Should men have a say in abortion when it comes to their child? - General

The say or "choice" of men can be disregarded when it comes to having a child or aborting it, even when it's his own child that can possibly be given complete life or aborted. Currently, this leads to the notion "the child belongs to the mother more" until money is needed and the woman turns to the man and says "pay up, your the dad." Or situations where a woman wants a child, but the father doesn't if he thinks they aren't ready and vice-versa. Of course, people will say "It's the woman's body, it's her right to choose!" couldn't the same be said for male circumcision? It's the child's body, so shouldn't he be able to decide for himself and not have it forced? [highlight](User was banned for this post ("No concrete debate presented" - Megafan))[/highlight]

He can have an opinion on it, but ultimately its up to the woman with the baby. Basically what I'm saying is that the man cannot force the woman into having a baby, he can discourage/encourage but in the end its the choice of of the woman with what she wants to do with her baby. [editline]9th September 2012[/editline] Also circumcision and abortion are two COMPLETELY different things.

Yeah, but ultimately I think the woman should have the final say, for example in a court of law. It would just be something she is obliged to take into account, I guess.

[QUOTE=LtKyle2;37601216] Of course, people will say "It's the woman's body, it's her right to choose!" couldn't the same be said for male circumcision? It's the child's body, so shouldn't he be able to decide for himself and not have it forced?[/QUOTE] Exactly. The fact many males get circumcised at birth does not mean it would be reasonable to give the father the power to decide whether to get an abortion or not. It's exactly the other way around. The mother should always have the final word when it comes to abortion and yes, every man should be able to decide whether to get circumcized or not by himself. The fact that circumcising children is the norm in some cultures does not make it right.

If the girl still wants to have the baby after the father disagrees, she should be able to - yet no responsibility should fall on him, financially or otherwise (Your dad ran off, what a lousy father, having to pay loadsa emone etc).

[QUOTE=SCopE5000;37601531]If the girl still wants to have the baby after the father disagrees, she should be able to - yet no responsibility should fall on him, financially or otherwise (Your dad ran off, what a lousy father, having to pay loadsa emone etc).[/QUOTE] Then again, it is his fault for getting her pregnant in the first place, since the most common cause is simply that birth control isn't used. Doesn't take much to actually use condoms. And yes, the responsibility is on both parties, but in the end WE put on the condoms so it is OUR responsibility to use them. Cases where they break are pretty rare.

Her body, her baby. Maybe the man can try to talk her out of it but I don't like the idea of someone having a legal say in whether someone can or cannot have an abortion, they're not the ones going through pregnancy.

I'd say the man shouldn't have a direct say on the abortion, but it should someting that gets talked about amongst the couple. Though I'd assume most abortions are done with the man having no idea that an abortion even took place. But at the same time, I believe there should be a legal procedure for the man to drop responsibility from a kid he is aware about during the time an abortion is possible. The man would still be recognised as a father (it's good for things like medical records and such), but he would not have an obligation of care. It's basically an insurance for the man of not having to directly care for a kid he never wanted in the first place. As pregnancy protection should fall to both parties. Of course this procedure should not be possible after abortion is not possible either.

[QUOTE=Craigewan;37602578]Then again, it is his fault for getting her pregnant in the first place, since the most common cause is simply that birth control isn't used. Doesn't take much to actually use condoms. And yes, the responsibility is on both parties, but in the end WE put on the condoms so it is OUR responsibility to use them. Cases where they break are pretty rare.[/QUOTE] A condom broke for me the other day, it was a pretty weird moment. I really don't think it's as rare an occurrence as some people say; it's the second time, now. A man shouldn't have any legal say, but I reserve the right to have nothing to do with a child if I get someone pregnant for whatever reason. Frankly even if I didn't use contraception I still think it's a freedom I should legitimately have. It's a dick move to put so much pressure on a woman to get an abortion, but it's more of a dick move to pressure somebody to devote the entirety of his future to a project he doesn't want to be part of. It's not our responsibility unless we're a rapist (stds aside, that is); the woman is the one who's body is affected so all responsibility lies on her. Don't want to have a baby with an absent father? Then don't consent to my cock inside you.

