[QUOTE=Sprelle;52508035]This is dumb as hell, let children be children.[/QUOTE]
That's literally what they're doing though.
I went into this thinking it was gonna be about people forcing progressiveness on kids but really it's more about letting them be what they wanna be, the mapa person even said "if he decides to dress like a dude one day, that's on him" and the kid himself obviously knows and doesn't give a fuck, so where's the harm?
I appriciate progressivness, but i feel its a bit excessive in this case.
[QUOTE=Sprelle;52508099]I appriciate progressivness, but i feel its a bit excessive in this case.[/QUOTE]
tbh I don't appreciate it, I merely tolerate it
I just don't see a problem here so I'm gonna let it fly.
I am all for not forcing gender stereotypes on your children but this feels a lil bit excessive
I mean, it's really unecessary and kind of dumb but it seems like the kids are happy and I doubt it's harming them.
[QUOTE=Clovis;52508145]and if they grow up to be extremely unhappy with themselves because theyre such an outcast, even if thats not guaranteed to be the case, this is guaranteed to be the reason if that is the case[/QUOTE]
but since this is entirely speculation I can also speculate that they will grow up confident and free of the negative aspects of the role we were imprinted to play as a kid, more open to appreciate the things that people - themselves and others- paint on the canvas that each person is.
[QUOTE=Clovis;52508145]and if they grow up to be extremely unhappy with themselves because theyre such an outcast, even if thats not guaranteed to be the case, this is guaranteed to be the reason if that is the case[/QUOTE]
Unless you can peer into the future I don't think you have [I]any[/I] guarantee that's the case -- people are frequently outcasted for tons of reasons, even those who in most ways are completely "normal".
But if you can peer into the future I think you'd really be able to help me benefit from my gambling addiction. PM me if that's the case.
I think maybe these parents are going a little too far with the whole "no gender roles" thing but I think the implementation of it in the school system is good. When I was in nursery and primary school (and hell even early high school) the boys and girls always stayed away from each other, only really interacting when forced to do so. I think an environment like that, where boys and girls don't want to interact, is pretty hurtful.
All forcing kids to be non-binary does is reinforce existing negative gender stereotypes. Instead of showing that men/women can differ from the norm, a shitload of new norms have been made so that nobody has to be a man/woman who isn't normal, everybody gets their own special category to be different in. And at the end of the day, gender is irrelevant. It's just a label that has lost all meaning, and anybody who judges based on it, whether it be a misogynistic woman-hating dude or a non-binary who makes a huge deal out of it, is a shallow as fuck person for caring about someone's gender more than how good or bad of a person they are.
[editline]26th July 2017[/editline]
Haha, they spend a minute and a half talking with this one guy who has perfectly reasonable criticisms of the system and then just carry on saying "yeah he kinda has a point" before ignoring them for the rest of the video.
[QUOTE=Kierany9;52508200]It's just a label that has lost all meaning, and anybody who values it, whether it be a misogynistic woman-hating dude or a non-binary who makes a huge deal out of it, is a shallow as fuck person for caring about someone's gender more than how good or bad of a person they are.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that the point? Not that I don't think this isn't excessive, but the world that these people are trying to make, one where men aren't seen as any different as women, gender roles and stereotypes don't exist, and where gender is meaningless.
Regardless of the way people are going about changing the world, is the end goal really that bad? It's interesting to wonder what would happen to society if things like sexuality didn't exist and your attraction to people would be entirely based on their character rather than a gender.
Sweden needs to be stopped
I wonder what country-
oh, Sweden. Nothing to see here folks
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Why reply" - Novangel))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Octopod;52508239]Isn't that the point? Not that I don't think this isn't excessive, but the world that these people are trying to make, one where men aren't seen as any different as women, gender roles and stereotypes don't exist, and where gender is meaningless.
Regardless of the way people are going about changing the world, is the end goal really that bad?[/QUOTE]
Arguably not, although it's a total pipe dream because male and female genders will always be linked to the biological sexes, and biological differences, especially on the hormonal level, can affect behaviours and interests, which is where quite a few stereotypes come from. Not all, but a few, and trying to condition all kids to steer away from this is pants on head retarded, and potentially harmful.
