[quote]
The United States National Security Agency spied on French presidents Jacques Chirac, Nicolas Sarkozy and Francois Hollande, WikiLeaks said in a press statement published on Tuesday, citing top secret intelligence reports and technical documents.
WikiLeaks said the documents derived from directly targeted NSA surveillance of the communications of Hollande (2012–present), Sarkozy (2007–2012) and Chirac (1995–2007), as well as French cabinet ministers and the French ambassador to the U.S.
According to the documents, Sarkozy is said to have considered restarting Israeli-Palestinian peace talks without U.S. involvement and Hollande feared a Greek euro zone exit back in 2012.
The documents include summaries of conversations between French government officials on the global financial crisis, the future of the European Union, the relationship between Hollande's administration and Merkel's government, French efforts to determine the make-up of the executive staff of the United Nations, and a dispute between the French and U.S. governments over U.S. spying on France.
[/quote]
[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/23/us-france-wikileaks-idUSKBN0P32EM20150623[/url]
Americans spying on everyone?
Who would of guessed! v:v:v
Who aren't the American Gov't spying on?
[QUOTE=MIPS;48040050]Americans spying on everyone?
Who would of guessed! v:v:v[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=usaokay;48040071]p obv that other nations are spying on us too lol[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Meme It Up;48040073]Who aren't the American Gov't spying on?[/QUOTE]
I would say this in no way makes it less terrible.
I say terrible because NSA has been caught spying on Germany and France, close allies.
Also I dont think anyone has been caught bugging a USA president's phone.
This displays complete mistrust to allies.
I bet you 100% that most nations are spying on eachother, regardless of if it makes its way into the news or not.
[QUOTE=Map in a box;48040175]I bet you 100% that most nations are spying on eachother, regardless of if it makes its way into the news or not.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but some people use that to undermine the impact of NSA survivalence. Effectively first 3 posters said:"Its no big deal".
But it is a big deal because the scale at which NSA spies on everyone is not something to ignore. NSA made it in the news because they got completely off the leash and spied practically on everyone. I dont think that ever happened in history before so it's a big deal.
On topic Hollande wants to assemble a big meeting regarding the issue, lets see where this goes ([sp]nowhere[/sp])
[QUOTE=usaokay;48040084]They aren't spying on the penguins in Antarctica. Those fashionable little bastards are always up to something.[/QUOTE]
yeah
[IMG]http://icons.iconarchive.com/icons/majdi-khawaja/madagascar/256/Penguins-icon.png[/IMG]
yo legit fuck you guys
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48040150]Also I dont think anyone has been caught bugging a USA president's phone. [/QUOTE]
Yet the US embassy in Moscow took [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/15/world/the-bugged-embassy-case-what-went-wrong.html"]decades to build[/URL] because it was chock-full of Soviet bugs, so clearly ambassadors aren't off-limits. The fact that the American president hasn't been bugged reflects a lack of technical ability, not a lack of motivation or willpower.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48040150]This displays complete mistrust to allies. [/QUOTE]
This displays standard operating procedure for most countries. Unless you want to be blindsided by an ally undergoing revolution as in Iran in 1978, you have to know all the dirty little details your friends aren't telling you. That's why Karpichkov, a KGB officer, [url=http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/22/confessions-of-a-kgb-spy]spied on Latvia[/url], a former Soviet state and ostensible ally to Russia. That's part of why Jonathan Pollard, a US Navy intelligence analyst, [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Jonathan_Pollard#Espionage]was recruited by the Israelis[/url]. Politics is all lies and the only way to cut through the lies, to force the truth onto the table and prepare for whatever they're not telling you, is to get information that they don't want you to have. That's spying in a nutshell.
I see a lot of people say 'but spying on allies is wrong!' without any further explanation as to how world order could be better preserved with countries being deaf and blind to what their neighbors are doing, allowing states to keep their dirty secrets without worrying about foreign scrutiny. As Lord Palmerston, a 19th century British Prime Minister, put it, 'We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow'. Every world leader knows this, but sometimes they fake surprise and outrage for the sake of a gullible public.
So yeah, if someone gives a credible and coherent argument for how things ought to work then I'm all ears, but simplistic moralizing in the face of practical necessity is not an argument.
[QUOTE=catbarf;48040417]Yet the US embassy in Moscow took [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/15/world/the-bugged-embassy-case-what-went-wrong.html"]decades to build[/URL] because it was chock-full of Soviet bugs, so clearly ambassadors aren't off-limits. The fact that the American president hasn't been bugged reflects a lack of technical ability, not a lack of motivation or willpower.
