• Swiss voters back new law that allows for more government surveillance
    21 replies, posted
[QUOTE] Swiss voters have given a strong approval to a law on new surveillance powers for the intelligence agencies. The new law would allow the authorities to tap phones, snoop on email and deploy hidden cameras and bugs. Some 65.5% of voters agreed to accept the proposal. It will allow the Federal Intelligence Service and other agencies to put suspects under electronic surveillance if authorised by a court, the defence ministry and the cabinet. The Swiss government says the powers would be used about once a month to monitor the highest-risk suspects. The new law was not comparable to the spying capabilities of the US or other major powers, which "go well beyond what is desired in terms of individual liberty and security for our citizens", Defence Minister Guy Parmelin said earlier this year.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37465853[/url] I was kind of surprised to see that this got so much support from the people. Looks like Edward Snowden et al. have barely left an impact on the minds of people compared to the terror attacks of recent.
[QUOTE=Doom64hunter;51103799] I was kind of surprised to see that this got so much support from the people. Looks like Edward Snowden et al. have barely left an impact on the minds of people compared to the terror attacks of recent.[/QUOTE]What was Snowden supposed to leave on peoples' minds? That government is spying on us? For most people that changes literally nothing.
It is interesting to point out that I believe the UK government were trying to increase surveillance on people but the EU blocked it because of potential for human rights abuses, iirc. And now the UK are leaving and won't have to follow that. And May, who pushed for that bill, is the new Prime Minister. It appears that Snowden's message as fallen on deaf ears.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51103834]It is interesting to point out that I believe the UK government were trying to increase surveillance on people but the EU blocked it because of potential for human rights abuses, iirc. And now the UK are leaving and won't have to follow that. And May, who pushed for that bill, is the new Prime Minister. It appears that Snowden's message as fallen on deaf ears.[/QUOTE] Because the vast majority of people, do not care it has no actual impact on their lives.
[QUOTE=Thomo_UK;51103839]Because the vast majority of people, do not care it has no actual impact on their lives.[/QUOTE] It may not have a 'direct' impact on their lives but it sets a very dangerous precedent. Now, I don't ascribe to slippery slope arguments because they're usually awful and ignorant of the facts of the matter, but I think it should frighten people that everyone, instead of a few select individuals where there is substantial proof they might be a threat, are being spied upon - especially since it does not appear to have lead to increased security. Why would they be doing this otherwise?
Kinda depressing really, but it's to be expected that people will limit their freedoms for a bit of security theater.
this is how the west falls not in capability, but in spirit
[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;51103969]this is how the west falls not in capability, but in spirit[/QUOTE] Oh, and your poet Eliot had it all wrong, THIS is the way the world ends. Not with a bang, but with a whimper. At-least, that's what I would be saying if I wanted to be melodramatic. :V
Worth noting is that this does not give the NDB the ability to do whatever they want, and get informations trough any means possible. The proposed changes are not as bad as people say it is. [quote=http://www.vbs.admin.ch/de/themen/nachrichtenbeschaffung/nachrichtendienstgesetz.html] Die im NDG vorgesehenen neuen Mittel zur Informationsbeschaffung sind nur dann vorgesehen, wenn sie zuvor durch drei Instanzen bewilligt worden sind: Bundesverwaltungsgericht, Sicherheitsausschuss des Bundesrates und Chef VBS. [/quote] Basically, all methods of gathering informations have to be evaluated and approved by 3 seperate parties. 1. The Federal Administrative Court 2. The Committee of General Security of the Swiss Federal Council 3. The Military [quote=http://www.vbs.admin.ch/de/themen/nachrichtenbeschaffung/nachrichtendienstgesetz.html] Genehmigungspflichtige Beschaffungsmassnahmen sind das Überwachen des Post- und Fernmeldeverkehrs, der Einsatz von Ortungs- und Überwachungsgeräten an nicht öffentlichen Orten, das Eindringen in Computersysteme und -netzwerke sowie das Durchsuchen von Räumlichkeiten, Fahrzeugen oder Behältnissen. Alle diese Massnahmen verschaffen dem NDB bessere Möglichkeiten zur Früherkennung und zum Schutz der Schweiz und ihrer Bevölkerung. [/quote] Basically the NDB requires a court order for the following things: 1. Gain Access to computer system and private networks 2. Physical access, searching and surveillance of private rooms. 3. Searching vehicles and other physical containers.
There would be no problem with government surveillance if the government was to be reliable. Many governments are so unreliable and unrepresentative of the people that it's an absurd thought, but perhaps the Swiss aren't in such a poor situation.