[QUOTE=Kierany9;52508259]Arguably not, although it's a total pipe dream because male and female genders will always be linked to the biological sexes, and biological differences, especially on the hormonal level, can affect behaviours and interests, which is where quite a few stereotypes come from. Not all, but a few, and trying to condition all kids to steer away from this is pants on head retarded, and potentially harmful.[/QUOTE]
I'm interested on what the harm could be. Using this post as an example:
[QUOTE=Drury;52508051]That's literally what they're doing though.
I went into this thinking it was gonna be about people forcing progressiveness on kids but really it's more about letting them be what they wanna be, the mapa person even said "if he decides to dress like a dude one day, that's on him" and the kid himself obviously knows and doesn't give a fuck, so where's the harm?[/QUOTE]
In the video the oldest kid is a boy but because they're being raised in an environment where the parents let the kids wear and play with whatever the hell they want he basically started wearing dresses on his own, which to be honest I also don't see a problem with. I guess you could say they're not being forced into a gender role, but are "forced" to choose what kind of person they'll become.
Obviously there'll be problems in today's age where people will assume gender or some shit, but then again it seems like most of Sweden already acknowledges gender-neutral pronouns and such, if the video is accurate. Maybe it won't be as bad?
I ended up watching the entire video with no intention of doing it and I can really see a lot of the points that are brought up. The thing is, kids are like that. When I was a kid I used to play with my sisters toys and other shit, just like these kids in this video. What it really looks like though is that the parent(s) are just hammering it in to them. The guy with the counter-point in the video made a good point too. I was sort of lost at the end where the parent was on about how giving them no gender balanced out their white male privilege.
What do I know though, tbh I couldn't care less what you are as long as you're not an asshole.
It doesn't seem like they're forcing their kids to be anything, just basically saying "be whatever you want I don't care", which is fair enough and probably the way things should be done.
There's a bit where they say that they don't correct people when they call their kids "he" or "she" because it's up to them to decide and sometimes they might even go along with it if it's what the kid wants.
All these comments complaining about "the parents forcing their views" on these children are ridiculous when that is exactly what you're doing. Even then, the parents aren't forcing anything, they're literally just empowering the kids to make choices outside of the pointless limits society poses. We should all strive to raise offspring in such an open, fair manner. What harm can come from this? Children who truly love and accept their own interests and feel free to pursue or express them? There's nothing scary about that.
[QUOTE=Octopod;52508291]I'm interested on what the harm could be. Using this post as an example:
In the video the oldest kid is a boy but because they're being raised in an environment where the parents let the kids wear and play with whatever the hell they want he basically started wearing dresses on his own, which to be honest I also don't see a problem with.
Obviously there'll be problems in today's age where people will assume gender or some shit, but then again it seems like most of Sweden already acknowledges gender-neutral pronouns and such, if the video is accurate. Maybe it won't be as bad?[/QUOTE]
The mother expresses concerns about the father* imposing non-conformity on the children, as well as mentioning that the kid loved cars and hates playing with dolls, which is a typically male thing, meaning that regardless of how much you want your kid to defy stereotypes, sometimes they don't. And unless I misheard, the father was encouraging his kids to wear those dresses.
There have been plenty of cases already where "non-conforming" parents have attempted to force progressiveness onto their kids already, this is just as bad as a parent enforcing extreme tradition and is a genuine concern.
*It's way easier to say father than it is to care about pronouns and specify that it's the mother with the beard each time.
[QUOTE=Kierany9;52508341]The mother expresses concerns about the father* imposing non-conformity on the children, as well as mentioning that the kid loved cars and hates playing with dolls, which is a typically male thing, meaning that regardless of how much you want your kid to defy stereotypes, sometimes they don't. And unless I misheard, the father was encouraging his kids to wear those dresses.
There have been plenty of cases already where "non-conforming" parents have attempted to force progressiveness onto their kids already, this is just as bad as a parent enforcing extreme tradition and is a genuine concern for the kids.
