• Libya: Helicopters used in Nato attacks
    23 replies, posted
It seems the helicopters talked about in the past week or two have actually gone into action over Libya. The article only briefly mentions non UK helicopters but the French ones are also in use it seems. [quote] [h2]Libya: UK Apache helicopters used in Nato attacks[/h2] [B]British Apache attack helicopters have been used over Libya for the first time, Nato has confirmed.[/B] They attacked and destroyed two military installations, a radar site and an armed checkpoint near Brega, the Captain of HMS Ocean told the BBC. French Gazelle helicopters also took part in simultaneous attacks on different targets in Libya for the first time. On Wednesday, Nato extended its mission in Libya by 90 days. The BBC's defence correspondent Jonathan Beale said: "The Captain of the HMS Ocean reported that those targets had been successfully destroyed and both Apaches returned to their base on HMS Ocean." "This successful engagement demonstrates the unique capabilities brought to bear by attack helicopters," said Lt Gen Charles Bouchard, Commander of Operation Unified Protector. "We will continue to use these assets whenever and wherever needed, using the same precision as we do in all of our missions." [B]Missile risk[/B] The decision to send four British Apache helicopters to Libya was made by Prime Minister David Cameron on 27 May. Their deployment via HMS Ocean means there should be less chance of civilian casualties in operations that previously relied on the use of Tornado and Typhoon aircraft. But the Apaches operate at lower altitudes and could be targeted by Libyan forces loyal to Col Gaddafi, which still have access to thousands of surface-to-air missiles. Nato intervened in Libya after the UN passed a resolution for the protection of civilians, amid a two-month revolt inspired by other uprisings in the Arab world. It has intensified raids in recent weeks with attacks on command-and-control structures in the capital Tripoli. The intervention was initially led by France, Britain and the US until 31 March - when Nato took over. It was given an initial 90 days, which would have run out on 27 June. On Wednesday, UN investigators accused government forces in Libya of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Rights experts said they had found evidence of crimes including murder and torture, in a pattern suggesting Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi was behind them. The UN mission also said opposition forces were guilty of abuses that would constitute war crimes, although they were not so numerous. [/quote] I wonder how this will effect the overall attempt at a revolution.
Can we send the other toys in as well? [img]http://www.darkgovernment.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/A-10-Warthog.jpg[/img]
Well, NATO will have nothing to blame for except themselves if those Apaches run into an air defense ambush. Let's hope British Apache pilots don't have the same "They'd never do that to us" attitude as the Americans. Looking at the dumbs, I retract my doubts that British aviators would be better than Americans at learning after losing. Anyone want to prove otherwise?
[QUOTE=Tac Error;30233274]Well, NATO will have nothing to blame for themselves if those Apaches run into an air defense ambush. Let's hope British Apache [b]pilots[/b] don't have the same "They'd never do that to us" attitude as the Americans.[/QUOTE] Pilots alone are barely responsible for their flight missions and routes.
[QUOTE=STeel;30233808]Pilots alone are barely responsible for their flight missions and routes.[/QUOTE] You missed my point. Hell, 14 people have completely missed my point. I'll let this quote speak for itself if you're willing to read. [quote]For years--many years now--the OPFOR at the NTC has been killing Apaches at a rate that would have completely exhausted the fleet by now. During rotations in which the BLUFOR combat brigade was supported by attack helicopters, as OPFOR reconnaissance passed forward through the zone, they would drop of MANPADS (MILES Stingers, portraying SA-14s) teams at points templated by the OPFOR chief of reconnaissance as likely attack helipter aerial battle positions. Given the terrain, these were often on high ground which was rocky and difficult for the Blue ground force to clear--so the Blue force never bothered. Once the attack helicopter companies came up to occupy their BPs and engage the mechanized OPFOR at long range, the killing began. Colonel Pat Lamar, when he commanded the OPFOR, used to measure the day's success in ten million dollar increments, as that's what a basic Apache went for back then (they increased almost another 50% before production stopped). And it ewasn;t just the dismount teams. [b]Apaches were often lazy and lost situational awareness, and would get within range of a T-72 main gun.