Ukrainian nationalists and separatists celebrate ceasefire by shelling each other - Polidicks

[img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80992000/jpg/_80992586_80990873.jpg[/img] [I]Ukrainian troops rumbled towards the town of Debaltseve on Friday where fighting continues to rage[/I] [img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80997000/jpg/_80997937_80995411.jpg[/img] [I]A rocket killed a young child near a school in Artemivsk, a government-held town near Debaltseve[/I] [img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80997000/jpg/_80997936_80995407.jpg[/img] [I]President Poroshenko said there was "a long way to go to peace" while visiting a training base on Friday[/I] [img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80992000/jpg/_80992587_80990881.jpg[/img] [I]Women embrace as they wait for a bus, carrying evacuees to Russia, to leave Donetsk[/I] [quote=bbcnews] [B]Intense fighting has been reported in eastern Ukraine, a day after a peace deal was reached in Minsk.[/B] The fiercest battles were over control of the town of Debaltseve, a strategic town in between rebel-held areas. The group responsible for monitoring the ceasefire, due to start at midnight on Saturday, says there is still "quite serious live fire" in several areas. European leaders have warned Russia that it faces additional sanctions if the Minsk agreement is not respected. BBC journalists in Donetsk heard new shelling on Friday morning while Russian TV said Luhansk also came under bombardment overnight. But Ukraine's army said the most ferocious fighting centred on Debaltseve, a railway junction where rebels have besieged government troops in a last-ditch effort to win the town. On Friday, the Ukrainian military said eleven soldiers had died and 40 more wounded in the previous 24 hours, while rebels said seven civilians had been killed. Earlier, two more people died when rebels shelled a cafe in Shchastya, near Luhansk, according to the head of the Kiev-controlled regional administration. A young child was also reported to have been killed when a rocket landed near a school in Artemivsk, a large government-held town near Debaltseve. The new clashes came amid wider doubts about the peace deal agreed following marathon negotiations between the leaders of Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France. [/quote] [img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80980000/gif/_80980240_ukraine_ceasefire_lines_12.02.2015_624map.gif[/img] [B]Ukraine conflict[/B] The human cost 5,486 people killed since conflict began in April 2014 12,972 wounded across eastern Ukraine 5.2 million people estimated to be living in conflict areas 978,482 internally displaced people within Ukraine, including 119,832 children [I]United Nations report, 6 February Note: UN Human Rights Mission in Ukraine and the WHO believe actual death toll is considerably higher[/I] [url="http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31449981"]more in source[/url]

Its like a mini ww1 Everyone kept fighting over pointless ground till the minute of the truce and everyone fell back to the official lines

No surprises here...

If it makes anyone feel better, Ukrainian troops managed to push the rebels back. Their territory atm is less than what they had at the start of 2015

[QUOTE=Swineflu;47134809]If it makes anyone feel better, Ukrainian troops managed to push the rebels back. Their territory atm is less than what they had at the start of 2015[/QUOTE] Or [Quote=Somebody else on internet] If it makes anyone feel better, Rebels managed to push the Ukrainian troops back. Their territory atm is less than what they had at the start of 2015[/quote] Cause, how can you check for sure? Sources from both sides who want to show their accomplishment rather than admit any fallbacks? Seriously you can dumb this as much as you want but taking info on internet for granted won't change for example a fact that before cease fire on 15th will be annouced there is probably going ot be a lot of dead ukranian soldiers at Debaltsevo since their command denies incircling of troops. And that's a huge chunk on map you can see. Soo there is really no "if that make you feel better". Ukraine might have moved through Mariupol direction, but they fucked up on other parts of front. It's a bloody draw at this moment with both parties equally exhaused yet pressing on. That should be stopped without any comparison to "who wins more". Cause every "push" worth's civilian lives.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;47135133]Or Cause, how can you check for sure? Sources from both sides who want to show their accomplishment rather than admit any fallbacks? Seriously you can dumb this as much as you want but taking info on internet for granted won't change for example a fact that before cease fire on 15th will be annouced there is probably going ot be a lot of dead ukranian soldiers at Debaltsevo since their command denies incircling of troops. And that's a huge chunk on map you can see. Soo there is really no "if that make you feel better". Ukraine might have moved through Mariupol direction, but they fucked up on other parts of front. It's a bloody draw at this moment with both parties equally exhaused yet pressing on. That should be stopped without any comparison to "who wins more". Cause every "push" worth's civilian lives.[/QUOTE] Instead of saying, "Well no you're wrong" why don't you bring your own evidence proving so?

