[quote]Right to self-defence in homes to be 'much clearer'
Justice Secretary Ken Clarke has said a householder who knifes a burglar will not have committed a criminal offence under plans to clarify the law on self-defence in England.
He told the BBC people were entitled to use "whatever force necessary" to protect themselves and their homes.
David Cameron recently said the issue should be put "beyond doubt".
Mr Clarke has also said he is committed to axing indeterminate prison sentences despite opposition from many Tory MPs.
Mr Clarke has come under attack over proposed changes to sentencing policy but has denied making a series of U-turns on key elements amid pressure from Tory MPs and sections of the media.
He said indeterminate sentences - where prisoners can be held beyond their original release date if they still pose a danger to society - had been an "unmitigated disaster" since they had been introduced by Tony Blair
He suggested an alternative to them would be in place within two years.
Mr Clarke will defend his criminal justice agenda when proposed sentencing and legal aid changes are debated by MPs later - although no plans to change indeterminate sentences are currently included in planned legislation.
On people's rights to self-defence in their homes, Mr Clarke said there was "constant doubt" about the issue and the proposed legislation would make this "much clearer".
Under the terms of the 2008 Criminal Justice and Immigration Act, homeowners who use "reasonable force" to protect themselves against intruders should not be prosecuted, providing they use no more force than is absolutely necessary.
'Absolute right'
But the government is set to place people's right to defend their property, long present in common law, in statute law.
"It's quite obvious that people are entitled to use whatever force is necessary to protect themselves and their homes," Mr Clarke said.
Asked about what this would mean in practice, he said: "If an old lady finds she's got an 18 year old burgling her house and she picks up a kitchen knife and sticks it in him she has not committed a criminal offence and we will make that clear."
He added: "We will make it quite clear you can hit the burglar with the poker if he's in the house and you have a perfect defence when you do so."
Mr Clarke said legal protection would not extend to anyone shooting a burglar in the back when they were fleeing or "getting their friends together to beat them up".
"We all know what we mean when we say a person has an absolute right to defend themselves and their home and reasonable force.
"Nobody should prosecute and nobody should ever convict anybody who takes those steps."
The BBC's Political Correspondent Ross Hawkins said it remained to be seen how judges would interpret any change in the law when cases came to court.
Legal aid
Mr Clarke also made clear his determination to repeal indeterminate public protection prison sentences.
While some people had to stay in prison for an unspecified amount of time, he said the six-year old policy was "filling up" prisons and it was "indefensible" that some prisoners did not know how long they would have to serve and when they might be considered for release.
Ministers dropped plans to offer suspects pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity a 50% reduction in their jail sentences following a public consultation but Mr Clarke suggested there would be no backtracking on this matter.
Although he would consider carefully any changes, he said more prisoners should get "fixed-length" sentences.
Tory MP Philip Davies has said indeterminate sentences - 6,000 of which have been handed down - have reduced crime and Mr Clarke's stance on the issue "shows beyond all doubt that re-offending is not his priority".
A No 10 spokesman said the government was looking at the system "with a view to replacing it".
MPs will also debate the government's plans to cut legal aid in England and Wales at the second reading of Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill.
Under the plans, aimed at saving £300m from the £2.1bn legal aid bill, people will not be eligible for legal aid in a far broader range of civil cases than at present.
But they have come under fire from lawyers and campaign groups, who claim they will lead to more crime and penalise victims.[/quote]
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13957587[/url]
Sweet, can't wait to stab some burglars
The good TV is up here come get it.
I'm okay with this. Inb4 one person says "THIS IS WRONG IT VIOLATES HUMAN RIGHTS SELF DEFENSE IS EVIL JUST GIVE HIM ALL YOUR STUFF BLAH BLAH BLAH" and shits up the entire thread, though.
This is probably going to stir a lot of trouble but sadly I'll turn a blind eye to anyone who thinks they're a victim while doing something illegal like stealing. (But it still situational.. don't stab a 11 year old stealing candy or some shit.)
Too bad they'd overpower me and stab me with my knife in a few seconds. I think I'll stick to hiding somewhere.
What if you shoot them in the front? :v:
About time.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;30781148]I'm okay with this. Inb4 one person says "THIS IS WRONG IT VIOLATES HUMAN RIGHTS SELF DEFENSE IS EVIL JUST GIVE HIM ALL YOUR STUFF BLAH BLAH BLAH" and shits up the entire thread, though.[/QUOTE]
Probably by JDK.
what kind of odd comment is that to make
what you meant to say mr. justice secretary, i'm sure, is that you should put more time to explaining self-defense in order to clarify when someone has protected themselves
i mean what kind of idiot just says "a householder who knifes a burglar will not have committed a criminal offence" without any kind of context
I remember a burglar sued because he fell on some knives when robbing a house.
