Attention Android Users: About Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers - Polidicks

[url=http://www.hardocp.com/news/2011/04/04/big_bad_things_happening_in_android_world]Source[/url] [release][h2]Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers[/h2] [b]Background[/b] I don't believe that I need to introduce myself, but if I do my name is P3Droid. I am a phone enthusiast and have been working in the Android platform for 17 months. I have been very lucky in my short time on the Android platform. I think more than anything I have been lucky enough to be in the right places at the right times. The day I first saw and played with the Droid (OG) I thought “that is the ugliest damn phone I've ever played with”. Then I was asked back into the store by my friend (nameless) to get some time with the Android platform and he began to explain to me how open the phone was and how a “smart” person could do anything they wanted to the phone. That turned what I thought was an ugly phone into the sexiest beast ever. I guess that was approximately October of 2009, and I was excited about the possibilities and dove right in without checking the depth of the water. I spent much of the year on an open phone and an open platform, and sometime in July I picked up a Droid X. I soon found a great bunch of friends and we formed Team Black Hat. Really wanting to break the bootloader, we spent more hours working on it than we did our 9 – 5 jobs. Eventually we came to the conclusion (with help from some unique resources), that we were not going to accomplish our objective. Every so often we still pluck away at it, but we have moved on to other things that will help people enjoy their Droid phones. Fast forward to October 2010. I'm still in love with the concept of android, and I've done more than my share of developing, themeing, creating ROMS and even hacking. *Having been involved in so many things and having developed some unique contacts, I have been privy to information that is not disseminated to the masses. Some of this information I was asked to sit on. Some information I sat on because I felt it was best to do so for our entire community. You have probably seen me rant on occasion about what I thought the community was doing wrong and causing itself future pain. Each of those days I had received even more disheartening information. So where does this leave me? It leaves me with a difficult choice to make. What to tell, how much to tell, and do I want to give information out that could possible be slightly wrong. I've worked very hard to verify things through multiple sources, when possible, and some other information comes from sources so reliable that I take them at their word. This brings me up to today. I've tossed and turned regarding how to say this, and how to express all of the information and my feelings in regards to this information. I guess the solution is to just let you all decide for yourselves what you think and what you want to do. [b]One Shoe Falls[/b] Beginning in July, we (TBH), began hearing things about Motorola working on ways to make rooting the device more difficult. This was going to be done via Google through the kernel. No big deal we thought, the community always finds a way. When Froyo was released and there was no root for some time we became a bit concerned but soon there was a process and even 1-clicks. This was good news and bad news to me, because it simply meant that they would go back to the drawing board and improve upon what they had done. During this time there were still little rumors here and there about security of devices, and other such things but nothing solid and concrete. Until November. [b]The Other Shoe Falls[/b] Beginning in October, the information began coming in faster and it had more of a dire ring to it. It was also coming in from multiple sources. I began to rant a little at the state of our community, and that we were the cause of our own woes. So what did I hear? [list=1] [*]New devices would present challenges for the community that would most likely be insurmountable, and that Motorola specifically – would be impossible to hack the bootloader. Considering we never hacked the previous 3G phones, this was less than encouraging. [*]Locked bootloaders, and phones were not a Motorola-only issue, that the major manufacturers and carriers had agreed this was the best course of action.(see new HTC devices) [*]The driving forces for device lock down was theft of service by rooted users, the return of non-defective devices due to consumer fraud, and the use of non-approved firmware on the networks. [/list] I think I posted my first angry message and tweet about being a responsible community soon after getting this information. I knew the hand writing was on the wall, and we would not be able to stop what was coming, but maybe we could convince them we were not all thieves and cut throats. Moving along, December marked a low point for me. The information started to firm up, and I was able to verify it through multiple channels. This information made the previous information look like a day in the park. So what was new? [list=1] [*]Multiple carriers were working collaboratively on a program that would be able to identify rooted users and create a database of their meids. [*]Manufacturers who supply Verizon were baking into the roms new security features: [/list] [list=a] [*]one security feature would identify any phone using a tether program to circumvent paying for tethering services. (check your gingerbread DroidX/Droid2 people and try wireless tether) [*]a second security feature would allow the phone to identify itself to the network if rooted. [*]security item number 2 would be used to track, throttle, even possibly restrict full data usage of these rooted phones. [/list] [b]The Rubber Meets the Road[/b] So, I wish I had more time to have added this to the original post, but writing something like this takes a lot of time and effort to put all the information into context and provide some form of linear progression. Lets get on with the story. March of this year was a monumental month for me. The information was unsettling and I felt as if we had a gigantic bulls-eye on our backs. This is what I have heard: [list=1] [*]The way that they were able to track rooted users is based on pushing updates to phones, and then tracking which meid's did not take the update. There is more to it than this but that is the simple version. [*]More than one major carrier besides Verizon has implemented this program and that all carriers involved had begun tracking rooted phones. All carriers involved were more than pleased with the accuracy of the program.* [*]*What I was not told is what the carriers intended to do with this information. [*]In new builds the tracking would be built into the firmware and that if a person removed the tracking from the firmware then the phone would not be verified on the network (i.e. your phone could not make phone calls or access data). [*]Google is working with carriers and manufacturers to secure phones, and although Google is not working to end hacking, it is working to secure the kernel so that no future applications can maliciously use exploits to steal end-user information. But in order to gain this level of security this may mean limited chances to root the device. (This item I've been told but not yet able to verify through multiple sources – so take it for what you want) [*]Verizon has successfully used its new programs to throttle data on test devices in accordance with the guidelines of the program. [*]The push is to lock down the devices as tight as can be, but also offer un-lockable devices (Think Nexus S). [/list] The question I've asked is why? Why do all this; why go through so much trouble. The answer I get is a very logical one and one I understand even if I don't like it. It is about the money. With LTE arriving and the higher charges for data and tethering, carriers feel they must bottle up the ability of users to root their device and access this data, circumventing the expensive tethering charges. What I would like to leave you with is that this is not an initiative unique to Verizon or Motorola, this is industry wide and encompassing many manufacturers. So what does all this mean? You will need to make your own conjectures about what to think of all of this. But, I think that the rooting, hacking, and modding community - [u]as we know it[/u] - is living on borrowed time. In the final analysis of all this I guess I'll leave you with my feelings: [i]I will take what comes and turn it into a better brighter day, that is all I can do because I do not control the world.[/i] [quote][b]Disclaimers:[/b] I am intentionally not including any names of sources as they do not want to lose their jobs. This information is being presented to you as I have received and verified it. * I only deal with information pertaining to US carriers and have no specific knowledge concerning foreign carriers.[/quote][/release] So it's official, I guess... Android is [B]really[/B] gonna suck :/