The woman has the final say, even though in my opinion I don't think it's right. I would be devastated and would try my best to convince my wife otherwise if I figured out that she was going to abort my little boy or little girl. I don't think I would even be able to look her in the eye after that. [QUOTE=Robbobin;37603006] Don't want to have a baby with an absent father? Then don't consent to my cock inside you.[/QUOTE] You can't completely blame the woman. You both agreed to have sex, do it the wrong way and there will be consequences. You can coward away from those consequences if you want to, but I think it would be a damn shame that a boy or girl doesn't have a father because he decided to run off.

I'd say the women has the last word on it, since she needs to bear it.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;37603006]A condom broke for me the other day, it was a pretty weird moment. I really don't think it's as rare an occurrence as some people say; it's the second time, now. A man shouldn't have any legal say, but I reserve the right to have nothing to do with a child if I get someone pregnant for whatever reason. Frankly even if I didn't use contraception I still think it's a freedom I should legitimately have. It's a dick move to put so much pressure on a woman to get an abortion, but it's more of a dick move to pressure somebody to devote the entirety of his future to a project he doesn't want to be part of. It's not our responsibility unless we're a rapist (stds aside, that is); the woman is the one who's body is affected so all responsibility lies on her. Don't want to have a baby with an absent father? Then don't consent to my cock inside you.[/QUOTE] It's happened to me twice in four years of steady sex, so I'd say that works out as pretty rare. And if you didn't want to have children, use protection, don't get her pregnant in the first place. Chances are you're the one who fucked up (By not using contraception in the first place), and thus what happens afterward is in some way your responsibility. And yeah, her body, her decision, but the male's choice should carry some weight (I imagine working that out is one for the courts)

Oh it would absolutely be a shame, but I don't think it's cowardice to not want to dedicate your life to something. If anything, I see the coward as the one succumbing to pressure and denying his own chance at fulfillment for something that doesn't even exist yet. The woman is the one going through the act of actually growing the child for 9 months inside her. If she's aware of the circumstances, she is fully responsible for what happens with her body (assuming she has the facilities for an abortion, otherwise circumstances are very different). My stance is that if I make it clear to a woman that in the event of her becoming pregnant, I will have nothing to do with such a baby, she is fully responsible for any pregnancy. I really don't see how a case can be made any other way. If a woman can't bare the thought of an abortion or being a single parent, you're making a horrible mistake by consenting to an act that could realistically land you in just that situation. [editline]9th September 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Craigewan;37603314]It's happened to me twice in four years of steady sex, so I'd say that works out as pretty rare. And if you didn't want to have children, use protection, don't get her pregnant in the first place. Chances are you're the one who fucked up (By not using contraception in the first place), and thus what happens afterward is in some way your responsibility. And yeah, her body, her decision, but the male's choice should carry some weight (I imagine working that out is one for the courts)[/QUOTE] How's it my responsibility if I happened to refuse to use a condom (I never would, personally, but imagine I did))? Unless I'm raping her she has every opportunity to say no.

If you are willing to marry, you are willing to share yourself with your partner. This should only affect married couples as to make an aversion to the issue, though a child belongs to the father (I'd rather say husband and wife, since the fathers of children spawned by adultery shouldn't have a say. Ultimately the victim should have a say, husband or wife.) just as much as the mother. In return, a wife should have the decision of whether her husband remains fertile, among other decisions that could affect both of them. If you want to avoid belonging to and having possession over another, don't marry, or have some other type of bonding ceremony. [editline]10th September 2012[/editline] Or make it an additional 'vow' for legal marriages.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;37603006]A condom broke for me the other day, it was a pretty weird moment. I really don't think it's as rare an occurrence as some people say; it's the second time, now. A man shouldn't have any legal say, but I reserve the right to have nothing to do with a child if I get someone pregnant for whatever reason. Frankly even if I didn't use contraception I still think it's a freedom I should legitimately have. It's a dick move to put so much pressure on a woman to get an abortion, but it's more of a dick move to pressure somebody to devote the entirety of his future to a project he doesn't want to be part of. It's not our responsibility unless we're a rapist (stds aside, that is); the woman is the one who's body is affected so all responsibility lies on her. Don't want to have a baby with an absent father? Then don't consent to my cock inside you.[/QUOTE] Uh. Really? If you don't want to be a father, don't have sex. It's a risk you're taking. If a woman is having a baby and you're the father, you have every moral and legal obligation to support the kid. [editline]9th September 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Robbobin;37603363]How's it my responsibility if I happened to refuse to use a condom (I never would, personally, but imagine I did))? Unless I'm raping her she has every opportunity to say no.[/QUOTE] ... I can't believe anyone could actually say this. You want to have sex, you have to deal with the possible consequences. It's not the "woman's fault" because she didn't say no. By that strand of logic, it should be your fault, because you agreed as well.

