[quote]As if facing down violent Islamist fanatics isn’t enough, Muslim reformers now have to dodge attacks from the American left. Consider the Southern Poverty Law Center’s decision last week to brand two such reformers, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Britain’s Maajid Nawaz, as “anti-Muslim extremists.”
Founded in 1971 by civil-rights activists, the Montgomery, Alabama-based law center says it’s committed to “fighting hate and bigotry and to seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of our society.” That apparently doesn’t include civil rights in the Muslim world or among Muslims living in the U.S.[/quote]
[URL]http://www.wsj.com/articles/branding-moderates-as-anti-muslim-1477866475[/URL]
Despicable. Stop saying the regressive left doesn't exist people.
stupid ex muslims, dont you know that a white person who read some apologist articles from the Huffington Post knows more than you about Islam?
Isn't the SPLC widely known to be a joke?
Is there a non-paywall source.
As far as I can tell the organization misbranded one man? Yet the title makes it sound widespread.
SPLC's original article is available: [url]https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/field-guide-anti-muslim-extremists[/url]
Can't say anything about verity of these claims, but based on those alone calling them extremists is an big exaggeration. Basically points are that neither is a moderate nor wholly credible.
[QUOTE=Vlevs;51292181]SPLC's original article is available: [url]https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/field-guide-anti-muslim-extremists[/url]
Can't say anything about verity of these claims, but based on those alone calling them extremists is an big exaggeration. Basically points are that neither is a moderate nor wholly credible.[/QUOTE]
If Maajid Nawaz isn't a moderate then Muslims moderates don't exist on this earth and Islam is truly fucked.
I would also like to point out the that the SPLC used to be a major information point for the FBI.
The FBI now ignores everything that comes from the SPLC.
[QUOTE=Swilly;51292254]I would also like to point out the that the SPLC used to be a major information point for the FBI.
The FBI now ignores everything that comes from the SPLC.[/QUOTE]
The worst part about the SPLC mislabeling people and the Anti-Defamation League calling Pepe a Nazi symbol is that I can no longer trust any of the other groups/people they have labeled. Who knows how many of the others listed as anti-Muslims bigots or white nationalists are completely innocent?
Ayaan Hirsi Ali isn't even a Muslim and basically just tells atheists and far-righters what they want to hear about Islam. She constantly spews crap about how Muslim immigrants are going to take over Europe and impose sharia law. She was quoted by Brevik before he went on his massacre and she is always quoted by neo-conservative outlets as an expert on Islam despite her having no degrees in Islamic studies.
Here's a choice quote [QUOTE]"Violence is inherent in Islam – it's a destructive, nihilistic cult of death. It legitimates murder. The police may foil plots and freeze bank accounts in the short term, but the battle against terrorism will ultimately be lost unless we realise that it's not just with extremist elements within Islam, but the ideology of Islam itself....Islam is the new fascism"[/QUOTE]
Maajid Nawaz has no qualifications to be talking about Islam academically, yet he coauthored a book about Islam with Sam "Islam is a cult of death" Harris. I can hardly consider him a Muslim since he renounces the very basics of the faith by telling people to not accept the Quran as God's words. He was also caught drunkenly groping a stripper giving him a lap dance. Truly the best voice for Islam's future.
These people are only propped up as "reformers" and "moderates" by people who know absolutely nothing about Islam. Them being considered Anti-Muslim is irrelevant as no Muslims listen to them.
[QUOTE]Ayaan Hirsi Ali isn't even a Muslim and basically just tells atheists and far-righters what they want to hear about Islam.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Fayez;51292456]Maajid Nawaz has no qualifications to be talking about Islam academically, yet he coauthored a book about Islam with Sam "Islam is a cult of death" Harris.[/QUOTE]
I guess that there's a market for a far-right Dawkins-like figure.