[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;28995845] So it's official, I guess... Android is [B]really[/B] gonna suck :/[/QUOTE] Its not Android. its manufacturers. Google themselves say they can't lock the operating system from obtaining/running as root. Its the manufacturers introducing these locked bootloaders, not Google. Its really unfortunate just because you can't removed the locked bloatware and other crap loaded on the phone without rooted access. The manufacturers themselves don't care about that, because they're the ones getting paid to put that software on the device. But they don't care about us, who are paying for the phone. They don't care about homebrew, or having full access over the $500 phone you just purchased. To hell with the consumer.

[QUOTE=Richard Simmons;28997200]Its not Android. its manufacturers. Google themselves say they can't lock the operating system from obtaining/running as root. Its the manufacturers introducing these locked bootloaders, not Google. Its really unfortunate just because you can't removed the locked bloatware and other crap loaded on the phone without rooted access. The manufacturers themselves don't care about that, because they're the ones getting paid to put that software on the device. But they don't care about us, who are paying for the phone. They don't care about homebrew, or having full access over the $500 phone you just purchased. To hell with the consumer.[/QUOTE] Yeah I know that, but because of that, the whole Android platform is going to get a bad reputation [editline]5th April 2011[/editline] At least, among the hacker/modding community

[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;28997231]Yeah I know that, but because of that, the whole Android platform is going to get a bad reputation [editline]5th April 2011[/editline] At least, among the hacker/modding community[/QUOTE] If there is will, there is a way. Eventually Manufacturers will give up, hopefully.

where the fuck is the source that isn't some guy's paranoid ramblings? also all of this is only happening in the USA, so perhaps it's not android but the carriers at fault?