Postman is right in a way, you are both equally responsible, but that should mean that you both have a legal say over the existence of the child.

[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;37609674]Postman is right in a way, you are both equally responsible, but that should mean that you both have a legal say over the existence of the child.[/QUOTE] I don't quite think so. While both parents are responsible, the mother ought to be the one with the final say. The baby develops in her body, and she's the one that goes through childbirth. Let's be perfectly honest here: men have it easy in regards to kids. A man has no right to force a woman to get an abortion, nor does he have a right to force her to have a child. It's her body, the man already made a commitment by having sex. Now, in an ideal scenario, the man and woman should talk and discuss the fate of the pregnancy civilly and productively. But for the sake of simplicity, the woman should always have the final, legal say.

[QUOTE=Craigewan;37602578]Then again, it is his fault for getting her pregnant in the first place, since the most common cause is simply that birth control isn't used. Doesn't take much to actually use condoms. And yes, the responsibility is on both parties, but in the end WE put on the condoms so it is OUR responsibility to use them. Cases where they break are pretty rare.[/QUOTE] Women can take birth control, there's female condoms, etc... It's not all the guy's fault she got pregnant, that's sexism.

I really don't see why the fathers can't have a say. Or even men unrelated to it. I'd compare it to a business man and his workers. Sure, the workers are going to have all the work of building the factory and maintaining it, but the business man also invested to make the factory happen. And even if both agree, if the building is set to be built on a graveyard, people have the right to complain, you know what I mean? As in a case, let's say, of consenting teen pregnancy, outer parties such as the parents should still have a say. Honestly, I just think "rights to decision" mean very little in debates which is what ultimately matters here.

[QUOTE=draugur;37609911]Women can take birth control, there's female condoms, etc... It's not all the guy's fault she got pregnant, that's sexism.[/QUOTE] If the guy specifically doesn't want to become a father than it is his full responsibility to wear a condom. If he has sex without a condom, he is accepting the risks that are associated with that.

How would they even know who the father is? They can't run dna tests that early in a pregnancy can they? Anyone could come up and claim to be the father so in the end it would always be up to the woman to decide either way would it not? It would be her call if she wants to lie and say he's not the father even if he is.

[QUOTE=postmanX3;37609894]I don't quite think so. While both parents are responsible, the mother ought to be the one with the final say. The baby develops in her body, and she's the one that goes through childbirth. Let's be perfectly honest here: men have it easy in regards to kids. A man has no right to force a woman to get an abortion, nor does he have a right to force her to have a child. It's her body, the man already made a commitment by having sex. Now, in an ideal scenario, the man and woman should talk and discuss the fate of the pregnancy civilly and productively. But for the sake of simplicity, the woman should always have the final, legal say.[/QUOTE] That puts men in a bad position though, regardless. Even if it is her body being used for gestation, it is just as much his child. Simply because pregnancy is a hard and long process doesn't mean it should effect legality and equality, the situation could be averted somewhat by making the entire 'you own your partner and your partner owns you' idea a legal option/ceremony to couples. [editline]10th September 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Lilyo;37610584]How would they even know who the father is? They can't run dna tests that early in a pregnancy can they? Anyone could come up and claim to be the father so in the end it would always be up to the woman to decide either way would it not? It would be her call if she wants to lie and say he's not the father even if he is.[/QUOTE] That could be solved in a custody issue or post birth.