[QUOTE=Fayez;51292456]Ayaan Hirsi Ali isn't even a Muslim and basically just tells atheists and far-righters what they want to hear about Islam. She constantly spews crap about how Muslim immigrants are going to take over Europe and impose sharia law. She was quoted by Brevik before he went on his massacre and she is always quoted by neo-conservative outlets as an expert on Islam despite her having no degrees in Islamic studies.
Here's a choice quote
Maajid Nawaz has no qualifications to be talking about Islam academically, yet he coauthored a book about Islam with Sam "Islam is a cult of death" Harris. I can hardly consider him a Muslim since he renounces the very basics of the faith by telling people to not accept the Quran as God's words. He was also caught drunkenly groping a stripper giving him a lap dance. Truly the best voice for Islam's future.
These people are only propped up as "reformers" and "moderates" by people who know absolutely nothing about Islam. Them being considered Anti-Muslim is irrelevant as no Muslims listen to them.[/QUOTE]
You seem to know a lot about the current state of Islam. Can I ask what islamic reformists I should be looking into?
[QUOTE=Fayez;51292456] He was also caught drunkenly groping a stripper giving him a lap dance. Truly the best voice for Islam's future.[/QUOTE]
Why does that matter in terms of his critiques?
Just sounds like you got some personal beef with both of them cause they ain't muslim enough.
[QUOTE=Fayez;51292456]Ayaan Hirsi Ali isn't even a Muslim and basically just tells atheists and far-righters what they want to hear about Islam. She constantly spews crap about how Muslim immigrants are going to take over Europe and impose sharia law. She was quoted by Brevik before he went on his massacre and she is always quoted by neo-conservative outlets as an expert on Islam despite her having no degrees in Islamic studies.
Here's a choice quote
Maajid Nawaz has no qualifications to be talking about Islam academically, yet he coauthored a book about Islam with Sam "Islam is a cult of death" Harris. I can hardly consider him a Muslim since he renounces the very basics of the faith by telling people to not accept the Quran as God's words. He was also caught drunkenly groping a stripper giving him a lap dance. Truly the best voice for Islam's future.
These people are only propped up as "reformers" and "moderates" by people who know absolutely nothing about Islam. Them being considered Anti-Muslim is irrelevant as no Muslims listen to them.[/QUOTE]
Have you got anything to back up your claim that No muslims listen to them?
[QUOTE=Tudd;51292562]Why does that matter in terms of his critiques?
Just sounds like you got some personal beef with both of them cause they ain't muslim enough.[/QUOTE]
Well, Ali isn't actually a Muslim and is outwardly an Atheist.
Nawaz is though, but he's a heretic to Mr. Fayez as he has a different interpretation of Islam to his and as such needs to get the heretic treatment of a beheading with a sword. Actually, Ali probably does too because she renounced her faith. Of course, he wouldn't do it himself. Instead, he would rather create a hitlist for terrorists in the form of the SPLC 'Anti-Muslim Extremist' List and send out terrorists to do it for him. For Progress! Make no mistake - this is what these kind of lists result in.
Equivalent critics of Christianity wouldn't be labelled in such a way. When the left insists we treat Islam with kiddie gloves, we hand the debate over to the real extremists (I, by the way, agree that Ali is excessive and mostly wrong in her criticisms of Islam - but she isn't an 'anti-Muslim extremist'). Stop protecting Islam specifically. Ali's debate points are weak (Nawaz's are much stronger though incorrect in many ways in my view too) but instead of actually engaging, you seem to favour killing them off, which is unfortunate.
[QUOTE]Nawaz has no qualifications to be talking about Islam academically, yet he coauthored a book about Islam with Sam "Islam is a cult of death" Harris.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you could look up the book, after which you will find it is a dialogue in which Nawaz does not entirely agree with Harris.
[url]https://www.amazon.co.uk/Islam-Future-Tolerance-Sam-Harris/dp/0674088700[/url]
Perhaps you could read it and enlighten yourself.