[QUOTE=Richard Simmons;28997343]If there is will, there is a way. Eventually Manufacturers will give up, hopefully.[/QUOTE] They only begin to even consider giving up when they get completely bogged down by the vast swamp of lawsuits they file while trying to sue everyone ever who's ever jailbroken one of their devices, and even then they may not. Just look at Sony's take on the issue if you don't believe me. :colbert:

[QUOTE=Madman_Andre;28997629]They only begin to even consider giving up when they get completely bogged down by the vast swamp of lawsuits they file while trying to sue everyone ever who's ever jailbroken one of their devices, and even then they may not. Just look at Sony's take on the issue if you don't believe me. :colbert:[/QUOTE] Essentially, its not illegal for you to Root your device. The DMCA grants you rights to root/crack/jailbreak/hack the device [b]YOU [u]PAID FOR[/b][/u]

The way 4chan is treating Sony we should show them this. Jokes aside, I'm sure this won't be too big of a problem. Look at the piracy area of the internet. That's been an ongoing war, and although this is pretty much completely different, it too will be an ongoing war. Doesn't the Motorola Xoom (which I own) almost boast how it can be unlocked/rooted/whatever? How Motorola would still upgrade the Xoom to 4G rooted or not (you wipe your data anyways). People will move towards phones that can be broken into because they'll get the better reputation through the Android community. Shitty phones will die out, and new ones will be split into locked down and not locked down. The only reason the iPhone really hasn't suffered this because there has always been a way eventually. If Apple tried to stop it, they would, and I bet they'd lose more then a handful of customers. [editline]5th April 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Richard Simmons;28998327]Essentially, its not illegal for you to Root your device. The DMCA grants you rights to root/crack/jailbreak/hack the device [b]YOU [u]PAID FOR[/b][/u][/QUOTE] The way I read something towards the end.. it sounded more like it's using an authorized phone on the network, and by tethering (through rooting) you are now 'stealing' as you're doing something on the network when you didn't pay for it. Really silly.. although I understand from the companies point of view. Locking it down won't really help though.. not in the long run.

Call me optimistic but I believe there will always be manufacturers and carriers not employing these measures.

[QUOTE=JeffAndersen;28998337]The way 4chan is treating Sony we should show them this. Jokes aside, I'm sure this won't be too big of a problem. Look at the piracy area of the internet. That's been an ongoing war, and although this is pretty much completely different, it too will be an ongoing war. Doesn't the Motorola Xoom (which I own) almost boast how it can be unlocked/rooted/whatever? How Motorola would still upgrade the Xoom to 4G rooted or not (you wipe your data anyways). People will move towards phones that can be broken into because they'll get the better reputation through the Android community. Shitty phones will die out, and new ones will be split into locked down and not locked down. The only reason the iPhone really hasn't suffered this because there has always been a way eventually. If Apple tried to stop it, they would, and I bet they'd lose more then a handful of customers.[/QUOTE] Apple wouldn't lose customers. They're just as loyal as the retarded dog you got locked up in a cage. the iPhone gets away with so much less. It was proposed that iPhones would check themselves every 14 days to see if they were jailbroken. If they were, it would brick the device. A later DMCA ruling made that an illegal practice. iPhone also only has what, 6 models? iPhone, iPhone2, iPhone3, iPhone3G, iPhone3GS, iPhone4 (CDMA/GSM) compared to the several hundred android devices that exist out there. So they get away with so much more. The bootloader is a actual hardware chip, so Apple isn't going to say "hey give us that iPhone4 back for a minute and we'll give you one with a locked bootloader". The manufacturers will just try to make rooting harder and harder. But they're essentially delaying the time between release and crack. Its a money pit developing all these technologies to prevent something from occurring, but it always happens.

[QUOTE=Richard Simmons;28998327]Essentially, its not illegal for you to Root your device. The DMCA grants you rights to root/crack/jailbreak/hack the device [b]YOU [u]PAID FOR[/b][/u][/QUOTE] Couldn't these manufacturers be taken to court as they are disabling devices that they find to be rooted? I'm probably wrong because I don't know a whole lot about this, but the way I was reading it, is that these companies are essentially making rooted cell phones void, no incoming/outgoing data be it phone calls or other. Isn't there something illegal about that?