*It's way easier to say father than it is to care about pronouns and specify that it's the mother with the beard each time.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't that be the fault of the parents then, not of this whole "neutral" idea?
[QUOTE=antair;52508331]All these comments complaining about "the parents forcing their views" on these children are ridiculous when that is exactly what you're doing. Even then, the parents aren't forcing anything, they're literally just empowering the kids to make choices outside of the pointless limits society poses. We should all strive to raise offspring in such an open, fair manner. What harm can come from this? Children who truly love and accept their own interests and feel free to pursue or express them? There's nothing scary about that.[/QUOTE]
because left to their own devices, children will not grow up 'genderless'. Boys and girls behave differently especially at a young age and this can be seen independently of societal 'limits'
As such, you have to actually teach the kids to take on this kind of thinking, which is textbook agenda pushing
[editline]-[/editline]
i guess i should say 'agender' pushing :smug:
Was that a Rip cord blender, cool.
[QUOTE=antair;52508331]All these comments complaining about "the parents forcing their views" on these children are ridiculous when that is exactly what you're doing. Even then, the parents aren't forcing anything, they're literally just empowering the kids to make choices outside of the pointless limits society poses. We should all strive to raise offspring in such an open, fair manner. What harm can come from this? Children who truly love and accept their own interests and feel free to pursue or express them? There's nothing scary about that.[/QUOTE]
Also if you watch to the end one of the parents starts ranting on about white privilege and how non-conforming gender balances it out
[QUOTE=Octopod;52508354]Wouldn't that be the fault of the parents then, not of this whole "neutral" idea?[/QUOTE]
It's a fault of the way parents and the state are implementing the neutral idea, and also because as I've mentioned, the idea is fundamentally impossible. Instead of trying to remove truly negative gender stereotypes, they try and remove gender itself.
[QUOTE=Cabbage;52508359]i guess i should say 'agender' pushing :smug:[/QUOTE]
:godzing:
[QUOTE=meharryp;52508384]Also if you watch to the end one of the parents starts ranting on about white privilege and how non-conforming gender balances it out[/QUOTE]
To me it just seems like these parents are poor examples of the "gender-neutral" idea at work.
[QUOTE=Kierany9;52508388]It's a fault of the way parents and the state are implementing the neutral idea, and also because as I've mentioned, the idea is fundamentally impossible. Instead of trying to remove truly negative gender stereotypes, they try and remove gender itself.[/QUOTE]
Yeah that sounds fair enough. I also think the idea is near impossible to implement correctly, at least in my lifetime.
[QUOTE=Octopod;52508404]Yeah that sounds fair enough. I also think the idea is near impossible to implement correctly, at least in my lifetime.[/QUOTE]
Out of curiosity, what do you think the benefits of implementing it correctly would be that aren't removing negative stereotypes and equality?
I'm on the fence about this. When Mika's like "I'm neither, I'm both" I have to wonder if this identity will persist into adulthood, and whether raising them differently would've changed that.
[QUOTE=Kierany9;52508388]Instead of trying to remove truly negative gender stereotypes, they try and remove gender itself.
:godzing:[/QUOTE]
This this this.
Genders should exist like a hair color. You can have any you want untill the paint starting damaging your hair and you go bald.
Those parents metaphorically shave their kids off all their hair and then throw fuckton of wigs at them.
And althought they might look ok from distance, people will always suspect whenever they are undercover skinheads.
Metaphorically speaking.
[QUOTE=antair;52508331]All these comments complaining about "the parents forcing their views" on these children are ridiculous when that is exactly what you're doing. Even then, the parents aren't forcing anything, they're literally just empowering the kids to make choices outside of the pointless limits society poses. We should all strive to raise offspring in such an open, fair manner. What harm can come from this? Children who truly love and accept their own interests and feel free to pursue or express them? There's nothing scary about that.[/QUOTE]
Are limits society poses really pointless? It all has a purpose, one way or the other. It may be uncomfortable to admit, but the needs of a society are not the same as the needs of the individuals within.
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