[QUOTE]He was also caught drunkenly groping a stripper giving him a lap dance. Truly the best voice for Islam's future.[/QUOTE]
Not an argument
[QUOTE]She was quoted by Brevik before he went on his massacre and she is always quoted by neo-conservative outlets as an expert on Islam despite her having no degrees in Islamic studies. [/QUOTE]
As a neoconservative, there are almost no 'neoconservative outlets' in existence. Pretty much there is the AEI, HJS and the Weekly Standard. Though I think you have a point that she is portrayed as an expert when she is a polemicist drawing on personal experience by many people.
[quote]He was also caught drunkenly groping a stripper giving him a lap dance. [/quote]
You had to have some Puritans grab some titties to finally get them to reform their outdated sex standards. Didn't invalidate those reformers. Why should it now?
[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;51292497]You seem to know a lot about the current state of Islam. Can I ask what islamic reformists I should be looking into?[/QUOTE]
Look at Islamic Modernism. Was decently large near the fall of the Ottoman Empire with people like Muhammad Abduh, who I consistently plug here as a phenomenal example of an academic Muslim miles more progressive than most modern-day Christians.
Modern examples of modernists include people like Javed Ahmad Ghamidi, an academic who promotes separating jurisprudence from sharia law, and who uses interpretation of Islamic texts to reach conclusions that mirror Western ideas about human rights without actually calling on those Western ideas. This isn't some random guy, either - he's a figure in Pakistani government and is a major popular voice for the Islamic intellectualist movement in Pakistan.
Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri is another Pakistani example, promoting a democratic government and lambasting terrorists for "hijacking" the concept of jihad. He founded a party in Pakistan dedicated to improving human rights and womens' rights in Pakistan and ensuring a democratic political system. He's an academic, politician, and professor, and while less theological/theoretical than other modernists, he's still a good example of a Muslim reformist. He redefines an "Islamic State" as a Muslim-majority country that respects the rights of all peoples, including women and minorities, promotes social welfare, and protects freedoms.
Plenty of other examples of influential modernists and reformists, too, especially in the West. Tariq Ramadan is a more controversial example, but he's still absolutely a reformist who promotes interpretive reading of the Qu'ran over literal reading and vilifies terrorism and capital punishment of any kind.
There's plenty of very progressive discussion happening in academia. Some of it moves into government. There's a lot - Islamic Modernism is my go-to example because Muhammad Abduh is a fucking fantastic dude, but there are many, many other intellectual Islamic academic movements that promote rationality and interpretive understanding of Islamic texts to varying degrees. The more that organized higher education takes root in Muslim countries, the more likely these ideas will spread throughout the educated population, the more popular they will become.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;51292670]Look at Islamic Modernism. Was decently large near the fall of the Ottoman Empire with people like Muhammad Abduh, who I consistently plug here as a phenomenal example of an academic Muslim miles more progressive than most modern-day Christians.
Modern examples of modernists include people like Javed Ahmad Ghamidi, an academic who promotes separating jurisprudence from sharia law, and who uses interpretation of Islamic texts to reach conclusions that mirror Western ideas about human rights without actually calling on those Western ideas. This isn't some random guy, either - he's a figure in Pakistani government and is a major popular voice for the Islamic intellectualist movement in Pakistan.
Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri is another Pakistani example, promoting a democratic government and lambasting terrorists for "hijacking" the concept of jihad. He founded a party in Pakistan dedicated to improving human rights and womens' rights in Pakistan and ensuring a democratic political system. He's an academic, politician, and professor, and while less theological/theoretical than other modernists, he's still a good example of a Muslim reformist. He redefines an "Islamic State" as a Muslim-majority country that respects the rights of all peoples, including women and minorities, promotes social welfare, and protects freedoms.
Plenty of other examples of influential modernists and reformists, too, especially in the West. Tariq Ramadan is a more controversial example, but he's still absolutely a reformist who promotes interpretive reading of the Qu'ran over literal reading and vilifies terrorism and capital punishment of any kind.