[QUOTE=JeffAndersen;28998337]The way 4chan is treating Sony we should show them this. Jokes aside, I'm sure this won't be too big of a problem. Look at the piracy area of the internet. That's been an ongoing war, and although this is pretty much completely different, it too will be an ongoing war. Doesn't the Motorola Xoom (which I own) almost boast how it can be unlocked/rooted/whatever? How Motorola would still upgrade the Xoom to 4G rooted or not (you wipe your data anyways). People will move towards phones that can be broken into because they'll get the better reputation through the Android community. Shitty phones will die out, and new ones will be split into locked down and not locked down. The only reason the iPhone really hasn't suffered this because there has always been a way eventually. If Apple tried to stop it, they would, and I bet they'd lose more then a handful of customers. [editline]5th April 2011[/editline] The way I read something towards the end.. it sounded more like it's using an authorized phone on the network, and by tethering (through rooting) you are now 'stealing' as you're doing something on the network when you didn't pay for it. Really silly.. although I understand from the companies point of view. Locking it down won't really help though.. not in the long run.[/QUOTE] Rooting/Jailbreaking or Hacking your device doesn't mean copyright infringement, or unauthorized tethering. Its useful for swapping firmwares, especially if motorola is being sluggish about the entire thing. Or homebrew applications, motorola hates homebrew. How about removing all that crap bloatware? I think bloatware should be illegal if they cant allow us to have root access. [QUOTE=Jax Strife;28999045]Couldn't these manufacturers be taken to court as they are disabling devices that they find to be rooted? I'm probably wrong because I don't know a whole lot about this, but the way I was reading it, is that these companies are essentially making rooted cell phones void, no incoming/outgoing data be it phone calls or other. Isn't there something illegal about that?[/QUOTE] You have a point, but there is something in there that allows companies from producing these bootloaders. Also after 1 year they have to give up your unlock key for your phone. :)

[QUOTE=Richard Simmons;28998327]Essentially, its not illegal for you to Root your device. The DMCA grants you rights to root/crack/jailbreak/hack the device [b]YOU [u]PAID FOR[/b][/u][/QUOTE] I agree, but most people don't because the corporations fuck the consumers over by making ultimatums that say they can't get their phones fixed or other useless bullshit.

[QUOTE=toaster468;29000199]I agree, but most people don't because the corporations fuck the consumers over by making ultimatums that say they can't get their phones fixed or other useless bullshit.[/QUOTE] Understandable sadly. They are legally obligated to remove your warranty if you remove the stock firmware and/or other security measures that might be on place on that phone. But as anyone who has worked with rooting/cracking phones. Its highly recommended for you to do a fullbackup. If you brick your phone, you're fine with RSDLite. If you break your phone and are sending it in for warranty, RSDLite!

Don't be evil. Also wanting legit news source.

What is it with big companies being dicks? Is it trendy for them? a "I have a big dick" contest? Or are they just stupid and not realizing this'll hurt their reputation and therefor their profits in the future?? [I] Firm A: HA! we screwed over 10.2 million costumers. Firm B: That's nothing, we screwed over 17.5 Million customers. Firm A: You smooth motherfucker. Firm B: Damn right. [/I]

this isn't news what the fuck? this is some nobody who has done nothing -- as HE HIMSELF WRITES -- talking about nothing but unsubstantiated rumors. maybe android users should be worried when the people who are releasing root exploits write something like this? rather than someone who knows absolutely nothing about it??

They did this with the PSP3000 and I haven't found a definitive way to crack mine yet.

[QUOTE=Swilly;29010345]They did this with the PSP3000 and I haven't found a definitive way to crack mine yet.[/QUOTE] There has been custom firmware for all PSP models (including the Go) for quite some time [url]http://www.psp-hacks.com/2011/03/04/psp-cfw-6-35-pro-b2-released/[/url] There you go (it says to install PRO-B2 first, then this, but don't worry; just install 6.35 OFW and then this) Once you install it just use the Fast Recovery thing from that point on to switch to CFW. (You won't boot into it)

this is why I'm satisfied with my itouch, p easy to jailbreak

[QUOTE=Zeke129;29010437]There has been custom firmware for all PSP models (including the Go) for quite some time[/QUOTE] Huh, all I get with google search is PSP3000 uncrackable :saddowns: It had something to do with the thing instantly bricking if you did that.

