Alabama senate votes to allow church to form own police force - Polidicks

[quote]The Alabama Senate has voted to allow a church to form its own police force. Lawmakers on Tuesday voted 24-4 to allow Briarwood Presbyterian church in Birmingham to establish a law enforcement department. The church says it needs its own police officers to keep its school as well as its more than 4,000 person congregation safe. Critics of the bill argue that a police department that reports to church officials could be used to cover up crimes. The state has given a few private universities the authority to have a police force, but never a church or non-school entity. Police experts have said such a police department would be unprecedented in the US. A similar bill is also scheduled to be debated in the House on Tuesday.[/quote] Very short article: [url]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/11/alabama-church-police-force-senate-vote?CMP=edit_2221[/url]

Tbh I had to doublecheck both your thread history and if that guardian site wasn't fake cus I couldn't believe how stupid those news are. Like. Nevermind, I can't even begin.

This isnt a violation of church/state seperation?

the south is fucking insane

[quote]The state has given a few private universities the authority to have a police force[/quote] This is almost as bad. Private organizations should not have the ability to assign people as police officers. Government run police forces already lack adequate oversight as it is. Like, don't they have open/concealed carry and self-defense laws in Alabama? Why does the church need people with some special privileged status being "police officers" to protect themselves?

[QUOTE=nox;52094473]This isnt a violation of church/state seperation?[/QUOTE] [del]Not sure if this is true, so feel free to correct me, but there's apparently not actually any formal separation of Church and state. It's basically just a saying.[/del] I was wrong.

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52094512]Not sure if this is true, so feel free to correct me, but there's apparently not actually any formal separation of Church and state. It's basically just a saying.[/QUOTE] it's in the first amendment [quote]"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" [/quote]

[QUOTE=DaMastez;52094503]This is almost as bad. Private organizations should not have the ability to assign people as police officers. Government run police forces already lack adequate oversight as it is. Like, don't they have open/concealed carry and self-defense laws in Alabama? Why does the church need people with some special privileged status being "police officers" to protect themselves?[/QUOTE]In so far as our universities are concerned, the bigger ones (like mine) are small towns in their own right. Last I recall, there were something like 15000 - 20000 students and the campus is spread out over most of the southern side of the city. So basically Birmingham proper gets its own police force, and UAB gets it own, that way each can handle its area more effectively. We also get these roughly every 50 yards: [t]https://uab.edu/police/images/UAB-help-box-lens-100x312.png[/t] Which call directly to the UAB police department. Also, UAB is technically a state/public university part of the University of Alabama system.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;52094555]In so far as our universities are concerned, the bigger ones (like mine) are small towns in their own right. Last I recall, there were something like 15000 - 20000 students and the campus is spread out over most of the southern side of the city. So basically Birmingham proper gets its own police force, and UAB gets it own, that way each can handle its area more effectively. We also get these roughly every 50 yards: [t]https://uab.edu/police/images/UAB-help-box-lens-100x312.png[/t] Which call directly to the UAB police department. Also, UAB is technically a state/public university part of the University of Alabama system.[/QUOTE] The police at Penn State are essentially an entire force unto themselves. IIRC they have a chief, their own patrol cars, and even a holding cell if I'm not mistaken, though that might just be the local drunk tank.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52094583]The police at Penn State are essentially an entire force unto themselves. IIRC they have a chief, their own patrol cars, and even a holding cell if I'm not mistaken, though that might just be the local drunk tank.[/QUOTE] We have that as well.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;52094597]We have that as well.[/QUOTE] But I believe colleges and such could get a minor slide since they're places of education with a lot of young adults that are not only at risk of hurting themselves/one another, but also just to keep the peace in case of a riot, natural disaster or school shooting. A church getting its own police force is quite different.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52094603]A church getting its own police force is quite different.[/QUOTE] Well yeah, I was just responding their remark about universities getting them being almost as bad.

