French women face fine over niqab - Polidicks

[quote] Two French women who continue to wear the full-face veil in defiance of a new law banning it in France are set to appear in court for sentencing. Hind Amas and Kenza Drider were caught wearing the niqab in public outside Meaux town hall, eastern Paris, in May. They could become the first of 91 women stopped by French police to be handed the 150 euro (£130) fine. Campaigners say if a fine is imposed they will appeal against it all the way to the European Court of Human Rights. Thursday's sentencing in Meaux will be closely followed not just here in France but probably right across Europe. Belgium, Italy, Denmark, Austria, the Netherlands and Switzerland all have - or are planning - similar legislation. Assault claims Continue reading the main story Exceptions to ban on public face covering Motorcycle helmets Face-masks for health reasons Face-covering for sporting or professional activities Sunglasses, hats etc which do not completely hide the face Masks used in "traditional activities", such as carnivals or religious processions Source: Radio France International Divorced mother Amas, 32, who will be sentenced with fellow campaigner and mother-of-three Drider, has become a champion for several hundred women in France who insist wearing the niqab is a personal choice and a right enshrined by European law. Hind's parents were not strict Muslims. She put on the niqab for the first time six years ago as an educated single woman. She claims she once wore mini-skirts and liked to party before she rediscovered her faith. Some Muslim groups say since the ban was introduced in April a number of women have been assaulted both verbally and physically by members of the public. These two women would most likely have to exhaust the appeals process here in France - which can take considerable time - before they can hope to test the legislation in the European court in Strasbourg.[/quote] [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15013383[/url] Just follow the fucking laws

Meh, if I can't wear a balaclava in establishment for safety purposes they shouldn't get to have their face covered either, I understand the huge difference between the two here; but personal beliefs don't take priority over things like this. You immigrate to a country, you follow the rules.

[QUOTE=shian;32422646] Just follow the fucking laws[/QUOTE] i think it's a commendable act to violate a law with which you disagree [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=One, Two, Three;32422665]Meh, if I can't wear a balaclava in establishment for safety purposes they shouldn't get to have their face covered either, I understand the huge difference between the two here; but personal beliefs don't take priority over things like this. You immigrate to a country, you follow the rules.[/QUOTE] where in the article does it say that they're immigrants? they could be third, fourth generation french muslims for all you know

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32422697]i think it's a commendable act to violate a law with which you disagree [/QUOTE] The law is the law. If I were to disagree with the law that forbids me to shoot people in the face, would it be a commendable act or a criminal offense?

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32422697]i think it's a commendable act to violate a law with which you disagree [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] where in the article does it say that they're immigrants? they could be third, fourth generation french muslims for all you know[/QUOTE] Ah, I assumed it was someone fresh to the country who didn't want to take off their Niqab because they weren't used to it being the law. After further reading as well it seems this happened in an open area, not a business or anything, in which case confuses me. Are you not allowed to wear them in public at all? [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=jimhowl33t;32422717]The law is the law. If I were to disagree with the law that forbids me to shoot people in the face, would it be a commendable act or a criminal offense?[/QUOTE] That's rash, there's a difference between a security and comfort concern and someone being murdered.

[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;32422717]The law is the law.[/QUOTE] cool. those words mean things [QUOTE=jimhowl33t;32422717] If I were to disagree with the law that forbids me to shoot people in the face, would it be a commendable act or a criminal offense?[/QUOTE] what i meant to say is that the dedication is commendable. considering that I oppose this law, I fully support it's violation as an act of protest. it's the same attitude that I'd bet any of the critics in here saying "just follow the law" would have wrt to whatever their little personal interests are (like piracy or marijuana). wikileaks threads certainly aren't full of people condemning assange for breaking the law, even though he did [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=One, Two, Three;32422732]Ah, I assumed it was someone fresh to the country who didn't want to take off their Niqab because they weren't used to it the law. After further reading as well it seems this happened in an open area, not a business or anything, in which case confuses me. Are you not allowed to wear them in public at all?[/QUOTE] not in public at all. and considering the fact that, correct me if i'm wrong, there has only been one burqa robbery in france in recent history, the whole "it's a safety risk" line seems pretty bogus to me

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32422740] not in public at all.[/QUOTE] Okay, now that seems fucked up to me. Being asked to remove it in an establishment makes perfect sense, I could see the fear of robbery or something of the like being associated with it. But being banned from wearing them at all while in public is pretty bad.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32422697]i think it's a commendable act to violate a law with which you disagree[/QUOTE] It is commendable, but also slightly arrogant to expect the laws to bend to the will of your religion, although in this particular instance it's a matter of personal rights rather than religious rights it would seem. In this case I reckon they were well within their rights to wear a veil as they were in public, it doesn't make much sense that the law doesn't allow for that.