[/b] The OPFOR started having even better multi-million dollar days once the vastly more expensive Longbow started showing up. Even when the leadership started changing the rules to "prove" the effectiveness of the newer systems, it didn't matter. In the first Division Advanced Warfighting Experiment at the NTC, the Blue Force was allowed for the first time to locate and attack the OPFOR in their laager sites in the middle of the night before an attack. So the OPFOR-uncooperative. asymmetric *bleeps* (with a little coaching from a certain old civilian about how the Soviets said they planned to defeat advanced acquisition and targeting systems in their own literature)--moved their laager sites from the usual locations. They parked the tracks up wadis, with engines shut down and no heat signatures--and delayed their SP. (Cheatin' motorscooters! Just like a real enemy…) And they set up dummy laager positions with burn barrels to provide nice clear heat signatures for the Apaches to engage. We had pulled up in our HMMVW in a location just under and behind what the OPFOR had templated for the Apache aerial BPs that night. We were listening to the AHC's controllers' frequency as well as the OPFOR's (who had broken radio silence with a series of phony transmissions sounding like they were moving out. We heard the Apaches transit in and occupy the BP. We heard their complaints over the radio that they were engaging, but not killing anything. And then the OPFOR SAM teams opened up. A constellation of Apache CVKIs (blinking yellow lights showing they'd been killed) formed in the dark sky overhead. Lesson learned? No. Much the same thing happened in every subsequent Apache rotation, and especially in the AWEs, when the rules were changed to give the Blue force an advantage, and the OPFOR was left to their own devices. (OK, so they got a little more advice from the old bearded civilian NTC G-2…) [b]And the aviators never learned, and were never forced to learn. The excuse was always, "Well, the Soviets would never do that,"--even a decade after the Soviet Union had ceased to be--or, "No enemy would ever do that."[/b] So the lesson passed them by, year after year, until the Iraqis had their own chance for a multi-million dollar day. Because after all, "A real enemy would never do that…" When you prove to the leaders that a few HMMWV's dragging concertina wire can create the MTI signature of a large armored force, and get a maneuver brigade's focus locked onto that faulty intel long anough for the real OPFOR to move up and rip the brigade apart, you *can* get their attention. And that's what happened in the drive to Baghdad. When an MI weenie with her hair on fire came racing into the CP with reports of MTIs suggesting that a Republican Guard brigade was maneuvering to meet the US force, it was fortunate that there were three senior US officers in the room who had been senior trainers at the NTC when we pulled the concertina stunt during an AWE. They stayed calm and demanded confirmation. Of course there wasn't any to be had, because the MTIs were false hits.[/quote] I don't know how UK Apache pilots train, but if they have the same attitudes that US AH-64 aviators had when the National Training Center still provided a peer conventional foe to train against, then they're going to have a world of hurt if the Gaddafi loyalists decide to take active measures in countering Apaches.
[QUOTE=STeel;30233808]Pilots alone are barely responsible for their flight missions and routes.[/QUOTE] Yes, by that logic being given the order to massacre innocents must be okay, too, because it was just an order and they weren't responsible for pulling the trigger... My stance on this conflict is already known, though. We have bigger fish to fry (or piss on).
[QUOTE=Jenkem;30234166]Yes, by that logic being given the order to massacre innocents must be okay, too, because it was just an order and they weren't responsible for pulling the trigger... My stance on this conflict is already known, though. We have bigger fish to fry (or piss on).[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiments[/url] Lets not convict the commanding officer that was responsible for torturing prisoners at Abu-Ghraib, for allowing his soldiers and giving his orders to whatever the fuck they want with him. Lets just convict the grunts that were under his command. Soldiers have been rigorously trained to follow the order of their commanding officer. This can be seen through out every military force throughout history. Soldiers follow their commander's orders and execute them with little to no question. They may complain about what they have done, but they had to do what their job entailed them to do, follow the orders. If soldiers did not follow orders regardless of how disgusting it may be, then they are not true soldiers. [editline]3rd June 2011[/editline] God, you're a pariah in so many sections here. [editline]3rd June 2011[/editline] A lot of people do not understand the vast amount of discretion a military officer has over the men he was given to command.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;30234166]Yes, by that logic being given the order to massacre innocents must be okay, too, because it was just an order and they weren't responsible for pulling the trigger... My stance on this conflict is already known, though. We have bigger fish to fry (or piss on).[/QUOTE] I missed his point but you're missing mine too. I said that pilots have barely any say in what they're going to do, and yes that does include pulling the trigger off on innocents if that's what was specified for them. However there's one thing denying a command to kill people, which is 'bad' by the army's orders, and then there's flying off your course for no reason apparent to your superiors, and if you just randomly disband from your team and plan, you become way more vulnerable. All in all, I wasn't advocating whatsoever killing innocent people, or killing at all for that matter.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;30232816]Can we send the other toys in as well? [img]http://www.darkgovernment.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/A-10-Warthog.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] I do believe that the A10 has already been used over Libya. No videos or photos of one in action, but I did remember reading an article saying they were in use and showing a few photos of them at the airbase in Italy all of the US involvement is based from.