There's plenty of very progressive discussion happening in academia. Some of it moves into government. There's a lot - Islamic Modernism is my go-to example because Muhammad Abduh is a fucking fantastic dude, but there are many, many other intellectual Islamic academic movements that promote rationality and interpretive understanding of Islamic texts to varying degrees. The more that organized higher education takes root in Muslim countries, the more likely these ideas will spread throughout the educated population, the more popular they will become.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for that, that's actually what I was looking for.
Still, it's really sad to see that a lot of islam is going away from the early secular Turkish sate under Mustafa Kemal Ataturk and towards Islamism.
[QUOTE=Fayez;51292456]Ayaan Hirsi Ali isn't even a Muslim and basically just tells atheists and far-righters what they want to hear about Islam. She constantly spews crap about how Muslim immigrants are going to take over Europe and impose sharia law. She was quoted by Brevik before he went on his massacre and she is always quoted by neo-conservative outlets as an expert on Islam despite her having no degrees in Islamic studies.
Here's a choice quote
Maajid Nawaz has no qualifications to be talking about Islam academically, yet he coauthored a book about Islam with Sam "Islam is a cult of death" Harris. I can hardly consider him a Muslim since he renounces the very basics of the faith by telling people to not accept the Quran as God's words. He was also caught drunkenly groping a stripper giving him a lap dance. Truly the best voice for Islam's future.
These people are only propped up as "reformers" and "moderates" by people who know absolutely nothing about Islam. Them being considered Anti-Muslim is irrelevant as no Muslims listen to them.[/QUOTE]
Islam is a cult of death, just like Christianity.
Could you imagine if Christ wasn't crucified but was executed with a guillotine? Would people be walking around with those around their necks?
Saying islam is a cult of death shouldn't be an outrageous claim. These people ARE obsessed with death. That's kind of the whole point.
[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;51292728]Thanks for that, that's actually what I was looking for.
Still, it's really sad to see that a lot of islam is going away from the early secular Turkish sate under Mustafa Kemal Ataturk and towards Islamism.[/QUOTE]
It's very unfortunate to see Wahhabism and Salafism become so accepted in the Middle East, but it's important to understand the historical context of Islamic thought, and a lot of people ignore that part and view modern Islamist thought and Wahhabism and Salafism as "what Islam is supposed to be like" when, historically, it really hasn't been like that. It's a very recent development in Islamic thought and the academic ans theological pushback against it is only growing. Anti-Western thought has been incredibly pervasive in the Middle East for a long time now - even some early Modernists in the 1800s wanted to reform Islam to [I]compete[/I] with Western colonialism and imperialism. People like Ghamidi are doing it right, using nothing but the actual writings to reach conclusions that mesh with Western ideas of human rights and so on.
ISIS's celebration of violence and destruction through radical reinterpretation of religious texts has received so much more condemnation from Muslim theologians and academics than the earlier radicalism of fundamentalist groups like the Taliban did. It's opening the door for a reactionary reinterpretation of Islam that moves in the opposite direction, promoting progressive values rather than fundamentalist ones. ISIS is actively pushing traditionalists away from literalism and fundamentalism, and towards more progressive, secular, and liberal interpretations. As bad as it is, it's opening the door for a period of significant religious reform, and I'm optimistic that Islamic Modernism or Liberal Quranism or any other liberal Muslim school of thought will use the instability in the Middle East and the international attention on Islam to push into a more mainstream position. Instability in religious thought generally leads to reform, and the absolute instability of Islamist thought as a form of government makes me hope that Islam could have a larger movement that looks back to the ideas of Ataturk and Abduh and the incredible progressive theology of the mid-1800s to the early 1900s.
[editline]1st November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ltp0wer;51292751]Islam is a cult of death, just like Christianity.