This displays standard operating procedure for most countries. Unless you want to be blindsided by an ally undergoing revolution as in Iran in 1978, you have to know all the dirty little details your friends aren't telling you. That's why Karpichkov, a KGB officer, [url=http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/22/confessions-of-a-kgb-spy]spied on Latvia[/url], a former Soviet state and ostensible ally to Russia. That's part of why Jonathan Pollard, a US Navy intelligence analyst, [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Jonathan_Pollard#Espionage]was recruited by the Israelis[/url]. Politics is all lies and the only way to cut through the lies, to force the truth onto the table and prepare for whatever they're not telling you, is to get information that they don't want you to have. That's spying in a nutshell.
I see a lot of people say 'but spying on allies is wrong!' without any further explanation as to how world order could be better preserved with countries being deaf and blind to what their neighbors are doing, allowing states to keep their dirty secrets without worrying about foreign scrutiny. As Lord Palmerston, a 19th century British Prime Minister, put it, 'We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow'. Every world leader knows this, but sometimes they fake surprise and outrage for the sake of a gullible public.
So yeah, if someone gives a credible and coherent argument for how things ought to work then I'm all ears, but simplistic moralizing in the face of practical necessity is not an argument.[/QUOTE]
You are literally saying "but others are doing it too" as if it makes it more okay.
Lets just stop prohibiting spying then since everyone does it, right?
Yeah everyone spies on everyone, but that doesn't free USA from responsibility. You can say its responsibility for being caught, I have nothing to counter it. But its still responsibility and it's still disgusting.
The outrage is justified. Like if NSA spied on french ambassadors - it would be usual practice and I would not post an article about that. If NSA spied on french citizens I wouldnt either because we already know it.
But spying on presidents? I sincerely hope Hollande takes this very personally so at least some action against the massive spying is taken.
About your "politics is dirty so whats so special about it" stance. When you found out CIA was killing, torturing and imprisoning hundreds of people in black sites in Europe, without any legal entity involved, did you say:"Well every state does it, its just CIA got caught. What's the fuss about?" Because it's the same. We all know Russian intelligence tortures people and makes them suddenly disappear, we know that everyone does it because this is what intelligence agencies do all over the world, even though we pretend to not know about it. But does it make the information we found any less horrible?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48040666]You are literally saying "but others are doing it too" as if it makes it more okay.
Lets just stop prohibiting spying then since everyone does it, right?
Yeah everyone spies on everyone, but that doesn't free USA from responsibility. You can say its responsibility for being caught, I have nothing to counter it. But its still responsibility and it's still disgusting.
The outrage is justified. Like if NSA spied on french ambassadors - it would be usual practice and I would not post an article about that. If NSA spied on french citizens I wouldnt either because we already know it.
But spying on presidents? I sincerely hope Hollande takes this very personally so at least some action against the massive spying is taken.
About your "politics is dirty so whats so special about it" stance. When you found out CIA was killing, torturing and imprisoning hundreds of people in black sites in Europe, without any legal entity involved, did you say:"Well every state does it, its just CIA got caught. What's the fuss about?" Because it's the same. We all know Russian intelligence tortures people and makes them suddenly disappear, we know that everyone does it because this is what intelligence agencies do all over the world, even though we pretend to not know about it. But does it make the information we found any less horrible?[/QUOTE]
He's not saying it makes it okay, he's saying you're throwing stones in glass houses for acting like America is the only one doing it.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48040666]
Yeah everyone spies on everyone, but that doesn't free USA from responsibility. You can say its responsibility for being caught, I have nothing to counter it. But its still responsibility and it's still disgusting.
[/QUOTE]
Im honestly curious what this responsibility that you keep saying the USA has is. Is it to not spy on our allies? Is it to stop spying only to restart once the water's cooled down? Because honestly I cant get anything coherent from this other than you think the US should be punished in someway for being caught, which isn't going to happen
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48040666]You are literally saying "but others are doing it too" as if it makes it more okay.
Lets just stop prohibiting spying then since everyone does it, right?
Yeah everyone spies on everyone, but that doesn't free USA from responsibility. You can say its responsibility for being caught, I have nothing to counter it. But its still responsibility and it's still disgusting.
The outrage is justified. Like if NSA spied on french ambassadors - it would be usual practice and I would not post an article about that. If NSA spied on french citizens I wouldnt either because we already know it.
But spying on presidents? I sincerely hope Hollande takes this very personally so at least some action against the massive spying is taken.