Who ya gonna call? Tank busters!
And we're still doing nothing :smith:
The swedish handled this extraordinarily clever :v: "We will take part in the Libya operation, some Jas Gripens are on the way, but they will only attack air targets." Too bad the british air force destroyed the whole Libyan air arsenal shortly before. Now Sweden is technically taking part in the operation by flying around the country in their jets with little worries. Edit: Checking from wikipedia an approximate of 3 Libyan airplanes have been sighted after the british attack, including a cropduster used for bombing :v:
[QUOTE=Falchion;30238131]The swedish handled this extraordinarily clever :v: "We will take part in the Libya operation, some Jas Gripens are on the way, but they will only attack air targets." Too bad the british air force destroyed the whole Libyan air arsenal shortly before. Now Sweden is technically taking part in the operation by flying around the country in their jets with little worries. Edit: Checking from wikipedia an approximate of 3 Libyan airplanes have been sighted after the british attack, including a cropduster used for bombing :v:[/QUOTE] From what I have read and heard the Swedish planes are doing a lot of recon while the more active participants bomb the crap out of things.
I don't feel like making a new thread for this [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13655288[/url] William Hague is visting Benghazi for talks with the NTC. He says they're the "legitimate representative of the Libyan people", dunno if that means the UK is going to recognise them
[QUOTE=smurfy;30239494]I don't feel like making a new thread for this [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13655288[/url] William Hague is visting Benghazi for talks with the NTC. He says they're the "legitimate representative of the Libyan people", dunno if that means the UK is going to recognise them[/QUOTE] I think the fact that we have condemned Gadhafi, shot at him, actually injured him and put smart bombs within 50 feet of where we thought he was is all together enough to say that we recognise them and they're claim to power.
[QUOTE=smurfy;30239494]I don't feel like making a new thread for this [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13655288[/url] William Hague is visting Benghazi for talks with the NTC. He says they're the "legitimate representative of the Libyan people", dunno if that means the UK is going to recognise them[/QUOTE] I [I]think[/I] the EU (as a whole) would need to recognize them before the UK can. At least this is the excuse that a few other EU countries gave.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;30234232][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiments[/url] Lets not convict the commanding officer that was responsible for torturing prisoners at Abu-Ghraib, for allowing his soldiers and giving his orders to whatever the fuck they want with him. Lets just convict the grunts that were under his command. Soldiers have been rigorously trained to follow the order of their commanding officer. This can be seen through out every military force throughout history. Soldiers follow their commander's orders and execute them with little to no question. They may complain about what they have done, but they had to do what their job entailed them to do, follow the orders. If soldiers did not follow orders regardless of how disgusting it may be, then they are not true soldiers. [editline]3rd June 2011[/editline] God, you're a pariah in so many sections here. [editline]3rd June 2011[/editline] A lot of people do not understand the vast amount of discretion a military officer has over the men he was given to command.[/QUOTE] You should punish whoever was knowingly involved, officer or not. Just because your commanding officer is telling you to do something, you should [I]not[/I] throw right and wrong to the wind. If it's a legitimate tactical order, you have no reason to not follow it, but if it's wrong (i.e. murder; shooting unarmed soldiers, killing innocents, what have you) you shouldn't. An "illegal" order is not protected under the law here for a reason, and you will not escape punishment because this or that person told you to do something that you knew was wrong. It doesn't matter what "discretion" he has; in the end, you still have your own free will and have to intentionally commit the act; nobody ever made anybody massacre anyone without their submission. And...this is way off of what that other guy apparently meant to say.
It works like this: "Oh you don't want to shoot that civilian and disagree with direct orders. It's your choice, good that you have moral integrity, we will either demote you or replace you entirely with someone else that will do anything.
This is still going on? I havent heard about it for weeks and I assumed it was over.
[QUOTE=Spearman;30240106]This is still going on? I havent heard about it for weeks and I assumed it was over.[/QUOTE] And this is the problem with things like this, once the media stops talking about it everyone assumes its disappeared.
[QUOTE=Jsm;30236715]I do believe that the A10 has already been used over Libya. No videos or photos of one in action, but I did remember reading an article saying they were in use and showing a few photos of them at the airbase in Italy all of the US involvement is based from.[/QUOTE] It has been used. Some of the guys on the military base I am on have gone down to a USAF base in Italy to prep the A-10s and send them off to Lybia.
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13652388[/url] A BBC team was allowed on board HMS Ocean and filmed the mission briefing, the helicopters taking off and the strike itself (in the distance) and interviewed the air crew afterwards.
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