Could you imagine if Christ wasn't crucified but was executed with a guillotine? Would people be walking around with those around their necks?
Saying islam is a cult of death shouldn't be an outrageous claim. These people ARE obsessed with death. That's kind of the whole point.[/QUOTE]
I literally just cited a bunch of Muslim academics who are more progressive than your average evangelical Christian, including Muhammad Abduh who died like a century ago. They're more progressive than your average Red Pill anti-theist alt-right redditor, without a doubt. Fundamentalist Islamism is a radical change from tradition, and calling it a "death cult" when former caliphates and Islamic States literally had a mandate in sharia law to protect religious minorities and [I]taxing them[/I] was controversial shows that you've got some very poor understanding of how religion operates and how religious thought develops over time.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;51292804]It's very unfortunate to see Wahhabism and Salafism become so accepted in the Middle East, but it's important to understand the historical context of Islamic thought, and a lot of people ignore that part and view modern Islamist thought and Wahhabism and Salafism as "what Islam is supposed to be like" when, historically, it really hasn't been like that. It's a very recent development in Islamic thought and the academic ans theological pushback against it is only growing. Anti-Western thought has been incredibly pervasive in the Middle East for a long time now - even some early Modernists in the 1800s wanted to reform Islam to [I]compete[/I] with Western colonialism and imperialism. People like Ghamidi are doing it right, using nothing but the actual writings to reach conclusions that mesh with Western ideas of human rights and so on.
ISIS's celebration of violence and destruction through radical reinterpretation of religious texts has received so much more condemnation from Muslim theologians and academics than the earlier radicalism of fundamentalist groups like the Taliban did. It's opening the door for a reactionary reinterpretation of Islam that moves in the opposite direction, promoting progressive values rather than fundamentalist ones. ISIS is actively pushing traditionalists away from literalism and fundamentalism, and towards more progressive, secular, and liberal interpretations. As bad as it is, it's opening the door for a period of significant religious reform, and I'm optimistic that Islamic Modernism or Liberal Quranism or any other liberal Muslim school of thought will use the instability in the Middle East and the international attention on Islam to push into a more mainstream position. Instability in religious thought generally leads to reform, and the absolute instability of Islamist thought as a form of government makes me hope that Islam could have a larger movement that looks back to the ideas of Ataturk and Abduh and the incredible progressive theology of the mid-1800s to the early 1900s.
[editline]1st November 2016[/editline]
I literally just cited a bunch of Muslim academics who are more progressive than your average evangelical Christian, including Muhammad Abduh who died like a century ago. They're more progressive than your average Red Pill anti-theist alt-right redditor, without a doubt. Fundamentalist Islamism is a radical change from tradition, and calling it a "death cult" when former caliphates and Islamic States literally had a mandate in sharia law to protect religious minorities and [I]taxing them[/I] was controversial shows that you've got some very poor understanding of how religion operates and how religious thought develops over time.[/QUOTE]
My reply was only directed at the Sam "Islam is a cult of Death" Harris part. Sorry for not making that clear.
[QUOTE=Fayez;51292456]Ayaan Hirsi Ali isn't even a Muslim and basically just tells atheists and far-righters what they want to hear about Islam. She constantly spews crap about how Muslim immigrants are going to take over Europe and impose sharia law. She was quoted by Brevik before he went on his massacre and she is always quoted by neo-conservative outlets as an expert on Islam despite her having no degrees in Islamic studies.
Here's a choice quote
Maajid Nawaz has no qualifications to be talking about Islam academically, yet he coauthored a book about Islam with Sam "Islam is a cult of death" Harris. I can hardly consider him a Muslim since he renounces the very basics of the faith by telling people to not accept the Quran as God's words. He was also caught drunkenly groping a stripper giving him a lap dance. Truly the best voice for Islam's future.