[QUOTE=karimatrix;47135133]Or Cause, how can you check for sure? Sources from both sides who want to show their accomplishment rather than admit any fallbacks? Seriously you can dumb this as much as you want but taking info on internet for granted won't change for example a fact that before cease fire on 15th will be annouced there is probably going ot be a lot of dead ukranian soldiers at Debaltsevo since their command denies incircling of troops. And that's a huge chunk on map you can see. Soo there is really no "if that make you feel better". Ukraine might have moved through Mariupol direction, but they fucked up on other parts of front. It's a bloody draw at this moment with both parties equally exhaused yet pressing on. That should be stopped without any comparison to "who wins more". Cause every "push" worth's civilian lives.[/QUOTE] Dunno why I'm even bothering to argue with a Russian, but here's the proof you lot always ask for whenever anything gets said about this whole conflict [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/pZTwEfp.jpg?1[/IMG] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/PVkuq0C.jpg?1[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Swineflu;47135396]Dunno why I'm even bothering to argue with a Russian, but here's the proof you lot always ask for whenever anything gets said about this whole conflict [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/pZTwEfp.jpg?1[/IMG] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/PVkuq0C.jpg?1[/IMG][/QUOTE] Ummm. i think if you'd check source that is written on second image it clearly says "National Security and Defense Concil of Ukraine". Not to mention that if you look closely, both maps pretty much show same whole picture. [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47135350]Instead of saying, "Well no you're wrong" why don't you bring your own evidence proving so?[/QUOTE] Soo you want me to post pictures from Russian sources to show advance of rebels? Alright. [t]http://novorossiya.name/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/33566_original.jpg[/t] [t]http://novosteman.ru/sites/default/files/map/karta_boevyh_deystviy_dragon-first_1-2_fevralya.jpg[/t] Goodl luck pin pointing pixels to compare maps from warzone to proove if any side got more soil since january. And here's a whoooole site dedicated to that. [url]http://militarymaps.info/[/url]

[QUOTE=karimatrix;47135449]Ummm. i think if you'd check source that is written on second image it clearly says "National Security and Defense Concil of Ukraine". Not to mention that if you look closely, both maps pretty much show same whole picture. Soo you want me to post pictures from Russian sources to show advance of rebels? Alright. Here's a whoooole site dedicated to that. [url]http://militarymaps.info/[/url][/QUOTE] pretty much look at liveuamap.com and militarymaps.info and the truth is somewhere in the middle

[QUOTE=Turing;47135469]pretty much look at liveuamap.com and militarymaps.info and the truth is somewhere in the middle[/QUOTE] That's the point. Ukranians advacning from Mariupol but rebels pushed them out from airport and enclosing areas, also there is fuckton of Ukranian soldiers incircled. I'd say no side is "wininng" at this moment. Everybody loses.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;47135449] Soo you want me to post pictures from Russian sources to show advance of rebels? Alright. [/QUOTE] I can't read Russian

