Germany - Syrian refugee on trial for throwing his children out of a window - Polidicks

[QUOTE]The trial of a Syrian man accused of throwing his three children out of a window at a refugee shelter has started. He was allegedly frustrated because his wife refused "to accept the roles they had back home." On Tuesday, a Bonn court charged a 36-year-old Syrian man with three counts of attempted murder and grievous bodily harm. Prosecutors say the suspect admitted to throwing his children out of a window because he wanted to punish his wife. In February, he allegedly grabbed his three young children after an argument with his wife and threw them out of the first-floor window of a refugee shelter - a former Chinese restaurant where the family was housed in Lohmar, a town near Bonn. [/QUOTE] Source: [url]http://www.dw.com/en/syrian-refugee-on-trial-for-throwing-his-children-out-of-a-window/a-19563930[/url]

Deranged motherfucker.

[quote]He was allegedly frustrated because his wife refused "to accept the roles they had back home."[/quote] And thats my issue with this entire thing. When we mass import refugees like this by the boatload, they're not coming clean. They're coming with the exact same standards and morals that made the place they're escaping from what it is. And with the sheer amount we're bringing in, it's not going to end up well.

[QUOTE]He was allegedly frustrated because his wife refused "to accept the roles they had back home."[/QUOTE] This is the more major issue with accepting refugees from a culture so vastly different. The risk of terrorism is always blown out of proportion but people often forget to even mention culture clash. This guy was literally willing to throw his kids out of the window to punish his wife for not accepting their traditional family roles, he clearly does not belong in a western country (not that I think they should be able to force this [i]anywhere[/i] ofc). I had a few friends from countries like Iran and Saudia Arabia in highschool whose families actually moved to Canada to try and give their daughters a better life, and I worry about the effects of importing such a huge number of people that do not agree with this ideal

[QUOTE=Seerus;51079638]And thats my issue with this entire thing. When we mass import refugees like this by the boatload, they're not coming clean. They're coming with the exact same standards and morals that made the place they're escaping from what it is. And with the sheer amount we're bringing in, it's not going to end up well.[/QUOTE] Yeah and in this case 4 out the 5 will now have a better life because they won't have to put up with their dad anymore.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;51079653]Yeah and in this case 4 out the 5 will now have a better life because they won't have to put up with their dad anymore.[/QUOTE] Which is fantastic news for them, although it's not so clear they're out of the woods because typically families that suffer from abuse have a hard time separating. It mentions in the article some previous abuse, this isn't an isolated incident. A practical problem with trying to house this many refugees is that the entire process from holding them while processing them, and trying to house them afterwards, leaves them essentially caged with many of the type of people they're trying to run from. There's enormous reports of widespread abuse in refugee shelters, and if fleeing all the way from Syria to Germany and having to stay in a shelter with people that make you afraid to use the bathroom isn't depressing I don't know what is

Cruel and unusual punishment incoming. But what if we just parachute him back to the deepest recess of the war zone he escaped?

I think people expect these refugees/migrants to come to the west and see the light. Their culture is very much entwined with their religion and is so deep seated that this simply won't happen. Good luck for the future Europe.

[QUOTE=karlosfandango;51080008]I think people expect these refugees/migrants to come to the west and see the light. Their culture is very much entwined with their religion and is so deep seated that this simply won't happen. Good luck for the future Europe.[/QUOTE] 'These refugees' are 9/10 times giving no issue and trying to get by.

[QUOTE=Cructo;51080054]Can you provide a source for that statistic you just invented? By the way, it's really easy to say you want to get away from conflict but still keep up with your opressive beliefs in your own family. Just because they don't affect you with them doesn't mean their families are doing better.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.thelocal.de/20151113/police-refugees-commit-less-crimes-than-germans[/url]

[QUOTE=TheBloodyNine;51080037]'These refugees' are 9/10 times giving no issue and trying to get by.[/QUOTE] Time will tell.