[QUOTE=One, Two, Three;32422753]Okay, now that seems fucked up to me. Being asked to remove it in an establishment makes perfect sense, I could see the fear of robbery or something of the like being associated with it. But being banned from wearing them at all while in public is pretty bad.[/QUOTE] "Pretty bad" is downplaying it. It's blatantly prejudicial. This is state-sponsored discrimination against Muslims. [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32422697]i think it's a commendable act to violate a law with which you disagree [/QUOTE] Absolutely. If I was French I'd be wearing a niqab all the time in public despite being a white male. Hopefully I'd get away with it and use that as ammo against people who say it isn't discriminatory

[QUOTE=One, Two, Three;32422753]Okay, now that seems fucked up to me. Being asked to remove it in an establishment makes perfect sense, I could see the fear of robbery or something of the like being associated with it. But being banned from wearing them at all while in public is pretty bad.[/QUOTE] Bear in mind that the French have never exactly been associated with being the world's bastion of freedom, tolerance, and liberty.

I never understood the difference between a Muslim woman's headscarf/niqab or whatever and those things Nun's wear.

It covers the entire fucking face, what's so hard to understand. Try covering your entire face and just try to walk into a store, you'll no doubt get a hostile reaction telling you to leave even if you're browsing, there was even a video of it where in a mall soon as the person wearing the Balacava walked near the stores the employee's/owners would tell him to get the fuck away or they'd call the police. Allowing someone to wear this will end up having criminals exploit this by pretending to be religious, and then once they're in a store they can easily go up and rob the employee and get away with the face veil on.

[QUOTE=Keyblockor;32423359]It covers the entire fucking face, what's so hard to understand. Try covering your entire face and just try to walk into a store, you'll no doubt get a hostile reaction telling you to leave even if you're browsing, there was even a video of it where in a mall soon as the person wearing the Balacava walked near the stores the employee's/owners would tell him to get the fuck away or they'd call the police. Allowing someone to wear this will end up having criminals exploit this by pretending to be religious, and then once they're in a store they can easily go up and rob the employee and get away with the face veil on.[/QUOTE] yo if you actually fall for the "it's a safety risk" excuse you're pretty naive. "Safety risk" might very well be a legitimate reason for prohibiting them (well not really), but that's not why they were prohibited. They were prohibited as an expression of popular anti-muslim, anti-immigrant sentiment in france and "it's a safety risk" was the best excuse for what was essentially an act of political spite.

[QUOTE=Keyblockor;32423359] Allowing someone to wear this will end up having criminals exploit this by pretending to be religious, and then once they're in a store they can easily go up and rob the employee and get away with the face veil on.[/QUOTE] That makes no fucking sense, that's like saying we should ban sweaters and caps because sometimes people enter a store and pretend to be a normal guy with a sweater and cap and then rob an employee.

[QUOTE=BrQ;32423496]That makes no fucking sense, that's like saying we should ban sweaters and caps because sometimes people enter a store and pretend to be a normal guy with a sweater and cap and then rob an employee.[/QUOTE] Some places in the US have banned hooded jackets in public areas due to its use by criminals to hide themselves.

i hope they take this shit to the European Court of Human Rights and win and france is pressured into getting rid of this bullshit (though ultimately it's their choice obviously). like zeke said, this is simply state-sponsored discrimination in a thinly-veiled guise of public safety [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;32423548]Some places in the US have banned hooded jackets in public areas due to its use by criminals to hide themselves.[/QUOTE] i propose banning pockets because you can put weapons in pockets

I like this law, it's rather unpleasant to talk to someone in person without being able to see their face. Unless it is part of a sex act, then I'm more than alright with it.

[QUOTE=Kalibos;32423587]i propose banning pockets because you can put weapons in pockets[/QUOTE] Why don't we just ban clothes so we all can run around naked in the streets?

[QUOTE=Kalibos;32423587]i hope they take this shit to the European Court of Human Rights and win and france is pressured into getting rid of this bullshit (though ultimately it's their choice obviously). like zeke said, this is simply state-sponsored discrimination in a thinly-veiled guise of public safety [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] i propose banning pockets because you can put weapons in pockets[/QUOTE] French people don't like people living in their country without taking part of the French culture. Wearing a niwab that covers your face as a symbol of your Islamic faith is not something the French think of as something that is even remotely close to their culture, and if you live in France you should act like you live in France. So if you remove this ban, expect more laws against immigration as well as a lot of people getting deported. This law exists as the less drastic measure to keep the French culture intact, remove it and shit will hit the fan.

