066]While I agree that what happened to the man is massively wrong and even if he did commit the act he likely had some other problems going on seeing as he was staying over night in a mosque (possibly homeless etc) it is wrong to claim that other societies aren't modern as you're just making the problem worse by considering everything they do to be primitive compared to our 'superior western civilization'. Just in the same way that calling countries third world is wrong.[/QUOTE] If your culture allows or promotes shit like this on a regular basis then I'm sorry but it's fucking inferior, it's the 21st century, there's no place for barbarism such as this in the modern fucking world. Fuck this whole "all cultures and societies are equal in their own ways," bullshit, I don't give a fuck about their religion, if you're storming police stations and beating people to death and setting them on fire because they [i]may[/i] have burnt a few pages of a book then you're uncultured, uncivilised barbarians mascarading as modern humans.

[QUOTE=loopoo;38943236]Beating someone to death and burning their body isn't Sharia law. Even in death, the perpetrator should be handled with respect and dignity. It's not our place (I say "our" place, as I used to be Muslim) to dish out punishment in this world. In Islam, [U]you are meant to kill the criminals[/U] [I](who have done serious crimes, and that whole "cutting the hand off a thief" isn't something that is done lightly. It's all about context. If some poor man or child or woman steals bread to feed themselves, they will not get their hand chopped off. If someone goes and steals your family heirloom or whatever, for greed and personal gain, then that's grounds to have your hand chopped off. But even then, following Sharia law, it should be sorted out in the court of law, rather than just straight-off getting the criminal's hand chopped off, and depending on the severity of the crime, the criminal can have a second chance)[/I] [U]in a respectful way.[/U] You shouldn't desecrate their bodies or make them suffer. To show how heavily this is shown, the Prophet Muhammed said that even in battle, do not kill an enemy in anger, or make them suffer, as you yourself will be punished for it. So, like I said. This isn't Sharia law. And killing someone over burning the Quran is a joke. If it was handled correctly, Sharia law would have put him in jail (yes, it's bad, but it's a hell of a lot better than being beaten to death). It's not the place of your average Muslim to take matters into his own hands. It's not his place to make someone else suffer. Like I said, this is just mob hivemind in play. Uneducated people banding together and fuelling their hatred over such a trivial thing, just because they think it's the right and religious thing to do. It isn't right. The problem with religion is that so many uneducated people (since it is so easily believed for someone uneducated to "devoutly" follow the religion) make up the main bulk of the religious demographic. Most of them tend not to read their own religious texts (whichever religion they're from) and tend to take matters into their own hands and handle the situation wrong. So many of these situations happen as a direct result of ignorance and religious fervour (or what they [I]think[/I] is religious fervour). If the vast majority of Muslims read their Holy Book, then you wouldn't have this mindless killing. The fact of the matter is, barely anyone does, and instead just blindly follows what they believe to be the religious ideal.[/QUOTE] Ah right, I was just under the idea that the Islamic extreme belief is more under the idea of retribution on criminals, not too sure why I thought that. However, thanks for clearing that up for me, like I said I wasn't completely sure if that was the case or not. :)

It's all good, buddy. A lot of religion nowadays (especially Islam) is represented by the extremist nutjobs, sadly.

[QUOTE=Mingebox;38940196]Can you explain how moral objectivity is harmful without using subjective morals?[/QUOTE] Heat can damage paper; it can be burnt. Is that subjective? No. Society/civilisation has not always existed and will likely not exist forever, how much value you think is inherit in society is subjective, the fact that it is possible to damage it is objective. Civilisation can be defined as "the social process whereby societies achieve an advanced stage of development and organization". Moral objectivity can slow or even entirely halt this process as moral objectivity encourages dogmatic belief in concepts without evidence and is therefore in fundamental opposition to the scientific process, which allows free thought and the question of existing social norms etc. which would facilitate the advance of civilisation. You may subjectively think that civilisation is valueless or meaningless but that does to mean it is incapable of being damaged.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;38939694]Civilisation is in the eye of the beholder; they see the burning of scared texts going unpunished as uncivilised.[/QUOTE] Such a buzzkill when I have to read post-modernist bullshit like this.

[QUOTE=loopoo;38943362]It's all good, buddy. A lot of religion nowadays (especially Islam) is represented by the extremist nutjobs, sadly.[/QUOTE] Having been to the local Mosque plenty of times, Islam is full of wonderful people who mean absolutely no harm. Extremists are the problem, never the believers.