• Do Dogs Think?
    63 replies, posted
[QUOTE][url]http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2013/07/10/istock-3422492-dog-beach-australia_custom-ed405585b3a1e4f214b27f55bf6e964d601b79f9-s40.jpg[/url][/QUOTE] [QUOTE]I post regularly here at 13.7 about animal cognition, crediting a variety of animals — including some of our daily companions — with the ability to think. So I'd forgive anyone for wondering if my headline today is of the straw-man (or straw-dog) category. Do dogs think? Of course they do! Doing a radio interview recently, though, I was reminded that some dog owners are still convinced that dogs don't think, but instead act on instinct and live tethered to the present, in a moment-to-moment way. That's what my debate partner, Globe and Mail columnist Sarah Hampson, declared when we participated in an episode of the CBC radio program Tooth and Claw. Our primary task was to engage with one question: Do we love some animals too much? Hampson took the "yes" side and I the "no" position. Along the way, as we delved into animal thinking and emotion, Hampson said this (though it was cut from the segment that aired): [I]I would take issue with Barbara's point that [dogs] are thinking animals. This is where I sort of agree with Cesar Millan [the Dog Whisperer]. He actually talks about how they are an instinctual animal and what we love about them is their instinctual way of being. In other words they react to things that are right in front of them. And I think we all love that about animals. But I find it worrisome when we start saying that they are "thinking." I just think that they are "being" and that is partly what we love about them. That they don't think as much as we do.[/I] [B]...[/B][/QUOTE] [url]http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2013/07/10/200391713/do-dogs-think?utm_source=NPR&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130710[/url]
I'd say, if dogs can remember then of course they can think.
You can train dogs, that's evidence enough.
[QUOTE=Take_Opal;41404959]I'd say, if dogs can remember then of course they can think.[/QUOTE] How do you define being able to remember. I don't think dogs can actively call memories.
There is some sort of personal definition of "thinking" that this guy has and that the article doesn't convey. No one can possibly think that dogs literally do not think.
What if you stick a bunch of different treats in front of them? My dog sits there for a few seconds before picking which one he actually wants, even when one is closer to his face than the other. They may also have to think to determine what is a threat and what is not a threat.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;41405040]You can train dogs, that's evidence enough.[/QUOTE] Training through repetition does not require thinking.
Yup im sure my dogs thinks its pretty funny to shit on my floor instead of waking me up.
My bulldog plans out how to get pat certain things, I imagine that is thinking.
[QUOTE=The-Spy;41405062]What if you stick a bunch of different treats in front of them? My dog sits there for a few seconds before picking which one he actually wants, even when one is closer to his face than the other. They may also have to think to determine what is a threat and what is not a threat.[/QUOTE] Computers also take time to compute correct answers based on a predefined goal. Taking time to make a decision is not the same as thinking. Ask yourself: "Is this something a computer can do?" If the answer is 'yes' then it isn't a good example of thinking.
I'm pretty sure they can think. My dog, who died a few weeks ago due to a brain tumor, had learned himself how to open up the back door in an easier way. He discovered that by biting a piece of duct tape that we had used the previous winter to weatherproof the door, and pulled it open that way, instead of waiting for us to open it for him. This door wasn't functioning properly at the time, and wouldn't lock it's self when closed sometimes, so he could pull the door open at any time. The duct tape eventually tore though, and i never got around to putting another piece on though. I had literally zero input towards this behavior though, i just saw him do it one day. He was also the only dog in the house that did that.
Betteridge's law of headlines invalidates the answer.
[QUOTE=zombini;41405151]I'm pretty sure they can think. My dog, who died a few weeks ago due to a brain tumor, had learned himself how to open up the back door in an easier way. He discovered that by biting a piece of duct tape that we had used the previous winter to weatherproof the door, and pulled it open that way, instead of waiting for us to open it for him. This door wasn't functioning properly at the time, and wouldn't lock it's self when closed sometimes, so he could pull the door open at any time. The duct tape eventually tore though, and i never got around to putting another piece on though. I had literally zero input towards this behavior though, i just saw him do it one day. He was also the only dog in the house that did that.[/QUOTE] Isn't it just as likely that he did it by accident once and then continued to do it? The fact that no other dogs did it, even though they saw the one dog, seems like stronger evidence that they don't think. I would say that dogs are imprinted as opposed to taught. You can't teach a dog how to think as you can teach a person how to think. Really though, we need a hard definition of thinking for this discussion to go anywhere.