[QUOTE=Swilly;29010446]Huh, all I get with google search is PSP3000 uncrackable :saddowns: It had something to do with the thing instantly bricking if you did that.[/QUOTE] I updated my post with actual information

[QUOTE=Zeke129;29010480]I updated my post with actual information[/QUOTE] Danke my fuzzy headed friend!(Your avatar's hair)

I understand being upset when homebrew software and alternate OSes are no longer allowed on consoles and larger platforms, but jesus christ it's a phone. You use it to text people, make calls, look shit up on the internet to prove a point, play music, and play crappy little timewaster games. Why the hell do you need to muck about in the OS and boot protocols and shit? It's a goddamn phone. Isn't it good enough that it does so many other things? I get it. You want control. And they're taking it away. But christ, you have other more powerful things to control. It's just a phone.

[QUOTE=Ven Kaeo;29011372]I understand being upset when homebrew software and alternate OSes are no longer allowed on consoles and larger platforms, but jesus christ it's a phone. You use it to text people, make calls, look shit up on the internet to prove a point, play music, and play crappy little timewaster games. Why the hell do you need to muck about in the OS and boot protocols and shit? It's a goddamn phone. Isn't it good enough that it does so many other things? I get it. You want control. And they're taking it away. But christ, you have other more powerful things to control. It's just a phone.[/QUOTE] You're missing the point entirely. And if you let them start with a phone, what next? Your TV? Then maybe your computer monitors? Maybe then you have to have a certified computer to work with you monitor?

[QUOTE=Ven Kaeo;29011372]I understand being upset when homebrew software and alternate OSes are no longer allowed on consoles and larger platforms, but jesus christ it's a phone. You use it to text people, make calls, look shit up on the internet to prove a point, play music, and play crappy little timewaster games. Why the hell do you need to muck about in the OS and boot protocols and shit? It's a goddamn phone. Isn't it good enough that it does so many other things? I get it. You want control. And they're taking it away. But christ, you have other more powerful things to control. It's just a phone.[/QUOTE] Yeah, by itself it is a little silly, but there are definitely performance advantages to be had here. I've seen a number of things that are technically possible with a given phone, but aren't actually done. Video drivers for instance can be replaced by 3rd party video drivers. The processor can be overclocked. The bloatware installed by the manufacturer (I CAN'T FUCKING GET RID OF FACEBOOK ARGGHHHH FUCK YOU FACEBOOK APP.) can be removed. It is an expensive item that is unnecessarily limited by the manufacturer. Which is silly. As Niko said, the fight is best fought here, not after it becomes a major irreversible issue across an array of consumer devices.

[QUOTE=Ven Kaeo;29011372]I understand being upset when homebrew software and alternate OSes are no longer allowed on consoles and larger platforms, but jesus christ it's a phone. You use it to text people, make calls, look shit up on the internet to prove a point, play music, and play crappy little timewaster games. Why the hell do you need to muck about in the OS and boot protocols and shit? It's a goddamn phone. Isn't it good enough that it does so many other things? I get it. You want control. And they're taking it away. But christ, you have other more powerful things to control. It's just a phone.[/QUOTE] If you're not technically inclined, your stance here is futile. I get upset over homebrew, because homebrew is the step up from commercial bullshit. I get upset over custom firmware. because custom firmware contains less bloat and bullshit, allowing me more CPU and memory usage for MY TASKS. Not Manufacturers monetary benefit. It is a phone, its a SMARTPHONE. its a fucking computer, in your hand. I use it to call, to text, to browse the internet. I also use it to play music, and my "crappy little timewaster games" on the train, while drinking some St Paulies Girl (its a hour and half train ride, give me a break). How does this make anything irrelevant? So why the hell do I need to much about in the OS and Bootloaders and "shit"? Its a goddamned phone after all right? WRONG. When you buy a PC, you buy it to check email, go on the internet, watch a movie, play music, play shitty time waster games. Same thing people do on their smartphones, just at a different scale. So why allow people with computers muck about in the OS. its just a goddamned computer after all. You don't get it, and I don't think you ever will. being so tunnel minded, and technically declined.. I just don't see it happening. I do want power over my device, as any technology enthusiast would want. Like a mechanic wants complete control over their car, I want complete control over my electronics. I have more powerful things to control, like my production servers. But goddamned it, Its my phone that I paid for, and why can't I have full access over it?

Well, I won't buy such a phone then. Or at least, not from those companies. If only everyone would do this. :smith:

[QUOTE=nikomo;29011981]You're missing the point entirely. And if you let them start with a phone, what next? Your TV? Then maybe your computer monitors? Maybe then you have to have a certified computer to work with you monitor?[/QUOTE] When the hell was the last time you installed Linux on your TV

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