• When's a man not a man; when's a woman not a woman
    171 replies, posted
Quite often, people will make the deduction that some anatomical [i](and sometimes physiological)[/i] change incurred by the use of external means [i](e.g. by hormones or surgery)[/i] will not change the sex* of that individual, as they apparently will always remain as they are. So, often, a transsexual will be referred to as they were and not as they are, despite any significant anatomical change; regardless of whether their appearance corresponds to their self-declared self (e.g. female-to-male). And so, the arguments "it'll always be a man and all it's doing is self-mutilating and is just a sub-male" persist. The problem with these statements is that they dismiss that many men/women carry some of the traits they attain from their previous sex [i](e.g. height, big hands, feminine face, sex organs, etc)[/i], and they also dismiss intersex individuals [i](so, a female born with testes or a penis with an internal uterus, is she not a she and just a he?)[/i]. Also, for transsexuals, are they not men/women but still correspond to some other variance of their gender, or is their sex still converse to their gender? Or are they just delusional? [i](also consider that if one identified as male but has a female sex, that it's almost impossible (at present) for them to determine whether they are definitely female or whether it's just some psychotic delusion)[/i] So, ultimately, is one's gender merely how they perceive themselves to be? How others view them, or a combination of both, and a result of the total number of masculine/feminine traits compared against each other? Bonus: Why is identity important? How does one's gender [i](even with infertility)[/i] relate to their survival? [i](often, some declare that identity is survival -- but why?)[/i] *for clarification, gender is how they identify themselves and sex is their anatomy and physiology.
Gender is what you are, I could feel like an elephant but It doesnt mean I am one Bonus Identity is important because its who you are and something you will always have
[QUOTE=phobia-_-;30910896]Gender is what you are, I could feel like an elephant but It doesnt mean I am one Bonus Identity is important because its who you are and something you will always have[/QUOTE] Okay, so if one's sex isn't male and their gender is male, then they are male with the exception of others viewing them as a female. Also, what about the identity of those which changes? You're not always the same -- try profiling who you were a few years ago and you'll find that you are not the same person. So, it's adaptive but that doesn't explain why it's important (well, constants as a means to influence chaos) -- why people can go to preposterous lengths to be "comfortable" with their anatomy.
People go to lengths to be comfortable because our ultimate goal is to be happy or to try to perfect ourselves through whatever means. Sex = Gender IMO, I know the definition of it is what the culture sees but most cultures view that sex is what defines a man or woman ultimately
To be, or not to be?
XX=female XY=male XXX=awesome that is all edit: it appears I've forgotten that there can be rare exceptions with what chromosomes you're born with. I have no idea what to say about that
[QUOTE=gnoob;30911108]XX=female XY=male XXX=awesome that is all[/QUOTE] Oh, another thing too: you can have XY born females and XX born males.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;30911130]Oh, another thing too: you can have XY born females and XX born males.[/QUOTE] shit I forgot about that. You're right. Well now my argument is totally flawed
[QUOTE=gnoob;30911166]shit I forgot about that. You're right. Well now my argument is totally flawed[/QUOTE] It's not totally flawed. It just means that chromosome types aren't wholly exclusive to determining sex (so, by this reasoning, a female-to-male with XX should be recognized as a male if it displays masculine traits), although there is the exception of specific genes that determine the sex of that chromosome (e.g. the SRY gene: if absent, an XX male could manifest).
[quote]gender (n): The state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones)[/quote] [quote]sex (n): Either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and many other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions[/quote] A person's gender can be influenced by their sex, and with most people, it is. Trangendered individuals see themselves as in the wrong body, their gender identity not correlating to their physical sex. Basically, if you're physically male but think of yourself as female, then your gender is female. The opposite works as well, physically female but male as your gender. I still find it hard to understand how so many people can mix these two up.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;30910734]Quite often, people will make the deduction that some anatomical (and sometimes physiological) change incurred by the use of external means (e.g. by hormones or surgery) will not change the sex* of that individual, as they apparently will always remain as they are.[/QUOTE] you can never change your XX or XY gonosomes though. whatever someone is, the genes will tell what the person should have been if it wasn't for birth defects or plastic surgery [editline]5th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=gnoob;30911108]XX=female XY=male XXX=awesome[/QUOTE] hivemind, though xxx=bad the klinefelter-syndrome won't give a woman big breasts, but usually drop the persons IQ at least 5 up to 10 points and affect speech it's never good to have 3 chromosomes of the same kind, especially not if it's #21 [img]http://www.facepunch.com/fp/emoot/downs.gif[/img]
[QUOTE=livelonger12;30911130]Oh, another thing too: you can have XY born females and XX born males.[/QUOTE] They're still genetically defined by the chromosomes, therefore he's still correct. You could always just factor out the failed genetic experiments though, are they even human?
[QUOTE=keroba;30911288]you can never change your XX or XY gonosomes though. whatever someone is, the genes will tell what the person should have been if it wasn't for birth defects or plastic surgery [editline]5th July 2011[/editline] hivemind, though xxx=bad [/QUOTE] Yeah I know it's bad and causes downs and stuff but it sounds cool. Also theoretically even less chance of inheriting genetic diseases right? edit: sorry I mean sex-linked genetic diseases
Both genders are needed for survival.