These people are only propped up as "reformers" and "moderates" by people who know absolutely nothing about Islam. Them being considered Anti-Muslim is irrelevant as no Muslims listen to them.[/QUOTE]
Wow. You just excommunicated a Muslim because he got a lap dance.
Please take a loot in the mirror. Look at the hoops you are jumping through to try and defend this. Switch Islam with Christianity and tell me you're not embarrassed with what you just said.
Its a joke how much the left treats Islam with kid gloves.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51292931]Wow. You just excommunicated a Muslim because he got a lap dance.
Please take a loot in the mirror. Look at the hoops you are jumping through to try and defend this. Switch Islam with Christianity and tell me you're not embarrassed with what you just said.
Its a joke how much the left treats Islam with kid gloves.[/QUOTE]
Way to overreact there. I doubt he outright "excommunicated" him, but merely saying that he's far, [I]far[/I] away from being an example, huh ?
[QUOTE=Ltp0wer;51292751]Islam is a cult of death, just like Christianity.
Could you imagine if Christ wasn't crucified but was executed with a guillotine? Would people be walking around with those around their necks?
Saying islam is a cult of death shouldn't be an outrageous claim. These people ARE obsessed with death. That's kind of the whole point.[/QUOTE]
Yes, mister "Hail Satan" Satanic Member, I sure am obsessed with death, can't you see ?
For your information, I'm totally your average frenchman, and I'd be indescernible from one if it weren't for my name.
Some sensible people in here did say that these sacks of shit' endgoal was to instill fear and divide muslims from the world. Well they're succeeding at that, at least as shown on this forum.
Thankfully, in my everyday life people all around me don't treat me like a threat, but as a normal person.
[QUOTE=Fayez;51292456]Ayaan Hirsi Ali isn't even a Muslim and basically just tells atheists and far-righters what they want to hear about Islam. She constantly spews crap about how Muslim immigrants are going to take over Europe and impose sharia law. She was quoted by Brevik before he went on his massacre and she is always quoted by neo-conservative outlets as an expert on Islam despite her having no degrees in Islamic studies.
Here's a choice quote
Maajid Nawaz has no qualifications to be talking about Islam academically, yet he coauthored a book about Islam with Sam "Islam is a cult of death" Harris. I can hardly consider him a Muslim since he renounces the very basics of the faith by telling people to not accept the Quran as God's words. He was also caught drunkenly groping a stripper giving him a lap dance. Truly the best voice for Islam's future.
These people are only propped up as "reformers" and "moderates" by people who know absolutely nothing about Islam. Them being considered Anti-Muslim is irrelevant as no Muslims listen to them.[/QUOTE]
Ugh, what makes you the expert then? or are you also not really qualified to speak on islam?
what you are saying sounds a lot like "listen and believe, cis white male for you dont know what it is like to be a women" feminist extremist bullshit, only about islam...
the point is to hear out everyones arguments and let the marketplace of ideas sort it out. there is no such thing as "not being qualified to speak about something" and even if there was talking shit about stuff you are clueless about should not get you branded as an extremist willy nilly...
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51292931]Wow. You just excommunicated a Muslim because he got a lap dance.
Please take a loot in the mirror. Look at the hoops you are jumping through to try and defend this. Switch Islam with Christianity and tell me you're not embarrassed with what you just said.
Its a joke how much the left treats Islam with kid gloves.[/QUOTE]
I don't know anyone in "the left" who doesn't think fundamentalist Islamism is despicable. The problem is that people not in "the left" generalize one specific semi-popular regional radical sect of Islam to all of Islam, which is dishonest. It's like saying all Christians believe that Jesus went to the US and made Mormonism or something - most actually don't.
Islam isn't a religion of hate and violence necessarily; some groups are. Islamists are. I've provided many examples of popular groups that are not at all similar and promote tolerance and democracy and human rights and denounce the authority of hadiths and promote individual interpretation. I do the same with Christianity - is it acceptable that evangelicals in Africa are promoting anti-LGBT campaigns of hate and violence? No. Are the actions and beliefs of those evangelicals generalizable to the entire religion? No.
