• Pentagon admits airstrike in Mosul may have killed 100+ civilians this past March
    56 replies, posted
[quote]The Pentagon has admitted that airstrikes it carried out on a house in western Mosul killed at least 105 civilians in one of the deadliest attacks anywhere in Iraq since the 2003 invasion to oust Saddam Hussein. The final toll could be [B]as high as 141,[/B] an investigation into the 17 March attack has found, with [B]36 people still unaccounted for. Nearly all those killed had taken shelter in a house[/B] as a battle raged between Islamic State (Isis) forces who were in the area and Iraqi military special force units. Searing images of bodies being dug from the pancaked ruins of the house were broadcast around the world amid allegations that the fight for Mosul’s densely packed neighborhoods was too often being ceded to high-flying jets to avoid ground clashes with Isis. A Pentagon investigation released on Thursday[B] found that Isis fighters had planted explosives in the house, causing secondary explosions that caused the house to collapse.[/B] The report said thata [B]US jet dropped a 500lb bomb shortly after 8am, targeting two Isis fighters who had taken up positions on the roof of the the house[/B] in the Jadidah neighborhood.[/quote] [url]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/25/us-mosul-airstrikes-deadliest-attack-iraq-2003[/url]
Really makes you think who are the biggest terrorists here.
goodness that's a lot of people man
Why are we still there aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh
[QUOTE=MatheusMCardoso;52280766]Really makes you think who are the biggest terrorists here.[/QUOTE] Normally I would say that civilian casualties are inevitable in any war, but the sheer number of people in one building seems like something that could have been looked into prior to dropping a bomb on it for just two militants. [editline]27th May 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Warriorx4;52280774]Why are we still there aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh[/QUOTE] Technically we aren't, we're just providing air cover and advisers.
Alrighty! From the enemies standpoint they'll simply start using hostages for protection against airstrikes and armed assaults. Although i'm actually curious if that was the case?
[quote]amid allegations that the fight for Mosul’s densely packed neighborhoods was too often being ceded to high-flying jets to avoid ground clashes with Isis.[/quote] Given the house being wired with explosives, it seems like in this particular case those people would have been killed either way; the only difference is none of the soldiers on the ground were killed as well. [QUOTE=Warriorx4;52280774]Why are we still there aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh[/QUOTE] What is the alternative? Run off again and let this, or another, extremist group take over large swaths of land and get rich selling oil to fund more attacks, while continuing to terrorise the local population as well. Regardless of if we should have ever gotten involved in the first place, parts of the middle east is now fucked and sitting around hoping the problem is going to sort itself out isn't a solution. ISIS needs to be destroyed, and then an actual effort needs to take place to rebuild the region instead of fucking off again and letting the vultures swoop in.
[QUOTE=Sims_doc;52280801]Alrighty! From the enemies standpoint they'll simply start using hostages for protection against airstrikes and armed assaults. Although i'm actually curious if that was the case?[/QUOTE] They've always been using civilians as a deterrent against being bombed Also it's worth it to note that aircraft usually rely on ground observers to give them targets, and whilst they can see very well with their cameras they can't see inside buildings, so they have to rely on ground observers for that - it's likely that any FAC on the ground said that the building was clear of civilians, and the fighters on the roof were an imminent threat to friendly forces on the ground, so the bomb was dropped There's definitely going to be an investigation over this though, nobody wants to drop bombs on civilians, even unintentionally
[QUOTE=DaMastez;52280806] What is the alternative? Run off again and let this, or another, extremist group take over large swaths of land and get rich selling oil to fund more attacks, while continuing to terrorise the local population as well. Regardless of if we should have ever gotten involved in the first place, parts of the middle east is now fucked and sitting around hoping the problem is going to sort itself out isn't a solution. ISIS needs to be destroyed, and then an actual effort needs to take place to rebuild the region instead of fucking off again and letting the vultures swoop in.[/QUOTE] The difference if we would leave now versus when ISIS first invaded Iraq is that the Iraqi national forces were weak, under trained, and severely demoralized. Now, Iraq's Army is trained, winning, and armed well. If we left, Iraq would be completely fine.
[quote]US jet dropped a 500lb bomb shortly after 8am, targeting two Isis fighters who had taken up positions on the roof of the the house[/quote] Am I the only one who thinks that a 500lb bomb is a bit excessive for just 2 fighters?