I agree with this law, there are ridiculous laws in islamic countries that we would be expected to follow if we went there so why should they expect different treatment?

[QUOTE=Simski;32423679]French people don't like people living in their country without taking part of the French culture. Wearing a niwab that covers your face as an islamic religious symbol is not something the French think of as something that is even remotely close to their culture, and if you live in France you should act like you live in France.[/QUOTE] incredibly xenophobic. how about they try setting a precedent in multiculturalism. they're one of the most highly developed nations in the world ffs [QUOTE=Simski;32423679]So if you remove this ban, expect more laws against immigration as well as a lot of people getting deported.[/QUOTE] deported for what? not wearing the right colored shoes? [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Stormcharger;32423714]I agree with this law, there are ridiculous laws in islamic countries that we would be expected to follow if we went there so why should they expect different treatment?[/QUOTE] idea: as free, first world nations, let's set an example in personal liberties and societal integration for the rest of the world to learn from and follow

[QUOTE=Kalibos;32423730] idea: as free, first world nations, let's set an example in personal liberties and societal integration for the rest of the world to learn from and follow[/QUOTE] If that worked, every nation would be free and first world :v:

In some countries the Hijab is enforced. The difference is, if you turned up there without one, they wouldn't ask you to remove it nicely or give you a petty fine:- [quote]Sudan's criminal code allows the flogging or fining of anyone who “violates public morality or wears indecent clothing”[/quote] Take that to the court of human rights, if anything.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;32423777]If that worked, every nation would be free and first world :v:[/QUOTE] yes, ain't that the sad truth. but that was in response to places like saudi arabia

When I talk to someone, I want to see their goddamn face. This is how it is in Europe and most of the world. If Muslims don't like it then guess what, DON'T FUCKING COME HERE. They should be glad we recognize their religion and give them citizenship, so they should at least have the common decency to integrate into the society they choose to join. Veils aren't helping with this, they're distancing the people who wear them from us.

[QUOTE=Simski;32423611]I like this law, it's rather unpleasant to talk to someone in person without being able to see their face. Unless it is part of a sex act, then I'm more than alright with it.[/QUOTE] So we should ban certain pieces of clothing because 'it's rather unpleasant'?

[QUOTE=Kalibos;32423730]incredibly xenophobic. how about they try setting a precedent in multiculturalism. they're one of the most highly developed nations in the world ffs[/QUOTE] It may be xenophobic, but it is the truth. At least from what I've heard by the other statements in news threads regarding this ban. French people are proud of their culture and they don't want to be a multicultural country, they want to be Frenchmen. This ban is their way of saying "You are welcome to stay here, but please act like one of us". [QUOTE=Kalibos;32423730]deported for what? not wearing the right colored shoes?[/QUOTE] No, more likely they will make it a lot harder for people to become real French citizens. This also means stricter laws against people who haven't lived in France long enough, doesn't have French relatives, and aren't born in France. Removing this ban risks more people getting sent back to their homeland. [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=BrQ;32423858]So we should ban certain pieces of clothing because 'it's rather unpleasant'?[/QUOTE] Nope, but it being unpleasant is a plus regarding this ban.

[QUOTE=Maxx;32423843]They should be glad we recognize their religion and give them citizenship[/QUOTE] how empathetic of you. "you're lucky I even recognize your right to pray and walk on this street!" [QUOTE=Maxx;32423843]so they should at least have the common decency to integrate into the society they choose to join.[/QUOTE] so in your opinion it's not enough that they integrate into the society in every [other] way that counts? they learn the language, get jobs, pay taxes, send their children to school, pollute the environment, but wearing that veil is [B]crossing the fucking line.[/B]

multiculturalism only works if there is integration. i.e. not praying in public areas and thoroughfares [editline]22nd September 2011[/editline] I don't see why muslim women get special concessions to hide their identities while the rest of society can't?

[QUOTE=Simski;32423861]It may be xenophobic, but it is the truth. At least from what I've heard by the other statements in news threads regarding this ban. French people are proud of their culture and they don't want to be a multicultural country, they want to be Frenchmen. This ban is their way of saying "You are welcome to stay here, but please act like one of us".[/QUOTE] In my opinion, being a nation of xenophobes isn't something to be proud of. But to each his own. Lots of room in Canada, my Islamic friends. There's even Quebec for your France-away-from-France, if you can stand the terrible accents. Poutine, though.