People who look at these articles as evidence against refugees use the same logic as those who claim all "cops are pigs" after reading a few isolated incidents of bad police officers. [QUOTE]the plural of anecdotal isn't evidence [/QUOTE]

And yet "Ethnically german man kills child" is never posted here even though I'd venture a guess that it happens a lot more frequently. The people posting these articles have such a transparent narrative. That isn't to say there aren't large cultural adjustments and clashes that need to be addressed (as has happened many times in the United State I might add) but acting like Germany is now full of Muslims throwing children out of windows is just bullshit.

[QUOTE=NoOneKnowsMe;51080103][url]http://www.thelocal.de/20151113/police-refugees-commit-less-crimes-than-germans[/url][/QUOTE] [QUOTE]refugees commit less crime than Germans[/QUOTE] What a stupid title, nothing of that can be seen in the statistics they use, there's no comparison. And going by the police report of the whole year 2015, Syrians are now the migrant-group that commits the most crime in Germany (more than Turks, which we have more of). That alone makes it impossible for them to have a lower rate than native Germans.

[QUOTE=Elspin;51079645]This is the more major issue with accepting refugees from a culture so vastly different. The risk of terrorism is always blown out of proportion but people often forget to even mention culture clash. This guy was literally willing to throw his kids out of the window to punish his wife for not accepting their traditional family roles, he clearly does not belong in a western country (not that I think they should be able to force this [i]anywhere[/i] ofc). I had a few friends from countries like Iran and Saudia Arabia in highschool whose families actually moved to Canada to try and give their daughters a better life, and I worry about the effects of importing such a huge number of people that do not agree with this ideal[/QUOTE] We're not "importing" them they're running away from a war. Don't act like white people wouldn't clash cultures if they had to flee to places like Asia or the middle east. As for economic migrants posing as refugees (which you didn't mention but I'm sure would be brought up as a counter point) I'd much rather accidentally let in migrants who aren't fleeing war then send back true refugees into a war zone.

[QUOTE=Cructo;51080149] Nobody here is saying refugees are all criminals, just that many of them still hold opressive values in their own families, leading to things like what happened in the OP's article. [/QUOTE] Source?

[QUOTE=Cructo;51080149]Nice job posting something completely unrelated. Nobody here is saying refugees are all criminals, just that many of them still hold opressive values in their own families, leading to things like what happened in the OP's article. Not all of them are going to attempt to murder their own children to make sure their wives stay in line like that man, but many of them will still control their own people according to their arbitrary values[/QUOTE] For now i will ignore your baseless claim that "many" refugees do bad things. If you really care about the wellbeing of those people, would it not make more sense to let in refugees, and if any behavior poorly as in this article, just kick those guys out, and let their "victims" remain here and safe?

[QUOTE=Cructo;51080183][url]http://www.dw.com/en/syrian-refugee-on-trial-for-throwing-his-children-out-of-a-window/a-19563930[/url][/QUOTE] That's not a source for your claim that [U]many[/U] of them hold oppressive values and also cause similar crimes like the refugee in the OP.

[QUOTE=Cructo;51080197]Or maybe before inevitably taking them in, make sure they will integrate properly?[/QUOTE] Yes, that too, I completely agree with vetting

[QUOTE=Cructo;51080232]Before being refugees they were still Muslims, even if not all Muslims treat their families poorly in general (especially the women) a lot of them do and their beliefs won't change just because they moved countries.[/QUOTE] Yeah and people said for decades the Irish beat their families and that held just as much weight.

[QUOTE=Dolton;51080157]We're not "importing" them they're running away from a war. Don't act like white people wouldn't clash cultures if they had to flee to places like Asia or the middle east. As for economic migrants posing as refugees (which you didn't mention but I'm sure would be brought up as a counter point) I'd much rather accidentally let in migrants who aren't fleeing war then send back true refugees into a war zone.[/QUOTE] Are economic immigrants even granted asylum though? I agree that I'd rather accidentally let in a few (let's say up to 50%) migrants in order to help out refugees, but as far as I know asylum isn't granted to them - and until you get asylum you're not exactly living the dream of surviving off of generous welfare that native citizens otherwise would get.

