It's a good example of what we can achieve through cooperating together instead of competing for the sake of competing and prick waving.
[QUOTE=CheesyTits;40961920]It's a good example of what we can achieve through cooperating together instead of competing for the sake of competing and prick waving.[/QUOTE]
It can only work on local levels, not on the scale of large nations. It probably couldn't even work on a city wide level.
[QUOTE=CheesyTits;40961920]It's a good example of what we can achieve through cooperating together instead of competing for the sake of competing and prick waving.[/QUOTE]
What's wrong with competing for the sake of competition?
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;40962126]It can only work on local levels, not on the scale of large nations. It probably couldn't even work on a city wide level.[/QUOTE]
I think it could if it was organised properly through federations and the like. I'm not saying I have the answers or that it would be easy. Some pretty big changes would have to happen in the way things are run and structured now from the top down so it was able to become more like from the bottom up.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;40962161]What's wrong with competing for the sake of competition?[/QUOTE]
While competition can sometimes result in innovation we can achieve so much more by working together instead.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;40962126]It can only work on local levels, not on the scale of large nations. [B]It probably couldn't even work on a city wide level[/B].[/QUOTE]
Collectivization worked quite well for the Spanish Anarcho-Syndicalists throughout the Spanish Civil War.
[QUOTE]Much of Spain's economy was put under worker control; in anarchist strongholds like Catalonia, the figure was as high as 75%, but lower in areas with heavy socialist influence. Factories were run through worker committees, agrarian areas became collectivized and run as libertarian communes. Even places like hotels, barber shops, and restaurants were collectivized and managed by their workers.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]The trade unions commandeered cars and trucks to transport members of the newly formed workers’ militias; they formed ambulance services and worker-run hospitals. Communal kitchens and transportation centers were organized. In the cities, workers took over factories and placed them under workers’ control. They elected representatives to oversee production and coordinate work in the shops.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]In the countryside, peasants took control of the land, redistributing large estates and, in many places, collectivizing the land and setting up communes. An anarchist in the town of Membrilla, described their local commune:
On July 22, the big landowners were expropriated, small property was liquidated, and all the land passed into the hands of the commune....
The local treasury was empty. Among private individuals the sum of thirty thousand pesetas in all was found and seized. All the food, the clothing, the tools, etc., were distributed equitably along the population. Money was abolished, labor was collectivized, property was taken over by the community, and the distribution of consumer goods was socialized....
Three liters of wine are distributed to every person per week. Rent, electricity, water, medical attention and medicines are free.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=George Orwell]I had dropped more or less by chance into the only community of any size in Western Europe where political consciousness and disbelief in capitalism were more normal than their opposites. Up here in Aragon one was among tens of thousands of people, mainly though not entirely of working-class origin, all living at the same level and mingling on terms of equality. In theory it was perfect equality, and even in practice it was not far from it. There is a sense in which it would be true to say that one was experiencing a foretaste of Socialism, by which I mean that the prevailing mental atmosphere was that of Socialism. Many of the normal motives of civilized life—snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc.--had simply ceased to exist. The ordinary class-division of society had disappeared to an extent that is almost unthinkable in the money-tainted air of England; there was no one there except the peasants and ourselves, and no one owned anyone else as his master.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=George Orwell]It was the first time I had ever been in a town where the working class was in the saddle. Practically every building of any size had been seized by the workers and was draped with red flags or with the red and black flag of the Anarchists; every wall was scrawled with the hammer and sickle and with the initials of the revolutionary parties; almost every church had been gutted and its images burnt. Churches here and there were being systematically demolished by gangs of workmen. Every shop and café had an inscription saying that it had been collectivised; even the bootblacks had been collectivised and their boxes painted red and black. Waiters and shop-walkers looked you in the face and treated you as an equal. Servile and even ceremonial forms of speech had temporarily disappeared. Nobody said Señor or Don or even Usted; everyone called everyone else Comrade and Thou, and even said Salud! instead of Buenos dias.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention all of the Tribes and Third World Communities that currently practice Primitive Communism.