I'm not treating it with kid gloves, I'm treating it with academic rigor - something "the left" has a tendency to value. Generalizing Wahhabist beliefs to all of Islam is academically ignorant, just like generalizing Zen Buddhism to all Buddhism when you have very violent Buddhist sects killing people. Neither are religions of peace or religions of violence exclusively.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51292931]Wow. You just excommunicated a Muslim because he got a lap dance.
Please take a loot in the mirror. Look at the hoops you are jumping through to try and defend this. Switch Islam with Christianity and tell me you're not embarrassed with what you just said.
Its a joke how much the left treats Islam with kid gloves.[/QUOTE]
Why don't you tell us all who "the left" is?
[QUOTE=Jim Morrison;51293345]Why don't you tell us all who "the left" is?[/QUOTE]
Everyone who isn't right
Oh great. Now we're getting into semantics.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51292278]The worst part about the SPLC mislabeling people and the Anti-Defamation League calling Pepe a Nazi symbol is that I can no longer trust any of the other groups/people they have labeled. Who knows how many of the others listed as anti-Muslims bigots or white nationalists are completely innocent?[/QUOTE]
The anti-defamation league specifically stated that Pepe is not inherently a Nazi symbol. You're kind of misrepresenting them.
[URL]http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/hate-on-display/c/pepe-the-frog.html[/URL]
[quote]The majority of uses of Pepe the Frog have been, and continue to be, non-bigoted. However, it was inevitable that, as the meme proliferated in on-line venues such as 4chan, 8chan, and Reddit, which have many users who delight in creating racist memes and imagery, a subset of Pepe memes would come into existence that centered on racist, anti-Semitic or other bigoted themes.[/quote]
Pepe qualifies as a hate symbol worth documenting because of its usage by fascists. Doesn't mean a hate symbol is all it is.
Also yeah, the SPLC can be generous about branding people as hateful extremists at times but you can look up their map of hate groups and extremists and find that yeah, a lot of them actually fit quite well. Overall they're a pretty good group.
Still, I REALLY don't get why Maajid Nawaz in on there. Ayaan makes sense. Maajid's story might be shady, but calling him Anti-Muslim is pretty disingenous when he more just believes in narrative over fact.
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51293021]Ugh, what makes you the expert then? or are you also not really qualified to speak on islam?
[/QUOTE]
They're not qualified to speak about Islam academically because they have no academic credentials relating to Islam.
[QUOTE]what you are saying sounds a lot like "listen and believe, cis white male for you dont know what it is like to be a women" feminist extremist bullshit, only about islam...
the point is to hear out everyones arguments and let the marketplace of ideas sort it out. there is no such thing as "not being qualified to speak about something" and even if there was talking shit about stuff you are clueless about should not get you branded as an extremist willy nilly...[/QUOTE]
Yes there is. If you want your argument to be taken seriously you need to have the proper credentials to write about it. No one would pay attention to a Physics paper written by a Doctor of Philosophy, why should it be different for theological papers?
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51292620]Nawaz is though, but he's a heretic to Mr. Fayez as he has a different interpretation of Islam to his and [/QUOTE]
Nawaz rejects a very basic tenet of Islam, the insistence that the Quran is God's words. It's the same as a Christian saying that Jesus didn't exist.
[QUOTE]as such needs to get the heretic treatment of a beheading with a sword. Actually, Ali probably does too because she renounced her faith.[/QUOTE]
Since I'm a Muslim I think that apostates and heretics need to killed. Thanks.
[QUOTE=Ltp0wer;51292751]Saying islam is a cult of death shouldn't be an outrageous claim. These people ARE obsessed with death. That's kind of the whole point.[/QUOTE]
i must've missed all the death talk with my mum
[editline]1st November 2016[/editline]
like i remember my family very well i seem to recall very little death talk
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