[QUOTE=karlosfandango;51080008]I think people expect these refugees/migrants to come to the west and see the light. Their culture is very much entwined with their religion and is so deep seated that this simply won't happen. Good luck for the future Europe.[/QUOTE] Good luck future Europe, indeed! You are taking in a few hundred thousands of people into this continent - of almost 750 million people-, some of which are very backwards in their culture and religion.

[QUOTE=karlosfandango;51080104]Time will tell.[/QUOTE] Time to generic vague right-wing fearpost: 13 posts. It's not a record, but you tried at least. "Time" wont tell shit, evidence based statistics will tell shit however and they are currently telling us that a majority of refugees are actually seeking asylum from war and are not causing problems in their new host countries. Kinda like every other time we have a humanitarian refuge crisis. Though this one has that awful invention we call "THE INTERNET" to amplify the voices of idiots only pushing the worst behaved refugees to the forefront. not that you give a fuck lmao

[QUOTE=TheBloodyNine;51080254]Yeah and people said for decades the Irish beat their families and that held just as much weight.[/QUOTE] [t]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp4-2.png[/t] I realize these numbers will look vastly differently different for european and american muslims, but minorities among refugees such as assyrians, homosexuals and women face a lot of abuse and are partly being given seperate shelters, pretending like it is just racism doesn't make the problems go away. [url]http://www.thelocal.de/20160331/germanys-200-mio-against-sexual-assault-in-refugee-homes[/url] [url]http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/refugee-hostels-in-germany-beset-by-sexual-assault-a-1091681.html[/url] [url]http://www.thelocal.de/20160223/berlin-opens-germanys-first-gay-refugee-centre[/url] german source: [url]https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article152043117/Frauen-und-Christen-fliehen-aus-den-Unterkuenften.html[/url] [QUOTE=da space core;51080186]For now i will ignore your baseless claim that "many" refugees do bad things. If you really care about the wellbeing of those people, would it not make more sense to let in refugees, and if any behavior poorly as in this article, just kick those guys out, and let their "victims" remain here and safe?[/QUOTE] The problem is that many countries simply refuse to take back refugees that are supposed to be deported and it is currently far to easy to cheat the system. Some even intentionally commit crimes again to delay deportation. [quote] the deportation of three refugees from North Rhine-Westphalia into the African Guinea has cost more than 124,000 euros . [/quote] german source: [url]https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article156868407/So-entziehen-sich-Fluechtlinge-der-Abschiebung.html[/url]

[QUOTE=Niklas;51080315][t]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp4-2.png[/t] I realize these numbers will look vastly differently different for european and american muslims, but minorities among refugees such as assyrians, homosexuals and women face a lot of abuse and are partly being given seperate shelters, pretending like it is just racism doesn't make the problems go away. [url]http://www.thelocal.de/20160331/germanys-200-mio-against-sexual-assault-in-refugee-homes[/url] [url]http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/refugee-hostels-in-germany-beset-by-sexual-assault-a-1091681.html[/url] [url]http://www.thelocal.de/20160223/berlin-opens-germanys-first-gay-refugee-centre[/url] german source: [url]https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article152043117/Frauen-und-Christen-fliehen-aus-den-Unterkuenften.html[/url] The problem is that many countries simply refuse to take back refugees that a supposed to be deported and it is currently far to easy to cheat the system german source: [url]https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article156868407/So-entziehen-sich-Fluechtlinge-der-Abschiebung.html[/url][/QUOTE] The Pew poll is also old. The most recent was in 2014, which, while it didn't poll with the same questions, showed Muslims have been [URL="http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/"]moderating greatly[/URL] in the last few years. You're also ignoring other parts of the poll, such where when asked about the struggle between fundamentalists and moderates, most Muslims say they support moderates. And then there's the issue that this is polling Muslims in the Middle East, not those who made the journey west or were exposed to western culture. And finally, many of their views are not against the norm for many nations. Higher because of the poverty and the normality of violence in those areas, but in the United States: [t]http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/ADGC/dc9cv60zzueyxmetzmzyxa.png[/t] Americans are more likely to support violence against civilians than in Bangladesh or the Congo. [t]http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/ADGC/yrawgoykakayfhwm4ayuqq.png[/t] And in the Middle East / North Africa, their opinion on the issue of targetting civilians is almost the same as the US / Canada. Hell, slightly more North Americans view it as justified / sometimes justified. You can grab a dozen people off the street / on this forum / from wherever and many of them will express some horrifying views. That's life. Other issues with the Pew Poll is their questions. When asked about terrorism justification, Muslims were asked if it was justified [I]in defense of Islam.[/I] This will mean you'll have polls a lot higher in areas where Muslims have felt persecuted against by people of other religions, which is almost the entire Middle East.