Our society is so bipolar when it comes to Social idealism it's actual a hypocrisy.
On one hand we fantasize this kind of lifestyle next to an idea of fulfillment, yet we don't pursue it, we don't pursue the simple life. We keep driving ourselves to "over-development" and capitalism, and we still prefer to fullfill our needs by living in big cities, studying in universities and becoming consuming technocrats who don't know any better than to buy the next gen iPod in search of immediate fulfillment.
I really hope people see that this kind of lifestyle is possible and realize that we don't need much of the stuff we take for granted everyday.
Although I don't feel that this kind of lifestyle is compatible with big city life or that it has has a direct connection to communism, or shouldn't be associated with any form of political propaganda, and I don't know how much does this cost to the state of spain, I must say I'm shocked.
However this isn't an isolated case. And it doesn't really inserts itself in "self sufficient communities" since it only works as long as there's taxpayer's money being injected in the Mayor's office.
More and more people are currently adopting self sufficient lifestyle without any association to political views, just a full grown sense of community and righteous self sufficiency.
Being a neighbor of Spain, I can only show a REAL self sufficient community here in Portugal that lives by principles of community, without political populism and the usual demagogy of political parties attached.
I present you the Tamera project:
[URL]http://www.tamera.org/index.html[/URL]
You can actually join in on this project either to volunteer and to live there with the community. Either way living there implies helping out the community.
Here's a video:
[video=youtube;rdMXiK7BKxA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdMXiK7BKxA[/video]
There's lots of self-sufficiency things going on in Greece at the moment with their economic troubles too. In some places they've made their own worker-operated supply chain and self-manage communities distributing food for free as required and such.
Also, having a closer look on the video, I haven't finished yet.
This mentality sickens me so much. (I refer to the mayor of that town).
If I didn't know how the political scene works in Portugal and Spain I'd be surprised but that communist utopia actually doesn't work. It's just that people feel content as long as they get rights and things for free. It's called hypocrisy and there is nothing more demagogic and hypocrite than communist parties in the Iberic Peninsula, I'm afraid.
I mean, Spain is in recession and money is inserted in the Municipalities via the State Budget. However, this is only possible as long as this "communist dream" remains only an exception and as long as there's money being injected in the Mayor's office.
This would never work if everyone decided to live like this, because it implies taxpayer money being invested so a few can have cheaper homes and cheaper everything. And Spain IS in recession and it isn't properly swimming on Oil or something.
So yeah, this actually costs a great deal to the state and will cost even more as soon as more people start moving in. Specially because they don't produce as much as they spend. They actually spend even more than they make. and that ISN'T self sufficiency.
So basically this only works as long as the rest of Spain's tax payers pay for it. And nothing justified the pillage of supermarkets. That Mayor should be in jail and tried for bad management.
this is nothing but a politician's scheme trying to make its own climb in power inside the party thanks to gullible idiots who actually buy his demagogy and populism.
He is nothing. And that community is far from self sufficient since it's highly dependent of the state.
That video is a load of bullshit. If you want self sufficient communities then try Tamera or the ones in Greece who actually live by themselves. Don't jump in on this bullshit.
Yeah what you say is certainly applicable in this situation.
The Greek movements I've read about seem far more autonomous and anarchistic and don't appear to rely on taxes. I think New Internationalist magazine was one of the main places I read about them: [url]http://newint.org/features/2013/01/01/greece-potato-movement/[/url]
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40970771]
I mean, Spain is in recession and money is inserted in the Municipalities via the State Budget. However, this is only possible as long as this "communist dream" remains only an exception and as long as there's money being injected in the Mayor's office. [/QUOTE]
No-one in the video claims that the Village is a "Communist dream" or that they seek to create such a thing, indeed the only reference to communism in the video is some graffiti on a wall.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40970771]
And nothing justified the pillage of supermarkets. That Mayor should be in jail and tried for bad management.[/QUOTE]
It would be incredibly immoral for the Community to not pillage the supermarket. If the Community has people going hungry in it - why should they be denied food just because they don't happen to have money?