I don't see this lasting, you don't just stop a conflict like this and say "okay guys no more". Everyone is armed and everyone is ready to fight. Whenever either side is interviewed no one is for a ceasefire or peace they all want to fuck the other guy up.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;47135449]Ummm. i think if you'd check source that is written on second image it clearly says "National Security and Defense Concil of Ukraine". Not to mention that if you look closely, both maps pretty much show same whole picture. Soo you want me to post pictures from Russian sources to show advance of rebels? Alright. [t]http://novorossiya.name/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/33566_original.jpg[/t] [t]http://novosteman.ru/sites/default/files/map/karta_boevyh_deystviy_dragon-first_1-2_fevralya.jpg[/t] Goodl luck pin pointing pixels to compare maps from warzone to proove if any side got more soil since january. And here's a whoooole site dedicated to that. [url]http://militarymaps.info/[/url][/QUOTE] "that's not from the russian government so why would you trust it" Basically what you're saying.

And there's no need to gang up on the Russian, he is right no one is winning by any means.

[QUOTE=Aman;47135526]I don't see this lasting, you don't just stop a conflict like this and say "okay guys no more". Everyone is armed and everyone is ready to fight. Whenever either side is interviewed no one is for a ceasefire or peace they all want to fuck the other guy up.[/QUOTE] Yup. I'd say the best solution would be to deploy UN troops in proposed buffer zone - OSCE have no resources to "prevent" further fights, just observing them. [editline]14th February 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47135545]"that's not from the russian government so why would you trust it" Basically what you're saying.[/QUOTE] No, what i am saying that if "That's not from UN or OSCE, it's either from Ukraine or Rebels or Internet detectives, soo why would you trust a jpeg file on web at depicting situation of warzone". [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47135519]I can't read Russian[/QUOTE] Don't worry, colors in map i attached are recognised on all languages.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;47135556] Don't worry, colors in map i attached are recognised on all languages.[/QUOTE] Colors tell a big part, but I have no idea what I'm missing with the language.

[QUOTE=Aman;47135548]And there's no need to gang up on the Russian, he is right no one is winning by any means.[/QUOTE] Yeah, it's just sad that people "wish" for some things soo hard they ready to accept even bias source to reinforce their believes. And to cut crap replies - yes, i aknowledge that we got such big problem in Russia aswell. [editline]14th February 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47135646]Colors tell a big part, but I have no idea what I'm missing with the language.[/QUOTE] Nothing but definition of dots on map. Anyhow, you missed entire point why i posted that in a first place. You asked me to disproove info poster presented by backing them with images based on [B]ukranian goverment sources[/B] soo i just posted images from[B] rebel and russian sources[/B] who have same amount of creditability. Cause there is no point in presenting bias source to claim some side is "winning more territory". And there is no point for pulling out "logical fallacity" bullshit. There is such thing as common sence about accouting and understanding of reasons why each side presents their point of view more plausible to their audience. [I]- Hey Grisha! Ukranians are wining! - Really? who said that? -Well, Ukranian goverment ofocourse! - Are you sure they can be trusted? - Absolutelly! It's not like they have record of mishaps in military command and recon, nor do they get pressured to report only positive news to bolster people's moral and ensure next mobilisation won't fail! They're just sharing truth, man![/I] Soo to make it short. No matter how much somebody might wish and try hard, this front situation as it is is a [B]stalemate[/B], and a deadly one. And no boxes is changing that.

both sides are full of shit and have done bad things really I don't see why some people think that ukrainian sources are more credible than rebel/russian sources when they're both equally full of crap

[QUOTE=Araknid;47135823]both sides are full of shit and have bad things really I don't see why some people think that ukrainian sources are more credible than rebel/russian sources when they're both equally full of crap[/QUOTE] cause throught out coverage of this conflict west media was less than open about amount of damage ukranian forces done to donbass while attempting to "liberate" it. And because rebels got unofficial support from russia means ukranian army can shell civilian targets and occasionally leave their troops to be cannon fodder or get entire nationalist batalions refusing direct orders from kiev - cause since Russia is a "big bad", whatever kiev does or not, they are "the good ones".