should have just given him more time for integration

[QUOTE=Seerus;51079638]And thats my issue with this entire thing. When we mass import refugees like this by the boatload, they're not coming clean. They're coming with the exact same standards and morals that made the place they're escaping from what it is. And with the sheer amount we're bringing in, it's not going to end up well.[/QUOTE] Consider the fact that the man's wife refused to be as subservient as she was when they were living in Syria. A huge portion of the refugees coming to Germany have already begun to integrate, adopt German principles and values. I think Merkel accepting so many in such a short period of time might not have been wise, but it was still good of her to take in more than Germany's share, when most of the rest of Europe wasn't pulling their weight.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;51079653]Yeah and in this case 4 out the 5 will now have a better life because they won't have to put up with their dad anymore.[/QUOTE] If they were indifferent enough towards the actions of this supposed "1 out of 5" that it so freely perpetuated in their old country, thats not going to be any different now either. Like it or not, Syria didn't become the hellhole it is because of "1 out of 5". We can move Syria's population from one geographical location to another, that's not going to magically change their minds. The Middle East has been the way it is for thousands of years for a reason and it's a testament to our conceit that we think suddenly we have the answer that the Syrian people could never have possibly considered -- [I]we'll just throw laws at them[/I] We'll magically cure generations of conflict by mingling them with us! That illusion will inevitably be shattered when they either fail to or refuse to integrate, forming their ethnic enclaves (anyone who doesn't think this is an inevitability is the pure DEFINITION of naive, this happens pretty much anywhere large groups of people with similar backgrounds emigrate and the only difference is they aren't emigrating from war-ravaged hellholes) in which things like the OP incident will be allowed to fester as they fall back into the old ways because it's what they know. [editline]20th September 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=archangel125;51080512]Consider the fact that the man's wife refused to be as subservient as she was when they were living in Syria. A huge portion of the refugees coming to Germany have already begun to integrate, adopt German principles and values. I think Merkel accepting so many in such a short period of time might not have been wise, but it was still good of her to take in more than Germany's share, when most of the rest of Europe wasn't pulling their weight.[/QUOTE] Also take into consideration the fact that the man's wife is in the minority even without looking at the bigger picture and seeing that a disproportionate amount of inbound immigrants are single men with no reason to adopt German livelihood. And no, it was not good of Merkel at all to do what she did. Germany had an expressed "share" for a reason. By exceeding that projection, we're doing more than just soaking in extra progressive points. We're promising a comped, inclusive, idealistic lifestyle that we are NOT going to be able to support in the long run. When that inevitably falls through and the quality of life in the places we settle these refugees in takes a nose dive, they are inevitably going to become disenfranchised and angry because we couldn't follow through with our promise. In the best case scenario the areas will see an increase of crime, in the worst they'll regress to Syrian lifestyle, just like the father did. Integration will be a joke and they'll have even less of a reason to completely change their lives to suit us. Don't forget that the states that promise the biggest payout are the biggest destinations for refugees. They're more concerned with the money than they are considering whether or not the state will be able to safely follow through and support them. When that money disappears, what do you think is going to happen to the people?