About your "politics is dirty so whats so special about it" stance. When you found out CIA was killing, torturing and imprisoning hundreds of people in black sites in Europe, without any legal entity involved, did you say:"Well every state does it, its just CIA got caught. What's the fuss about?" Because it's the same. We all know Russian intelligence tortures people and makes them suddenly disappear, we know that everyone does it because this is what intelligence agencies do all over the world, even though we pretend to not know about it. But does it make the information we found any less horrible?[/QUOTE]
That's not what he's saying though. Most of his post boils down to
[quote]Politics is all lies and the only way to cut through the lies, to force the truth onto the table and prepare for whatever they're not telling you, is to get information that they don't want you to have. That's spying in a nutshell.[/quote]
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48040666]Yeah everyone spies on everyone[/QUOTE]
What you said was:
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48040150]Also I dont think anyone has been caught bugging a USA president's phone.
This displays complete mistrust to allies.[/QUOTE]
You talk as if other countries don't do this because of some moral high ground, and not the simple fact that they aren't as good at it. Like I said, if you make an argument for why mutual spying is bad I'm willing to hear it. I can definitely agree that it's a moral evil, and in an ideal world we could trust one another. But we can't. And while it may be an evil, in geopolitics it's generally considered a necessary evil because right now there's no better alternative.
So if you want to offer an idea for how we can keep global stability and predict violent uprisings, terrorist movements, and surprise invasions, and do this without countries maintaining strong intelligence collection, then go for it, but 'you don't trust your allies and that's wrong' is almost insultingly naive.
That's not a defense of intelligence overreach, when innocent people are kidnapped and tortured or regular citizens have to worry about intrusion into their personal lives. But pure information-gathering between governments is downright benign by comparison, and if you accept collecting information on the official diplomatic representative of another country as 'usual business' I really don't see how you can indignantly say that collecting information on the official leader of that country is off-limits.
[QUOTE=Native Hunter;48040734]Im honestly curious what this responsibility that you keep saying the USA has is. Is it to not spy on our allies? Is it to stop spying only to restart once the water's cooled down? Because honestly I cant get anything coherent from this other than you think the US should be punished in someway for being caught, which isn't going to happen[/QUOTE]
I just hope for worse France-USA and Germany-USA relationships. Just so that it doesn't become common practice to create huge spying agencies with huge budgets and little control.
[editline]24th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;48040731]He's not saying it makes it okay, he's saying you're throwing stones in glass houses for acting like America is the only one doing it.[/QUOTE]
America is the only one doing it on that scale.
[QUOTE=MIPS;48040050]Americans spying on everyone?
Who would of guessed! v:v:v[/QUOTE]
Uh no
just the American gov't. Don't worry, we hate them too.
isis is spying on the usa and are about to ambush
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48042172]I just hope for worse France-USA and Germany-USA relationships. Just so that it doesn't become common practice to create huge spying agencies with huge budgets and little control.
[editline]24th June 2015[/editline]
America is the only one doing it on that scale.[/QUOTE]
I could've sworn Russia had a very extensive spy network in Eastern Europe, the only thing that put a stop to that was when the Soviet Union finally collapsed.
There's a German film on the subject called "The Lives of Others", I recommend you watch it if you haven't already.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;48042508]I could've sworn Russia had a very extensive spy network in Eastern Europe, the only thing that put a stop to that was when the Soviet Union finally collapsed.
There's a German film on the subject called "The Lives of Others", I recommend you watch it if you haven't already.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention there was this little thing back in January where [url=http://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-we-arrested-a-russian-spy-in-the-bronx-2015-1]3 Russian spies[/url] were caught in New York City, and in court one openly complained that [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11372825/Russian-spies-caught-in-New-York-complained-their-work-was-not-like-James-Bond-films.html]his work was nothing like the glamour of a James Bond film [/url] and did not even involve assuming a new identity.
lets talk about chinas extensive hacking and spying on the US if we think the US is totally alone in this
[QUOTE=Map in a box;48047513]lets talk about chinas extensive hacking and spying on the US if we think the US is totally alone in this[/QUOTE]
China can straight-out get caught doing it mainly because, what really can you do?
Being the main powerhouse of virtually all overseas manufacturing that we switched to in the last 20 years, you push them and they have the ability to economically destroy you. Even the states knows what would happen if they really went after them for any of the reported attacks they've done in the last five years alone. It's lose/lose.
It's similar to the USSR. You really don't want to go in and touch them until they implode and the only way that will happen with China is sheer public uprising at a scale that would shadow the Arab Spring. They have already shown that anything smaller results in bloodshed and censorship.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48040150]I would say this in no way makes it less terrible.
I say terrible because NSA has been caught spying on Germany and France, close allies.
Also I dont think anyone has been caught bugging a USA president's phone.
This displays complete mistrust to allies.[/QUOTE]
Well, they're not presidents, but Germany has been caught spying on John Kerry (current US secretary of state) and Hillary Clinton.
[URL]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/16/germany-spied-john-kerry-hillary-clinton-der-spiegel[/URL]
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