Really the only problem i have with the incident is that they didn't also take the money from the Supermarkets safe and tills so that it could be distributed amongst the local poor.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40970771]
this is nothing but a politician's scheme trying to make its own climb in power inside the party thanks to gullible idiots who actually buy his demagogy and populism.[/QUOTE]
From what was displayed in the video, He seems like one of the few politicians that's actively trying to improve the quality of life for the Proletariat.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40970771]
And that community is far from self sufficient since it's highly dependent of the state.[/QUOTE]
I don't recall anyone in the video claim that the community is trying to be self-sufficient, only that the town is trying to make "mortgages a thing of the past" and that they have a Communal farm.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40970771]
That video is a load of bullshit. If you want self sufficient communities then try Tamera or the ones in Greece who actually live by themselves. Don't jump in on this bullshit.[/QUOTE]
The real bullshit is anarchic self-sufficient communities. Rather then taking up arms and trying to fight the capitalistic system they live under, they instead choose to close their eyes, plug their ears and live in their own slice of fantasy. Honestly i find it rather sickening.
That comment is so much ridiculous in so many ways I really don't know what to say.
By your avatar and your speech you're clearly entrenched in that bullshit and you're so blind with what you read about the actions of communists in the Iberic peninsula that I could be typing here for hours on how biased and false they are compared to reality and in the eyes of population here. I'm not even going there.
You clearly don't know shit about the reality behind communist parties here and how municipalities keep pulling this kind of shit for votes and support for the next elections.
And yes, the mayor claims that his community is self sufficient and claims it as a "solution". Not in the video but actively in the Spanish political scene. Also, yes, in the video he claims that his communist point of view is a solution. However it's payed with capitalists taxpayer money - Hypocrisy.
And nobody there is starving to death so yes, pillaging a supermarket - an infrastructure that actually employs workers, gives them a salary so they can put food on the table is as entitled to sell his product as anyone else since it spends money collecting it. They actually employ people and feed people with food and money. And I don't think demagogy ever puts food on people's table.
So yeah, blablabla lets keep bashing down whoever speaks against communism. It is what it is.
And not everyone's interested in living by communist standards. What's sickening is people like you that think that in order to live an isolated and alternative life you have to fight the system.
If you think Tamera or other apolitical self sufficient communities that actively fight for environment, food and energetic alternative issues is bullshit without depending on a state that represents it's exact opposite, then you're clearly batshit insane.
They clearly do more for people everyday than your red political bullshit ever did for mankind.
I rest my case.
People who say communism doesnt work are ridiculous.
People who say communism will work on a global scale are also ridiculous.
We had a very fierce regime here in Portugal (and spain too) that ended in the 70s. It was mainly contested by the communist parties and by other independent figures that lately stepped in the political scene.
However, the preaching of equal rights for everyone was in fact a pretext in many ways for the communist party to pillage, murder, rape and take over key industries that were actually bolstering the economy, after the revolution.
I'm totally sensible to the fact that those same industries exploited workers, and some milk producers in the south almost had their workers living as if they were slaves. But that doesn't justify what followed.
However, in the majority of cases workers had housing and shelter and would migrate all the way from the north to the south just so they could get a chance to work and send some money to their families.
After the revolution the people and the non-working class, took opportunity and proceeded to pillaged, burned, and destroyed the fields in the so called "liberation". They literally took over the farms from the families that had founded them for centuries with their sweat blood and tears by pillaging the houses, occupying the families houses and not producing in the meantime, leaving crops and cattle to die of starvation. There are hundreds of testimonies from families and women raped while families were torn apart during these rampages of rape and murder (yes, they actually killed members of the families that refused to leave their homes).