[QUOTE=aurum481;30911889]Both genders are needed for survival.[/QUOTE] Gender =/= Sex.
So its just what you think you are vs what you really are?
It's a trap.
[QUOTE=phobia-_-;30911071] Sex = Gender IMO[/QUOTE] Earth = flat IMO
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30924690]Earth = flat IMO[/QUOTE] That's not even the same argument.
Neutral gender is where it's all at bitches.
I look at it this way: If you were born a man, and decided you want to become a woman, I don't care what "gender" you are because from now on you're just a faggot
[QUOTE=gnoob;30911108]XX=female XY=male XXX=alpha male[/QUOTE] Fix'd
Here's what I don't get, If Gender is the cultural and societal role that people of different sexes typically fall into, Why do transgender people feel the need to change their sex? If they simply want to live in the cultural/societal role of a woman, why do they need to take hormones, or surgically alter their penises.
I'd discuss it but I'm not transgendered so its not truly my place, but I have my doubts on somethings.
Because from what I gather (from lurking the SomethingAwful transgender thread for a few weeks) to call someone a Transsexual is considered offensive or insensitive, while Transgender is prefered. Yet most of the people there identifying as Transgender are not content to wear the cloths of a woman, and fill the societal/cultural role of one (whatever the hell that is). they instead seek to change what they would classify as their sex through hormones and surgery. [editline]5th July 2011[/editline] So it seems like Transsexual would be the appropriate word for those who take hormones or undergo surgery, While Transgender would only apply to people who wish to dress as and fill the societal/cultural role of a woman, much like a Transvestite.
[QUOTE=Captain Bald;30925742]That's not even the same argument.[/QUOTE] Gender and sex being different is a psychological fact, the Earth not being flat is a geological fact. It's the same argument. Don't tell me you're one of those sex=gender NOPE NOT LISTENING TO ANYTHING ELSE people, you're a good poster [editline]5th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Novistador;30927296] So it seems like Transsexual would be the appropriate word for those who take hormones or undergo surgery, While Transgender would only apply to people who wish to dress as and fill the societal/cultural role of a woman, much like a Transvestite.[/QUOTE] I think the most appropriate solution here is to use the term that they want you to use unless your goal is to offend them, in which case you're a tool.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30927497] I think the most appropriate solution here is to use the term that they want you to use unless your goal is to offend them, in which case you're a tool.[/QUOTE] Obviously, I just find the inconsistency odd
[QUOTE=Novistador;30927546]Obviously, I just find the inconsistency odd[/QUOTE] some people like to be called black, some like to be called african american, some find the other offensive and some don't same deal
Am I the only one here who doubts some people's transexuality/transgenderism though? Sounds odd but lemme put it like this. I have a good friend, Male to Female, now. I'm not going to list her FP name or anything here out of respect, and I want to say right now, I accept her for who she is and I simply want her to be happy, but there's somethings I noticed. "Men act differently from Women in situations". No, we do not, Men only act "different" due to social up-bringing and implementation of gender-roles. Your gender does not define your personality in sort of way. She also mentioned " I was happy when I realized I could like masculine things like Gaming :3 ", while a cute thing and I was very happy for her, the thing is? People who are secure in who they are, don't really care. By this? Lemme put it like this, I have 2 sisters and 1 mother, all three of them play games to an extent, 1 of them is actually very into games and we talk about them. My mother is a very bold person. willing to fight and scream and yell, not acting like a "Woman". The thing is? None of us who are secure in ourself and our own image, care about our gender, or if things are masculine or not. I guess My examples are a bit odd, seeing as I just woke up I'm really not in the best place to argue, but I guess what I'm trying to say is, Sometimes I doubt its very "Transgender", as more of "I feel like I NEED to be this gender due to my self-image issues". I know that sounds kinda the same, but its not. I mean shit, this brings up another argument too, what about that couple (was it "gay"? I forgot) where the "Man" was actually a Female > Male transgender. He had sex, like a woman, and gave birth, like a woman. You want to be a male, but you have sex like a female and birth like one. This kind of just means you're an really really ugly woman, by terms of biology, and in terms of society are simply leading a lie, and are being kind of hypocritical. Which I know sounds harsh, but whatever. Point I'm trying to make overall is, I guess? I don't know if I really believe in transgenderism myself, I think its more of self-image issues, along with self-acceptance and the imprints given by society. Some guy who hates himself and is girly, is probably going to have feelings that he should be a woman, simply because society tells him "you fucking act like one". Of course, I over-simply it, and I wish not to offend anyone. My giant ass 2 cents, anyone here who is Transgendered? I'd like to see your input, this isn't something I deal with, and thus, I admit ignorance. TLDR: BRING ON THE HATE [editline]5th July 2011[/editline] Also, my said quotes are from her. Just to clarify
[QUOTE=phobia-_-;30910896]Gender is what you are, I could feel like an elephant but It doesnt mean I am one Bonus Identity is important because its who you are and something you will always have[/QUOTE] Fuck you, I'm a trans-species elephant!
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