Hey conservatives, remember that 'Sharia Law' thing you guys freak out about every once in a while? Well, [i]funny story...[/i]

[QUOTE=nox;52094473]This isnt a violation of church/state seperation?[/QUOTE] Nope! The Constitution does not allow or forbid anyone from having a police force. Professional police were almost unheard of at the time, I only know of France employing such a system. Most countries relied on a variety of systems including city guards, watchmen, elected sheriffs, and private bounty hunters to bring criminals to the courts. Modern policing didn't begin to appear in many places until the Industrial Revolution, which expanded city populations to such a point that volunteer or unpaid elected officials were no longer effective. Since the Constitution was written before the widespread appearance of professional policing, police forces are not mentioned one way or the other. Instead the 10th Amendment states that any duties not granted to the Federal Government or prohibited to States are up to the States to carry out as they wish. That means police services are not constitutionally restricted to the government or anyone else, so Alabama can grant the chruch their own police if they want to.

How long until Alabama grants them their own courts too?

you idiots are blowing this way out of proportion .. it's basically a private security force, lots of large organizations have these. just like the article says, universities have them too. it has nothing to do with church/state separation or the first amendment.

[QUOTE=nox;52094473]This isnt a violation of church/state seperation?[/QUOTE] How does allowing a church to have a police force go against the establishment clause? "Separation of church and state" is not written in the Constitution. It's a phrase associated with the Establishment Clause of the first amendment. It only forbids the government from establishing a religion, or forcing religion upon you. It makes it illegal for Congress to mandate kids say a prayer in public school. It doesn't mean state and local governments can't pass laws regarding religious institutions. (unless that law violates it(must be protestant to live here, etc)) It makes it illegal for the government to ban religious exercise. The Establishment Clause was written in response to established state religions among colonies, and the fact that many residents were there because they were fleeing religious persecution from other nations. The freedom to exercise religion without persecution was therefore very important. It doesn't mean these church police are going to be arresting Muslims or making laws based on faith. That's not how policing works. They have to abide by the same local laws that ISD Police, College Police, and Local Police have to abide by. It's basically just adding yet another layer of law enforcement to the area. Since you still have a right to worship whatever you want or the lack thereof in this county, your first amendment has not been violated. At 4,000 people, this church has more attendees than my high school and college. Both of which had their own armed police force.

and what exactly are they supposed to be protecting themselves from again? [QUOTE=Judas;52094499]the south is fucking insane[/QUOTE] hey bwah don'tch yew go generalizin' us lahk that nawh, y'hear

[QUOTE=grr164;52094682]Hey conservatives, remember that 'Sharia Law' thing you guys freak out about every once in a while? Well, [i]funny story...[/i][/QUOTE] No, see its ok when Christians do it.

in another political atmosphere this would be totally unacceptable.

Nobody expected the Alabaman Inquisition.

Really so long as the police force does not arrest someone due to religious issues, I don't see a conflict between church and state. And the precedent for giving private institutions (schools) a private police force has already been set. I just hope that the officers in that department are actually trained as a police force and not just volunteers from the congregation with zero knowledge of what they're doing. I can't imagine having a congregation of 4,000 some people. The largest turn-out my church ever had was about 200 people total.

Found an aerial of the church, by the way: [t]https://photos.smugmug.com/Aerial-Photography/Aerial/i-3vLVLXT/1/L/Briarwood%20Pres-L.jpg[/t]

Can't wait for the Satanist church to make the same application.

[t]http://i.imgur.com/LvpALS6.png[/t] It has a fucking radio station it operates. And apparently Brazilian outreach? What? I have lived in this city my whole life and I have never even heard of this place. I mean, I live to the northeast of the city, and Briarwood is southeast, but I'd still imagine I'd have heard of it before now.

[QUOTE=grr164;52094682]Hey conservatives, remember that 'Sharia Law' thing you guys freak out about every once in a while? Well, [i]funny story...[/i][/QUOTE] This has absolutely no correlation with Sharia law since the government is not establishing a doctrine of religious law. The police will exist as a function of the organization. The police will be bound by the same law as all other police, not religious law.

[QUOTE=OvB;52097265]This has absolutely no correlation with Sharia law since the government is not establishing a doctrine of religious law. The police will exist as a function of the organization. The police will be bound by the same law as all other police, not religious law.[/QUOTE] the church's police answer to the church first then to the law later when theyve been sued.

idk why stupid people seem to assume these guys getting a police force implies religious oppression or fanaticism is going to take over. religion in the united states (with a couple of exceptions like mormons or anabaptists) is in decline and its influence is getting weaker. a police office for a massive school-church complex isnt unprecedented nor is it a bad thing

Holy shit we are living in regressive times

[QUOTE=CrumbleShake;52098046]Holy shit we are living in regressive times[/QUOTE] Way to overreact