So much that years later the state acknowledged this and returned many of the properties to it's rightful owners. However, many of them, who had lost everything didn't have the means to start the crops and cattle all over again and were forced to sell their farms for money.
Quickly revolution, for many people turned into an excuse for many opportunistic ascensions to power and whoever stood against it was branded as a fascist and quickly forced to leave his job under threat of "an accident". My father was actually a victim of this kind of blackmail when he saw the factory where he worked being taking over by unions and unqualified workers who kicked the previous qualified staff out and led the factory to ruin.
Until today the communist Party in Portugal and Spain (it wasn't much different there) refuses to acknowledge the atrocities they did in the name of liberty.
They also still insist on keeping the same "pro-proletariat" speech and the same notions of "Boss - Evil entity who shits cash vs proletarian - Saint who sacrifices for the motherland", the same useless rhetoric, the same populism and demagogy spewed by arrivists who are nothing but clones of whoever's representing the party they're in at the time.
so yeah, there's how communism works in the Spanish/Portuguese political scene.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40975770]That comment is so much ridiculous in so many ways I really don't know what to say.[/QUOTE]
Well you don't attempt to refute my statements, that's quite clear.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40975770]By your avatar and your speech you're clearly entrenched in that bullshit.[/QUOTE]
How dare i support a ideology that's based on equality, empathy, justice and compassion.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40975770]You clearly don't know shit about the reality behind communist parties here and how municipalities keep pulling this kind of shit for votes and support for the next elections.[/QUOTE]
Communism is a revolutionary ideology. if a "Communist" Party is running for elections within the bourgeoisie system then they are not Communist at all - quite simple.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40975770]in the video he claims that his communist point of view is a solution. However it's payed with capitalists taxpayer money - Hypocrisy.[/QUOTE]
* The Mayor is not a Communist as he is a member of a bourgeois government.
* The town has only implemented small scale collectivization, collectivization is not endemic to Communism nor is it inherently communistic.
* As the town has not attempted to remove the bourgeoisie, remove or limit the use of currency or even something as basic as setting up a workers council, it has not done anything inherently Communistic.
* As neither the Town itself or the Mayor has done anything inherently Communistic - there is no hypocrisy.
* Not all taxpayers are capitalists - I'm a Communist and i pay tax.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40975770]And nobody there is starving to death so yes, pillaging a supermarket - an infrastructure that actually employs workers, gives them a salary so they can put food on the table is as entitled to sell his product as anyone else since it spends money collecting it. They actually employ people and feed people with food and money. And I don't think demagogy ever puts food on people's table.[/QUOTE]
*As there are more poor people in any given urban center then the amount employed at a supermarket, freely distributing food to the poor would positively effect the quality of life of more people then the amount of people that would be negativity affected.
*Withholding food from people due to something as arbitrary as not having enough of a given currency is monstrous.
* The Greed, exploitation and ignorance that is attached to any "profit motive" based system takes food off of peoples plates.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40975770]So yeah, blablabla lets keep bashing down whoever speaks against communism. It is what it is.[/QUOTE]
Well so far you have yet to demonstrate that you even know what communism is.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40975770]And not everyone's interested in living by communist standards.[/QUOTE]
Many serfs in Europe were not interested in living in a capitalist society - how ever they adapted just fine to it over time. A transition from a capitalistic society to a communist one would be far easier on the people then that of feudalism to capitalism.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40975770]What's sickening is people like you that think that in order to live an isolated and alternative life you have to fight the system.[/QUOTE]
You seem you misunderstand my argument. I don't want anti-capitalist allies such as anarchists living in isolation [B]at all[/B]. I want them fight to change the system nation wide.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40975770]If you think Tamera or other apolitical self sufficient communities that actively fight for environment, food and energetic alternative issues is bullshit then you're clearly batshit insane.[/QUOTE]
The thing is that they are not "fighting" at all. The absolute most you could say that they are doing is "passive campaigning" however i would argue that in reality there just removing themselves from society while accomplishing shit-all.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40975770]They clearly do more for people everyday than your red political bullshit ever did for mankind.[/QUOTE]
[B][U]Things that Marxist-Leninism did for humanity:[/U][/B]
Fully industrialized western Russia in under 20 years.