THIS IS WRONG IT VIOLATES HUMAN RIGHTS SELF DEFENSE IS EVIL JUST GIVE HIM ALL YOUR STUFF
Sorry, i had to.
Anyway, good one them.
If I lived in the UK, I'd stay up at nights with a fucking bayonet attached to a rifle in a neighbourhood with a high crime rate just to stab people.
[QUOTE=Metanar;30781155]Too bad they'd overpower me and stab me with my knife in a few seconds. I think I'll stick to hiding somewhere.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like you need a gun.
A knife gun.
[quote][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/QJudb.jpg[/IMG][/quote]
Nobody is reading this
You still need to be in danger, you can't chase someone down who broke into your home and stab them for example
If the person is in your home you're in danger, if they're running you aren't, really important distinction that people seem to forget and it could land you in jail if you're not careful
[QUOTE=Goodthief;30781244]I remember a burglar sued because he fell on some knives when robbing a house.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that from Liar Liar?
Potentially killing someone because they tried to rob you seems excessive to me.
Thank god for this, we can now defend ourselves against dumb chavs.
[editline]29th June 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;30781798]Potentially killing someone because they tried to rob you seems excessive to me.[/QUOTE]
I think this is more if they're in your house and they're trying to kill you, which to be honest should have been a law in the first place.
If you are in a position where you know you can defeat a burglar, why not just knock him in the face a couple of times.
If he has a knife and threatens to use it, I think it will go under self defence anyways if you shank him.
[QUOTE=Falchion;30781842]If you are in a position where you know you can defeat a burglar, why not just knock him in the face a couple of times.
If he has a knife and threatens to use it, I think it will go under self defence anyways.[/QUOTE]
British self defence laws are dreadful at the moment, essentially if a guy comes at you with a knife with the current laws you can't do a lot to stop him without ending up being convicted.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;30781804]
I think this is more if they're in your house and they're trying to kill you, which to be honest should have been a law in the first place.[/QUOTE]
They don't necessarily have to be trying to kill you, just a danger to you. Which is acceptable and I don't know why the law wasn't like that in the UK in the first place
Uh, risking my life to stab a burglar, as opposed to letting him walk away with your TV and then calling the police?
Sure, you might be legally allowed to stab your intruder, but you're still reckless and dumb, if you do it for other purposes than self-defense.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30781882]They don't necessarily have to be trying to kill you, just a danger to you. Which is acceptable and I don't know why the law wasn't like that in the UK in the first place[/QUOTE]
At the moment we have the "Reasonable force" law, which tends to get a bit iffy as defining what would class as reasonable force can be quite difficult in some cases.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;30781860]British self defence laws are dreadful at the moment, essentially if a guy comes at you with a knife with the current laws you can't do a lot to stop him without ending up being convicted.[/QUOTE]
False. If your life can be proven to be in danger, you can do all that is necessary. That's the law as it stands. Problem is people don't know how the law works because it has a lot of grey areas. (e.g, if you have a gun and you're warning people that you will shoot them, and do when they're leaving, that would get you in trouble)
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;30781947]False. If your life can be proven to be in danger, you can do all that is necessary. That's the law as it stands. Problem is people don't know how the law works because it has a lot of grey areas. (e.g, if you have a gun and you're warning people that you will shoot them, and do when they're leaving, that would get you in trouble)[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure it's illegal to use guns as a form of self defence in the UK
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;30781957]I'm pretty sure it's illegal to use guns as a form of self defence in the UK[/QUOTE]
As far as I know, it's not. Not when used as a deterrent, for example, holding it. Using it in a dangerous or threatening manner (Shooting at them while they're walking away) is, however.
I'm not a lawyer, of course.
[QUOTE=Marc Laidlaw;30781736]Isn't that from Liar Liar?[/QUOTE]
yeah but its a true story
happened a few times actually
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;30781957]I'm pretty sure it's illegal to use guns as a form of self defence in the UK[/QUOTE]
Not all guns are banned in the UK. Rifles and shotguns are still perfectly obtainable, you just need a license.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;30781928]At the moment we have the "Reasonable force" law, which tends to get a bit iffy as defining what would class as reasonable force can be quite difficult in some cases.[/QUOTE]
This new one has the term "reasonable force" as well
If somebody is on your property with criminal intent/already has committed a crime, then you should have every right to remove said individual from your property by any means necessary. (I.e stabbing, shooting or running over in a tractor)
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