[QUOTE=Talishmar;51104153]There would be no problem with government surveillance if the government was to be reliable. Many governments are so unreliable and unrepresentative of the people that it's an absurd thought, but perhaps the Swiss aren't in such a poor situation.[/QUOTE] Also the public outrage about any abuse in this country would mean political suicide.
[QUOTE=VprVajraRpv;51104166]Also the public outrage about any abuse in this country would mean political suicide.[/QUOTE] the same could once have been said for the US, but as our government pushed fear of terrorism the populace stopped caring source: today's treatment of snowden and half the country thinking he's a traitor
[QUOTE]half the country thinking he's a traitor [/QUOTE] I see him as tragic hero that turned accidental traitor.
[QUOTE=Talishmar;51104153]There would be no problem with government surveillance if the government was to be reliable. Many governments are so unreliable and unrepresentative of the people that it's an absurd thought, but perhaps the Swiss aren't in such a poor situation.[/QUOTE] There's not a lot of room for the system to be abused in practice, as people who get arrested due to informations are still subject to an official trial. And in a trial, the NDB still has to prove how they got access to those informations, and in order for those evidence to be legally accepted, they have to be acquired trough 100% lawful means. If it turns out that evidence is collected using unapproved methods or without a warrant, then it will not be recognized as evidence, and the NDB will be in hot waters, both from the public and from politicians. Also the NDB is not as untouchable as the NSA, as a small comparison. After all, the NDB has some tight rules, even with the new legislation, and they also don't have as many employees (According to wikipedia, the entire NDB currently has 250 employed people) and funding for large scale orwellian surveillance.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51103813]What was Snowden supposed to leave on peoples' minds? That government is spying on us? For most people that changes literally nothing.[/QUOTE] Snowden's leaks actually fundamentally changed the culture of how US citizens thought about the NSA. In fact I think before the leaks most regular citizens didn't even know what the NSA was.
this law hopefully isnt a rubber stamp for mass survalence like we have in the US
[QUOTE=kaukassus;51104065]Basically the NDB requires a court order for the following things: 1. Gain Access to computer system and private networks 2. Physical access, searching and surveillance of private rooms. 3. Searching vehicles and other physical containers.[/QUOTE]So basically what we've done in the United States until the mass surveillance bullshit came about. I don't see the issue, this follows due process through the Swiss court system. I'm seriously drawing a blank as to why this is a bad thing, if the same proposal was done here it would [U]absolutely[/U] comply with the 4th Amendment.
[QUOTE=Aztec;51104267]Snowden's leaks actually fundamentally changed the culture of how US citizens thought about the NSA. In fact I think before the leaks most regular citizens didn't even know what the NSA was.[/QUOTE]And how did that affect peoples' day to day lives? It didn't. NSA is still full force and doing what they were doing before. Only difference is that now more people know about its existence. That's all.
[QUOTE=Aztec;51104267]Snowden's leaks actually fundamentally changed the culture of how US citizens thought about the NSA. In fact I think before the leaks most regular citizens didn't even know what the NSA was.[/QUOTE] I don't think it really changed anything at all. Nobody cared. We all knew about the patriot act for a long time
[QUOTE=proboardslol;51104468]I don't think it really changed anything at all. Nobody cared. We all knew about the patriot act for a long time[/QUOTE] Tons of people cared. I am actually pretty boggled that people forget this easily. Sure there is nothing an ordinary citizen can do, but tons of people cared for sure. Enough people cared about encryption after the leaks that the US govt shortened the legal length a public key could be. [editline]25th September 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=rndgenerator;51104459]And how did that affect peoples' day to day lives? It didn't. NSA is still full force and doing what they were doing before. Only difference is that now more people know about its existence. That's all.[/QUOTE] There was definitely a culture shift in the US after the leaks and the conversation about mass surveillance became every an every day thing. People care. Just because you can't do anything about something doesn't mean you don't care.
[QUOTE=Talishmar;51104153]There would be no problem with government surveillance if the government was to be reliable. Many governments are so unreliable and unrepresentative of the people that it's an absurd thought, but perhaps the Swiss aren't in such a poor situation.[/QUOTE] I think the Swiss have an interesting system of government. It's informed direct democracy, which is possibly less untrustworthy than the 'representative' democracies of the US and UK, but probably not applicable in those countries
[QUOTE=proboardslol;51104468]I don't think it really changed anything at all. Nobody cared. We all knew about the patriot act for a long time[/QUOTE] I think outside of movies that had an unmarked spy van gag nobody really knew. Even then they probably thought it was the FBI. I'd say most people just thought it was a "Well the government isn't spying on ME!" situation. No, the government is spying on anyone, and it is legally allowed to spy on everyone. And anything that's not legal, its unlikely to find out about. That's when people care. Even if no laws have been changed, now that this information is out people can act differently.
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