Got the first satellite into space.
Got the first man into space.
Biggest contributor to the defeat of Fascism in Europe.
Achieved full equality for women in a number of traditionally patriarchal societys.
Placed the first permanent space station in earth orbit.
[B][U]Things that self-sufficient communities do for people everyday:[/U][/B]
Fool the people involved into thinking that they are somehow making a difference while in reality accomplishing nothing.
I'm just talking about the current communist reality here and you're just comparing the "best of communism" with the "worst of self sustained societies (?)".
I can also point out that Stalin did kill more jews and other racial minorities than Hitler, Che Guevara based his crusade for independence in murder and so on. the Massacre of tianamen and the creation of a colection of murderers and Monsters as political leaders the world as ever seen ( [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#Romania"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes[/URL] ) (There goes the communist good for mankind)... etc etc... Of course you will probably say that "this is not communism" and yadda yadda yadda, as it is usually typical of you guys, when in power and institunalized, to close your eyes to the barbarities you do in the name of X, Y and Z. Although I believe it's the man and not the idea that has the last say, I'm not discussing the best of versus the worst of because it's useless.
They do accomplish fulfillment and accomplish exactly what they aim which is encountering scientific and social alternatives to simple problems. The aim is not to make a stand against anything, only to live an alternative way of life without conflict. So it may be politically useless because it doesn't base itself on any political view but it isn't useless since it provides solutions regarding environment and sustainability and do not depend on the state to survive.
It's not the goal, it's not the aim to make a stand hence it's not useless. So thank god there are apolitical and non-party related initiatives such as apolitical independent communities . And please don't call it anarchical because Tamera is solely about peace where people are allowed to think freely and tasks are given according to the people who are managing it. So it allows all kinds of views but it isn't driven by politics.
So, as a proclaimed communist, I have a simple question for you then. What's your point on this? I mean, you're trying to refute every single phrase I say that conveys you, while ignoring the text as a whole to strategically avoid topics you're not keen on debating since you don't wanna. You're carefully selecting fragments of what I say to simply distort what I say while you keep going back and forth with your arguments. What's your stand here and what are you trying to say?
I mean, first you support the Mayor's initiative, now you deny his affiliation with communism saying that what he does and is is not communist. You're contradicting yourself.
What's your stand here exactly? Are you just trying to say how communist is best over everything and suddenly when someone criticizes your point of view you just throw it out of the boat saying it has nothing to do with what you represent?
Do you really think that people are really buying this argument in which you don't base yourself in any knowlege of what these communities are all about?
[QUOTE][B]Things that self-sufficient communities do for people everyday:[/B]
Fool the people involved into thinking that they are somehow making a difference while in reality accomplishing nothing.[/QUOTE]
You don't know what you're talking about. Tamera has actually contributed to the environment, clean safe energy, sustainability and general issues people in the big cities depend upon. How is that useless?
It involves alternative ways of education, provides ample opportunities to Portuguese writers to publish their own books.
It also provides it's own energy, and it's own independence towards supermarkets which is a major stand in denying the continuation of Portugal's great energetic dependence.
Tamera is also backed by the Findhorn Foundation: go read: [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Findhorn_Foundation[/URL]
So what's so useless about Tamera when the rest of the political scene in Portugal, left AND right is nothing but a bunch of children who actually produce nothing?
All I'm saying is that you don't know shit about the reality of workforce in Spain and Portugal and you're speaking like you know it all, and that the actual modern communist reality is a constant equal to the preconcept you have planted in your head. It's not.