[QUOTE=Seerus;51080527]If they were indifferent enough towards the actions of this supposed "1 out of 5" that it so freely perpetuated in their old country, thats not going to be any different now either. Like it or not, Syria didn't become the hellhole it is because of "1 out of 5". We can move Syria's population from one geographical location to another, that's not going to magically change their minds. The Middle East has been the way it is for thousands of years for a reason and it's a testament to our conceit that we think suddenly we have the answer that the Syrian people could never have possibly considered -- [I]we'll just throw laws at them[/I] We'll magically cure generations of conflict by mingling them with us! That illusion will inevitably be shattered when they either fail to or refuse to integrate, forming their ethnic enclaves (anyone who doesn't think this is an inevitability is the pure DEFINITION of naive, this happens pretty much anywhere large groups of people with similar backgrounds emigrate and the only difference is they aren't emigrating from war-ravaged hellholes) in which things like the OP incident will be allowed to fester as they fall back into the old ways because it's what they know.[/QUOTE] I don't think it's gonna be easy, but you don't have to be naive to conclude that there's a huge [I]humanitarian[/I] crisis going on, and that we need to do something to help the victims of it. I'll be the first to admit that integration is a long process, and that parallel societies are - sadly - very much a thing. But the people who like to state these facts often seem to forget that things have been improving (at least in Denmark) for a long time. More people with non-Western backgrounds are getting higher education (which is - anecdotally - very much apparent where I study), crime is down and more people are working. Integration is slow, but it's not [I]impossible[/I]. I also think you're forgetting, in this case, that those kids were thrown out of the window because they and their mother didn't conform to their usual (in this family) roles, so they weren't exactly "indifferent". I think you'll find that dysfunctional families even in Western countries also stick together for reasons that aren't entirely logical. Beyond this, I don't really want to argue about this particular case, because while I find it easy to believe that many of these refugees have views that I would find sexist, racist, bigoted and insane (so do a frankly frighteningly large number of Danes, though), 3 out of 5 refugees haven't been thrown out of a window, so my guess is that this example is at the extreme end of the spectrum.

[QUOTE=TheBloodyNine;51080453]The Pew poll is also old. The most recent was in 2014, which, while it didn't poll with the same questions, showed Muslims have been [URL="http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/"]moderating greatly[/URL] in the last few years.[/QUOTE] While some of the percentages might seem low, support for a terrorist organisation being any higher than 1% is cause for extreme alarm IMO. If any part of my country polled for 23% support of al qaeda a state of emergency would likely be called. [QUOTE]You're also ignoring other parts of the poll, such where when asked about the struggle between fundamentalists and moderates, most Muslims say they support moderates.[/QUOTE] Which is good, but it's important to keep in mind that while fundamentalists over there are pretty well understood, their idea of a moderate is not necessarily the same as ours [QUOTE]And then there's the issue that this is polling Muslims in the Middle East, not those who made the journey west or were exposed to western culture.[/QUOTE] True, but at least in the short term when they arrive this is the most accurate representation of their beliefs as they're not going to dramatically shift in such a short time. [QUOTE]And finally, many of their views are not against the norm for many nations. Higher because of the poverty and the normality of violence in those areas, but in the United States: [t]http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/ADGC/dc9cv60zzueyxmetzmzyxa.png[/t] Americans are more likely to support violence against civilians than in Bangladesh or the Congo. [t]http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/ADGC/yrawgoykakayfhwm4ayuqq.png[/t][/QUOTE] I mean the information is a bit conflicted, you've kinda ignored the fact that the 2nd chart also show North Americans are the 2nd most likely to say it's never justified, and the 2nd lowest percentage of people who say it's sometimes justified or depends. I honestly expected that place to be taken by Europe. I also find it hard to believe these charts are honest (and a source would be nice, is it also pew?) given the world's state of affairs right now, even if they're accurately reporting what people said. It could just represent how infrequently governments are responsible to what their majority populations want, but it could also be like the pew european trustworthiness poll where the results were just stupid (some conflicting data etc)