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;52280865]Am I the only one who thinks that a 500lb bomb is a bit excessive for just 2 fighters?[/QUOTE] That's actually not very large at all [t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/US_Navy_030529-N-0295M-007_Aviation_Ordnanceman_3rd_Class_Aaron_Harris_checks_a_MK-82_500lb._General_purpose_bomb.jpg[/t]
[QUOTE=MatheusMCardoso;52280766]Really makes you think who are the biggest terrorists here.[/QUOTE] Well ISIS obviously. One fuck up doesn't change that lol
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;52280897]Well ISIS obviously. One fuck up doesn't change that lol[/QUOTE] It's been more than "one" fuck up tbh. Drone strikes, while useful, seem to lead to a lot of collateral damage. "Precise" munitions might not blow the entire neighbourhood up, but they sure as shit will blow up more than you really needed to destroy. Either we're accidentally killing a load of innocent bystanders, or we're destroying their livelihoods. And events like this feed into the ISIS propaganda machine damn near perfectly. "The western dogs just killed 100 of our brothers and sisters in their COWARDLY attack. These weak degenerates won't even show their faces to fight us instead raining death from the safety of a drone!" (though to be honest damn near anything we do feeds into the propaganda, it's how they roll). It's certainly not a good way to inspire trust between us and the civilians of the ME that just want to not be killed by either side. A drone strike just to kill 2 guys seems incredibly wasteful, these things aren't exactly the cheapest even if the bomb wasn't "huge".
[QUOTE=hexpunK;52280929]It's been more than "one" fuck up tbh. Drone strikes, while useful, seem to lead to a lot of collateral damage. "Precise" munitions might not blow the entire neighbourhood up, but they sure as shit will blow up more than you really needed to destroy. Either we're accidentally killing a load of innocent bystanders, or we're destroying their livelihoods. And events like this feed into the ISIS propaganda machine damn near perfectly. "The western dogs just killed 100 of our brothers and sisters in their COWARDLY attack. These weak degenerates won't even show their faces to fight us instead raining death from the safety of a drone!" (though to be honest damn near anything we do feeds into the propaganda, it's how they roll). It's certainly not a good way to inspire trust between us and the civilians of the ME that just want to not be killed by either side. A drone strike just to kill 2 guys seems incredibly wasteful, these things aren't exactly the cheapest even if the bomb wasn't "huge".[/QUOTE] Well unfortunately military intelligence isn't omniscient. That's part of war sadly. The alternatives are a.) hand it all over to the Iraqi military, who'll cock up just as much if not more or b.) hand the middle east over to ISIS who'll commit systematic genocide against multiples groups. Yeah I think it's better to stick with the current plan. And no they don't feed into ISIS propaganda, the Iraqi people hate ISIS, they're almost always happy to be liberated if you actually look at the reactions from those who've been liberated. ISIS have killed far more civilians than the US has and the Iraqi people know it, they aren't thick like middle class westerners seem to think they are. The strikes aren't just done willy nilly, if they did a strike it was likely because the ISIS fighters had a strategic position that was preventing infantry advances, it was just unfortunate that ISIS happened to fill it all full of explosives.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;52280938]And no they don't feed into ISIS propaganda, the Iraqi people hate ISIS, they're almost always happy to be liberated if you actually look at the reactions from those who've been liberated.[/QUOTE] The population don't have to like ISIS for ISIS to try and use this as propaganda. I'm not sure why you homed in on that as a response tbh. Propaganda is propaganda, the idea is to turn people, not reassure people who already like you. And yes, military intel isn't perfect, it never will be. But at the same time, raining hell on places likely to have a number of civilians around isn't a good strategy, especially for two fucking dudes. It's a shame the Iraqi military are still pretty incompetent, because having them doing even a minutely good job would probably result in less fuck ups like this. I'm expecting this to result in quite a large investigation, but whether or not we'll learn something from it and adjust how we go about drone strikes is another question.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;52280946]The population don't have to like ISIS for ISIS to try and use this as propaganda. I'm not sure why you homed in on that as a response tbh. Propaganda is propaganda, the idea is to turn people, not reassure people who already like you. And yes, military intel isn't perfect, it never will be. But at the same time, raining hell on places likely to have a number of civilians around isn't a good strategy, especially for two fucking dudes. It's a shame the Iraqi military are still pretty incompetent, because having them doing even a minutely good job would probably result in less fuck ups like this. I'm expecting this to result in quite a large investigation, but whether or not we'll learn something from it and adjust how we go about drone strikes is another question.[/QUOTE] ISIS can use it as propaganda, doesn't mean it'll work. They're losing territory fast. Let them use the propaganda, it isn't going to save them. Nobody who's witnessed the crap ISIS has done is going to be swayed. And two dudes can easily pin down troops if they get into a good position, it only takes one entrenched sniper to do that. It's not uncommon to use bombings to deal with that.
I can't believe people are actually trying to defend our military over this shit.
[QUOTE=nulls;52280950]I can't believe people are actually trying to defend our military over this shit.[/QUOTE] Yeah you're right fuck it, its like they're not Muslim they're justified.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;52280865]Am I the only one who thinks that a 500lb bomb is a bit excessive for just 2 fighters?[/QUOTE] It is the smallest size of dumb bomb that the JDAM package can be put on
[QUOTE=Raidyr;52281014]It is the smallest size of dumb bomb that the JDAM package can be put on[/QUOTE] Still seems a [I]little[/I] over the top, though. That and aren't JDAMs less accurate than laser-guided munitions, relying on GPS and all that?