On a last note, you have democracy implemented in Spain Thanks to King Juan Carlos who intervened when Antonio Tejero tried a coup d'etat. In Portugal as much as the majority of the opposing force of the regime was left winged, the communists tried a coup d'etat which was counter couped by the Socialist Party led by Mario Soares. How did the communists ever had a direct influence other than pure oportunism in rising to power I don't know, but if they ever did do any contribution to the good of the nation instead of the interests of the USSR thaen I'll be damned.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806][B]I'm just talking about the current communist reality here[/B] and you're just comparing the "best of communism" with the "worst of capitalism".[/QUOTE]
This is what you said.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]your red political bullshit ever [B]did for mankind[/B].[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]I can also point out that Stalin did kill more jews and other racial minorities than Hitler[/QUOTE]
Most sources Place the Holocaust death toll between [B]6 and 11 million.[/B]
The most deaths that can be attached to Stalin is [B]2 million[/B] and these are mostly just death orders for counter revolutionarys, violent criminals and enemys of the state (Trotsky and the like).
The reason such larger numbers get attached to Stalin is due to people attributing every single death from the feminines that happened in the Soviet Union while Stalin was in power directly to him (this number is about 20 - 26 million).
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]Che Guevara based his crusade for independence in murder and so on.[/QUOTE]
You can call fighting for freedom "murder" all that you want but it wont change all the good that he helped achieve. In-spite of him being a revisionist.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]the Massacre of Tienanmen etc[/QUOTE]
China was Socialist from 1949 - 1976. After 1976 China became State Capitalist and as such not Communist.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]Of course you will probably say that "this is not communism"[/QUOTE]
For a County to be Communist it needs to meet the following criteria:
* Stateless (no central government - all actions decided upon directly by the workers in workers councils).
* Classless (no bourgeoisie or petty bourgeoisie).
* Currency-less (While not a specific ideological requirement, in a Communist society there would be no use for any currency.
* Collectivized Industry and Agriculture.
For a Person to be a Communist they need to meet the following criteria:
* Actively working towards building a revolutionary movement.
* Actively Fighting Fascism.
* Actively Fighting for the interests proletariat.
* Actively Fighting Revisionism.
* Aligned with a established Communist Tendency (Left Communism (umbrella term), Trotskyism and Marxist-Leninism(umbrella term)).
Try applying these criteria to past "Communist" states and people and you very quickly see just how rare Communism is.
[sp]There has never been a real Communist state only a few counties that were working towards the establishment of Communism[/sp]
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]as it is usually typical of you guys, when in power and institunalized, to close your eyes to the barbarities you do in the name of X, Y and Z.[/QUOTE]
While i wont deny that a number of poor decisions were made in the past, almost all of them come from personal failings of the individual(s) - not the ideology.
Also the First World War was started due to imperialism (the highest stage of capitalism) and fought by capitalist powers. Communism has a lot less blood on its hands.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]They do accomplish fulfillment and accomplish exactly what they aim which is encountering scientific and social alternatives to simple problems. The aim is not to make a stand against anything, only to live an alternative way of life without conflict. So it may be politically useless because it doesn't base itself on any political view but it isn't useless since it provides solutions regarding environment and sustainability and do not depend on the state to survive.
It's not the goal, it's not the aim to make a stand hence it's not useless. So thank god there are apolitical and non-party related initiatives such as apolitical independent communities.[/QUOTE]
If their "alternatives" require a group to divorce themselves society to be successful then these "alternatives" are useless.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]please don't call it anarchical because Tamera is solely about peace where people are allowed to think freely and tasks are given according to the people who are managing it. So it allows all kinds of views but it isn't driven by politics.[/QUOTE]
I never referred to "Tamera" as Anarchist, i was referring to actual Anarchist (the ideology) self-sustaining communitys.
While i still find "Tamera" and the like useless, they are not anywhere near as offensive as the various politically aligned communitys that have popped up over the years.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]So, as a proclaimed communist, I have a simple question for you then. What's your point on this?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]What's your stand here and what are you trying to say?[/QUOTE]
Really i am just trying to fight against disinformation. My first post in this thread was me trying to show that collectivization has worked quite well in the past.