It's a race to try and capture/defend Mariupol+Debalsteve by the 15th.

What would they gain by lie-ing about which areas they control anyways? Isn't this kind of crap very easy to confirm?

[QUOTE=WhyNott;47136087]What would they gain by lie-ing about which areas they control anyways? Isn't this kind of crap very easy to confirm?[/QUOTE] Ukrainian government always told lies that could be easily checked. So why stop with Poroshenko?

[QUOTE=DoktorAkcel;47136548]Ukrainian government always told lies that could be easily checked. So why stop with Poroshenko?[/QUOTE] nope russia has never lied before *cough* [url]http://aco.nato.int/resources/3/images/2014/russia/ukraine_aug/image1.jpg[/url] *cough* [editline]13th February 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=karimatrix;47135920]cause throught out coverage of this conflict west media was less than open about amount of damage ukranian forces done to donbass while attempting to "liberate" it. And because rebels got unofficial support from russia means ukranian army can shell civilian targets and occasionally leave their troops to be cannon fodder or get entire nationalist batalions refusing direct orders from kiev - cause since Russia is a "big bad", whatever kiev does or not, they are "the good ones".[/QUOTE] Probably because Russia is instigating a proxy war for territory that will magically be pulled in with a 145% voter approval while denying any connections to it completely. If the US was suddenly shoving their equipment and special ops soldiers into a European country to "support their citizens", people everywhere would be up in arms too.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;47135920]cause throught out coverage of this conflict west media was less than open about amount of damage ukranian forces done to donbass while attempting to "liberate" it. And because rebels got unofficial support from russia means ukranian army can shell civilian targets and occasionally leave their troops to be cannon fodder or get entire nationalist batalions refusing direct orders from kiev - cause since Russia is a "big bad", whatever kiev does or not, they are "the good ones".[/QUOTE] Why are you acting like the rebels don't shell civilians too?

Both sides have shelled civilians, mainly because everyone uses highly inaccurate rocket artillery... Anyway, I'm not surprised. The separatists will use this to regain and rearm, and groups like Right Sector will shell them because they don't give a shit.

Both sides are full of shit this ceasefire isn't going to last. The government has an offensive in the Mariupol region and the rebels are taking Debaltseve. Why stop now? They still hate each other.

There was an article on BBC, it literally just sickened me. Ukraine is basically a testing ground for Russia's new military assets, and now they're fully modernized. Putin is basically testing his new military to combat NATO, because he's apparently anticipating a 'NATO' invasion or something like that. Along with this, there was a poll saying 81% of Russians back Putin's actions with Ukraine. That's scary as fuck for the Western nations. Source: [URL]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31146595[/URL]

[QUOTE=karimatrix;47135920]cause throught out coverage of this conflict west media was less than open about amount of damage ukranian forces done to donbass while attempting to "liberate" it. And because rebels got unofficial support from russia means ukranian army can shell civilian targets and occasionally leave their troops to be cannon fodder or get entire nationalist batalions refusing direct orders from kiev - cause since Russia is a "big bad", whatever kiev does or not, they are "the good ones".[/QUOTE] They wouldn't have to invade the east if your government didn't fuck the country over in the first place.

[QUOTE=puppy156;47137671]There was an article on BBC, it literally just sickened me. Ukraine is basically a testing ground for Russia's new military assets, and now they're fully modernized. Putin is basically testing his new military to combat NATO, because he's apparently anticipating a 'NATO' invasion or something like that. Along with this, there was a poll saying 81% of Russians back Putin's actions with Ukraine. That's scary as fuck for the Western nations. Source: [URL]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31146595[/URL][/QUOTE] Uuuh, bbc reaching fox news level of nonsense here.

[QUOTE=ImperialGuard;47137688]They wouldn't have to invade the east if your government didn't fuck the country over in the first place.[/QUOTE] Ukrainian army invaded right after DNR formation, which was long before Russia intervention.