[QUOTE=MatheusMCardoso;52280766]Really makes you think who are the biggest terrorists here.[/QUOTE] Thats really deep, man. [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52280775]Normally I would say that civilian casualties are inevitable in any war, but the sheer number of people in one building seems like something that could have been looked into prior to dropping a bomb on it for just two militants. [/QUOTE] You're probably not wrong, but from reading the article it sounds like Iraqi forces were pinned down by the pair of fighters in the home, so they didn't bother to make sure no civilians were in the area before calling an airstrike in. [quote] Iraqi ground forces called in the airstrikes.[/quote] So thats what probably happened; Iraqi forces got lazy or scared and called in the airstrike before making sure there were no civilians in the area. A group of people in the adjacent building were even killed. From what the article says, its also possible that ISIS was using the building for bomb making or was just storing explosives there, but even if that weren't the case you still would have gotten some civilian casualties if 150 people were taking refuge in the building. [editline]27th May 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=nulls;52280950]I can't believe people are actually trying to defend our military over this shit.[/QUOTE] If you want to be mad over this, be mad at the guys who actually requested the airstrike despite knowing civilians were in the building, or not knowing for sure (hint: Its the Iraqi military)
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52281087]Still seems a [I]little[/I] over the top, though. That and aren't JDAMs less accurate than laser-guided munitions, relying on GPS and all that?[/QUOTE] I believe so. The bomb could have been laser guided. I was just taking a stab in the dark. 500lb really is on the lower side of bomb size either way.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;52280949]ISIS can use it as propaganda, doesn't mean it'll work. They're losing territory fast. Let them use the propaganda, it isn't going to save them. Nobody who's witnessed the crap ISIS has done is going to be swayed. And two dudes can easily pin down troops if they get into a good position, it only takes one entrenched sniper to do that. It's not uncommon to use bombings to deal with that.[/QUOTE] You realize that ISIS propaganda of them executing dozens of Iraqi forces is what caused the Iraqi army to flee when ISIS first marched on Mosul, right? They have a very effective propaganda machine. That's why we keep having home-grown terrorists, from Orlando to Manchester.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52281099]You realize that ISIS propaganda of them executing dozens of Iraqi forces is what caused the Iraqi army to flee when ISIS first marched on Mosul, right? They have a very effective propaganda machine. That's why we keep having home-grown terrorists, from Orlando to Manchester.[/QUOTE] Yeah but it's not this stuff that they recruit people with. I mean it's kind of hard for ISIS to take the moral high ground when they're driving bomb trucks into the middle of market places. [URL="http://www.tolonews.com/afghanistan/nangarhar-residents-turn-daesh-kill-15"]People in these countries hate ISIS[/URL]
[QUOTE=Raidyr;52281093]I believe so. The bomb could have been laser guided. I was just taking a stab in the dark. 500lb really is on the lower side of bomb size either way.[/QUOTE] IIRC JDAMs are typically used to bomb a LOT of shit from one level-bomber without needing to worry about keeping a laser on target, you just fly over, drop them, and let the pre-programmed coordinates do the rest.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52281087]Still seems a [I]little[/I] over the top, though. That and aren't JDAMs less accurate than laser-guided munitions, relying on GPS and all that?[/QUOTE] In the mid 2000s, JDAMs were upgraded to included laser guidance capability, while still retaining the GPS guidance
[QUOTE=CunningHam;52281378]Failures like this only strengthen ISIS' cause They need a better balance of use of sledgehammers and scalpels.[/QUOTE] Honestly, I don't see too many doctors using sledgehammers to remove tumors.
[QUOTE=CunningHam;52281378]Failures like this only strengthen ISIS' cause They need a better balance of use of sledgehammers and scalpels.[/QUOTE] Well, as it stands right now we're letting the Iraqi's call in US airstrikes, while we have a few special forces teams on the ground doing the same. Theres a group of US artillery in Iraq last I checked as well. This is as close as we can get without putting our own infantry on the ground to handle things. The issue with this method is that the Iraqi military isn't the best trained group in the world, doesn't have the best moral, and wasn't very motivated until not too long ago. So we either stick with what we're doing, or put our own soldiers in there. Which that won't ever happen, even Trump isn't dumb enough to put boots on the ground there because thats the absolute last thing the American people want. Nobody wants a 6 month war only to get stuck there for 10 years rebuilding a country that doesn't want to be rebuilt.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52280885]That's actually not very large at all [t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/US_Navy_030529-N-0295M-007_Aviation_Ordnanceman_3rd_Class_Aaron_Harris_checks_a_MK-82_500lb._General_purpose_bomb.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] Yeah, that's like dropping a fucking Grizzly Bear on someone m8, [I]not large at all.[/I]
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;52280949]ISIS can use it as propaganda, doesn't mean it'll work. They're losing territory fast. Let them use the propaganda, it isn't going to save them. Nobody who's witnessed the crap ISIS has done is going to be swayed. And two dudes can easily pin down troops if they get into a good position, it only takes one entrenched sniper to do that. It's not uncommon to use bombings to deal with that.[/QUOTE] If no one is going to be swayed how the fuck does ISIS have members.
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