With the shear number of lies floating around about Communism, i am just doing my part to demonstrate just how wrong Communism has been portrayed.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]I mean, you're trying to refute every single phrase I say that conveys you, while ignoring the text as a whole to strategically avoid topics you're not keen on debating since you don't wanna. You're carefully selecting fragments of what I say to simply distort what I say while you keep going back and forth with your arguments.[/QUOTE]
Not only is this the simplest way to address your arguments, but due to the fragmented nature in which present your arguments - i think this is the best overall way to respond.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]I mean, first you support the Mayor's initiative, now you deny his affiliation with communism saying that what he does and is is not communist. You're contradicting yourself.[/QUOTE]
Just because i support something or someone, it does not become Communist. I support North Korea however they have not been Communist since the 1950s, and my supporting them does not make them Communist.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]What's your stand here exactly? Are you just trying to say how communist is best over everything and suddenly when someone criticizes your point of view you just throw it out of the boat saying it has nothing to do with what you represent?[/QUOTE]
If something or someone does not fit into what is classified as Communism then that's really the end of it. Just because you want to claim that something or someone is communist when they are not will not change this.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]Do you really think that people are really buying this argument in which you don't base yourself in any knowlege of what these communities are all about?[/QUOTE]
Well the kind of useless communitys you seem intent on arguing about i have no real interest in, i was mostly talking about political Aligned communitys.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]You don't know what you're talking about. Tamera has actually contributed to the environment, clean safe energy, sustainability and general issues people in the big cities depend upon. How is that useless?[/QUOTE]
Because to achieve any of this they had to divorce themselves from society, in a urban setting none of these "alternatives" would bear any fruit.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]the rest of the political scene in Portugal, left AND right is nothing but a bunch of children who actually produce nothing?[/QUOTE]
That is a failing of your counties political system, it should tell you quite abit when "Tamera" only looks remotely useful when placed next to a failed political system.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806][B]All I'm saying is that you don't know shit about the reality of workforce in Spain and Portugal[/B] and you're speaking like you know it all[/QUOTE]
Quite fair, however while i am not intimately familiar with the state of your local proletariat i do know that they are horribly exploited by bourgeoisie - just like every other member of the proletariat around the world.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;40978806]and that the actual modern communist reality is a constant equal to the preconcept you have planted in your head. It's not.[/QUOTE]
I am personally sorry the failure of Communism to provide you and every other member of the proletariat with the workers paradise that you deserve - it should have been provided decades ago, however while the current landscape is populated by parties that are overtly revisionist and just serve to further sully Communism in the eyes of the public. Rest-assured that such parties are on their last legs for the most part and will soon be swept away, hopefully by Communist parties of the 21st century that have learnt from both the successes and failures of the past, and reject both Left Communism and Trotskyism and instead find allies in the Anarchists and most importantly the Syndicalists. Now while i cannot guarantee you that such parties will emerge. I can promise you that should i ever be given to opportunity to help in armed resistance against a bourgeois state i would happy give my life to help build the better world that both you and the greater proletariat deserve.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;40962126]It can only work on local levels, not on the scale of large nations. It probably couldn't even work on a city wide level.[/QUOTE]
It can work, and has worked in the past. Take the previously stated anarcho-communist territories in the Spanish Civil War or the Free Territory in Ukraine for example.
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory[/URL]
Actually, it would probably be best to move this discussion over to my Mass Debate thread.