[QUOTE=sgman91;41405174]Isn't it just as likely that he did it by accident once and then continued to do it? The fact that no other dogs did it, even though they saw the one dog, seems like stronger evidence that they don't think. I would say that dogs are imprinted as opposed to taught. You can't teach a dog how to think as you can teach a person how to think. Really though, we need a hard definition of thinking for this discussion to go anywhere.[/QUOTE] How could he have done it accidentally though? The piece of tape wasn't right where he'd normally bite, it was up above his head, he had to reach up to bite it. I highly doubt it was an accident. Also to note, i miss him more than anything in the world right now.
[QUOTE=sgman91;41405058]How do you define being able to remember. I don't think dogs can actively call memories.[/QUOTE] You're right, but sights, sounds, and smells can *trigger* memories in dogs, just like humans. Otherwise dogs they wouldn't remember their owners after long periods apart. I think that dogs contemplate their lives and their surroundings to a simple extent. I mean, *something* has to be going through their heads when they're laying there resting, staring at a wall - it's probably something more like emotion than thought.
[QUOTE=zombini;41405286]How could he have done it accidentally though? The piece of tape wasn't right where he'd normally bite, it was up above his head, he had to reach up to bite it. I highly doubt it was an accident. Also to note, i miss him more than anything in the world right now.[/QUOTE] I have no idea if it was accidental or not. My main point is that we simply don't know and therefore can't make any conclusions based on it. I've seen crazier accidents. [QUOTE]You're right, but sights, sounds, and smells can *trigger* memories in dogs, just like humans. Otherwise dogs they wouldn't remember their owners after long periods apart. I think that dogs contemplate their lives and their surroundings to a simple extent. I mean, *something* has to be going through their heads when they're laying there resting, staring at a wall - it's probably something more like emotion than thought.[/QUOTE] Isn't one of the key components of memory being able to recognize it as memory?
My dog thinks that walls are bad to walk into and that green leafy stuff tastes like shit. Yeah, they can think.
They have to figure out how to lick their butt somehow.
Dogs seem to be able to think/act much like wolves do and wolves are rather smart animals that have shown to display acts of intelligence and/or emotion that would require thought to accomplish. So yes, I'd say dogs can think too. Something like insects or small fish are more instinctual animals, they literally just respond to direct stimuli to do what they do.
[QUOTE=pentium;41405730]They have to figure out how to lick their butt somehow.[/QUOTE] Well, we're thinking. Why don't we lick our butts?
My old dog used to know when someone was depressed, and he'd put his head under your arm, or on your lap, to comfort you. He also knew how to open a door by placing a paw on the handle, opening it, and pulling it back/pushing it forward. I think dogs know a lot, and have to think on a daily basis. They're not that dumb.
accurate view into the mind of a dog: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CErapf79rqM[/media]
[QUOTE=KorJax;41405777]Dogs seem to be able to think/act much like wolves do and wolves are rather smart animals that have shown to display acts of intelligence and/or emotion that would require thought to accomplish. So yes, I'd say dogs can think too. Something like insects or small fish are more instinctual animals, they literally just respond to direct stimuli to do what they do.[/QUOTE] you can train goldfish which means they have memories, doesnt it
Smart dogs can think pretty well sometimes and are probably smarter than some people give them credit for. However, most dogs are pretty retarded. They think, but not on the same terms as what humans invision thinking is. They aren't conceptual at all and very introverted, much like a 3 year old would be. We just like them because they are few of the many animals we were able to tame without them eating us alive out of nowhere, also cause they are entertaining and usefull companions.
[QUOTE=sgman91;41405058]How do you define being able to remember. I don't think dogs can actively call memories.[/QUOTE] The fact that people can go away for years and return to a dog and the dog will react to that person. My dog couldn't know who I was if I walked out of the room for a couple of hours if they couldn't remember.
Your guide to the inside of a dog's thoughts and mind: "BALL BALL BALL BALL. Oh look at the good human. I must sniff that dog's ass. HOLY FUCK A TREAT. I need to take a shit. I need to go for a walk at 2 AM so I can sniff that tree. My balls need licking. I could be inside licking my balls right now. Dammit I wish I had balls. BALL! BALL BALL BALL BALL."
[QUOTE=sgman91;41405133]Computers also take time to compute correct answers based on a predefined goal. Taking time to make a decision is not the same as thinking. Ask yourself: "Is this something a computer can do?" If the answer is 'yes' then it isn't a good example of thinking.[/QUOTE] brains are literally computers and you're already seeing primitive computers that attempt to emulate animal brains. if you're breaking it down to computing something over time then we're no different, just vastly more complex
My dog remembered the fear of a family friend throwing him into the pool 8 years ago. It was the first time he saw him since then too. Dogs not only think, they can remember.
i'm certain my dog doesn't think because when we play fetch with him inside the house, if the sock we throw lands on a couch he sits on the ground next to the couch and barks at it even though he jumps up on the couch [B]all the time[/B] if someone is sitting on it
Sometimes I wonder if humans can think too.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.