[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1238730[/url]
[editline]11th June 2013[/editline]
Automerge please work
RAYHALO, I finally see your point of view. Well, although I do not share your political points of view in matters of societies I was just trying to give you the impression of the demagogy that happens in the so called "left wing" parties over here. I mean, personally I don't mind witch regime I have implanted as long as there is Justice for all people. And I mean, at least Portugal's current regime would work out quite well if the Justice system would work properly, meaning that there wouldn't be holes in our laws that help out high class criminals and if Justice wouldn't take 5 to 10 years to act on corrupt people. Speaking of which our Social Democratic state is currently demanding that 5 public managers leave their jobs due to ruinous management and they refuse it claiming that they will wait for court's decision in order to do so. However they still play with taxpayer money to pay for their disasters and debts.
On the other hand I don't agree much with how left wing parties (and I don't know here if this actually has anything to do with communism itself) pressured the state to juridically favor workers over their employers.
For example, my father has a small concrete/demolitions company and as you may know construction is a sector in crisis in both Portugal and Spain, he struggles to survive as a business and to provide for my family, so the smallest expense can bring the company down dragging all the workers with it. What happens is there is 1 effective worker my dad can't fire because he's protected by law. He doesn't produce, he drives in the companies car everyday, disobeys direct orders and never presents results, costing more to the business than he ever produces. In Portugal you can only fire this man in the eyes of the law if you can prove in court that he really did something damaging to the company, which is very difficult to prove and leads companies to avoid turning their workers as effective since they are more difficult to fire. My father is at a crossroad here, he either fires the man and pays him a huge sum of money (that he currently doesn't have because that sum raises the more years a worker is employed (11 years in this case)), or he lets him stay while living at the expense of the company.
I don't know if communism ever predicts unproductive workers and what to do to them, however, just because my father is a CEO I also see him as a worker, and a good one I might add because my father's employees respect him very much.
But that's another story.
What I want you to understand is that in Portugal, Spain, and maybe some other latin countries around Europe politicians do nothing more than spew demagogy and populism that usually some people buy.
So, by my experience, whenever a politician here does something like this, it usually has a darker motive behind it, or things usually don't work out as well as they claim they do. This community presented in the video is one example of the sort.
On a last note. Speaking of Tamera, it might not be political but it coexists and adapts to all kinds of political regimes since it has the ability to provide for itself and ends up providing a big deal of fulfillment to people involved in it. But once again it doesn't serve as a tool for a political revolution. It would serve as a tool for a different lifestyle by providing consciousness about how we feel that we depend on big companies to provide us for commodities we can get on our own; and that I think might be a revolution in the making on it's own.
All I see in this thread are a bunch of unpatriotic godless pinko-sympathizing Communists.
Go back to Russia. Disgusting Reds.
People don't realize that self-sufficiency is economically impossible.
Only by having every single human interact in a decentralized system built around competing actors whereby their labour can be utilized to its fullest potential, will the human condition report increasing living standards.
[editline]11th June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=soccerskyman;40984256]It can work, and has worked in the past. Take the previously stated anarcho-communist territories in the Spanish Civil War or the Free Territory in Ukraine for example.
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory[/URL][/QUOTE]
Scissors crisis would have destroyed the Free Territory.
[editline]11th June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=RAYHALO;40982617]The most deaths that can be attached to Stalin is [B]2 million[/B] and these are mostly just death orders for counter revolutionarys, violent criminals and enemys of the state (Trotsky and the like).[/QUOTE]
This is outright fucking genocide denialism.
[editline]11th June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=RAYHALO;40977412][B][U]Things that Marxist-Leninism did for humanity:[/U][/B]
Fully industrialized western Russia in under 20 years.[/quote]
Bullshit.
[quote]Achieved full equality for women in a number of traditionally patriarchal societys.[/quote]
You have to be joking.
[quote][B][U]Things that self-sufficient communities do for people everyday:[/U][/B]
Fool the people involved into thinking that they are somehow making a difference while in reality accomplishing nothing.[/QUOTE]
This is true though.
Lets not turn this into a political shitstorm any more than we already have.
I think we all agree that this Spanish community is nothing but a fraud commanded by a demagogue politician taking advantage of the crisis to spew some populism int he hearts of the less educated people.
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