Personally, I haven't done enough research to form a full opinion, though since the incident a lot of new information has surfaced. The original arguments for it being a conspiracy in 2012 when it happened were quickly debunked, but it didn't take long for some troubling evidence to surface. The purpose of this thread is to gather opinions, and I would love it if someone could address or debunk certain aspects of the oddities about the Sandy Hook shooting.
This video presents a lot of valid points, please try to ignore the cheesy introduction and editing. I've done some digging and I haven't been able to find anything to refute most of the main points that this video makes.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TImCVU79PXQp[/media]
The main points I would like to address and get to the bottom of about this are:
1. Why were there so many breaches of protocol with start triage?
2. Why does the coroner claim the victims were all shot with the long rifle even though media outlets maintained the only rifle was found in the trunk of a car?
3. I do find it odd that someone with as little qualifications as Adam Lanza was able to produce 26 victims each reportedly having 3-11 shots fired into them in 5-7 minutes. This is only anecdotal, but it does raise questions.
4. Why were there 26 christmas trees behind the firehouse the day of the shooting, which, the next day were planted in honor of the 26 victims?
5. Why were death certificates never released?
6. Why were the parents never brought into contact with the children's bodies? (I know parents, all of them have told me they would insist on seeing the body)
7. Why were there no decorations in the windows of Sandy Hook around Christmas time? (As the video states, there are lots of regulations now on what you can and can not decorate around the holiday season, however essentially ALL elementary schools I see around that time of year still have windows covered with snowflakes, reindeer, etc)
8. Why were there no security cameras the day of the shooting and no security footage whatsoever?
9. Why are several of the "family photos" very poorly photoshopped/doctored?
10. Why in news footage are people just ambling around and walking in circles and walking in the front of the firehouse and out the back in nearly a single file line?
11. Why was the school completely demolished and rebuilt?
12. Now - this may or may not be true. But many of the "unnamed children" from Newton, CT who sang at the superbowl in 2013 largely resemble some of the supposed victims of the shooting. I find this odd, but it's a bit too hard to tell for sure.
13. Why is "Lt. Vance" threatening people who are spreading "misinformation" about the Sandy Hook incident with persecution? (Considering that's a breach of free speech in itself)
Here is another interesting source for information that brings up many of the points I just said
[url]http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/01/07/top-ten-reasons-sandy-hook-was-an-elaborate-hoax/[/url]
This website in general seems very quick to dismiss anyone who speculates about a possible conspiracy as crazy, but the objective information does not change. Please take a look for yourself and make your own decisions, I want to hear some input on the subject.
[editline]17th September 2014[/editline]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=051GuneTb38[/url]
Here's another interesting video (mostly commentary) regarding the lack of autopsy photos
[b]Edit:[/b]
Oh, just read the rules for this section. I guess I have to take an official standpoint in this thread. For the sake of debate, I'm going to say it was a hoax.
i dont think so
It's the nature of conspiracy theories to try to poke holes in the generally accepted theory without actually providing anything that supports an alternative theory. The only "support" you offered that it was a hoax was 13 questions in a numbered list, where you nitpicked at minute details of the day of the shooting, some of which have obvious answers or were just dumb, meaningless coincidences.
Also the question about why they demolished the school is easily answered. Even if you don't agree with why, you should at least be able to figure out their motive. Nobody wants their kid going to the school that hosted the deadliest school shooting in US history. It really is as simple as that. It kind of seems like a no brainer when you have tens of millions of dollars in donations coming in too.
[QUOTE=Falubii;46003880]It's the nature of conspiracy theories to try to poke holes in the generally accepted theory without actually providing anything that supports an alternative theory. The only "support" you offered that it was a hoax was 13 questions in a numbered list, where you nitpicked at minute details of the day of the shooting, some of which have obvious answers or were just dumb, meaningless coincidences.
Also the question about why they demolished the school is easily answered. Even if you don't agree with why, you should at least be able to figure out their motive. Nobody wants their kid going to the school that hosted the deadliest school shooting in US history. It really is as simple as that. It kind of seems like a no brainer when you have tens of millions of dollars in donations coming in too.[/QUOTE]
You should look into it a little bit yourself and not base your entire response and opinions off of 13 brief points I listed.
[QUOTE=Perfumly;46003953]You should look into it a little bit yourself and not base your entire response and opinions off of 13 brief points I listed.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately I don't have the time. This is typically where a conspiracy theorist would declare I'm being a close-minded sheeple, but I know that if the conspiracy theorists had anything actually worth mentioning, some evidence that actually meant something, I would have heard about it by now (or if they do find something, I will hear about it in the future [sp]they won't[/sp]).
[QUOTE=Perfumly;46003106]12. Now - this may or may not be true. But many of the "unnamed children" from Newton, CT who sang at the superbowl in 2013 largely resemble some of the supposed victims of the shooting. I find this odd, but it's a bit too hard to tell for sure.[/QUOTE]
Alright, I can't leave this one, it's too hilarious. How fucking bad would you have to be at perpetrating a conspiracy to place your "actors" that are supposed to be dead in the most televised event of the year. How god damn stupid would that be? Like, seriously?
[QUOTE=Perfumly;46003953]You should look into it a little bit yourself and not base your entire response and opinions off of 13 brief points I listed.[/QUOTE]
You should look into "burden of proof"
[QUOTE=Falubii;46004146]Unfortunately I don't have the time. This is typically where a conspiracy theorist would declare I'm being a close-minded sheeple, but I know that if the conspiracy theorists had anything actually worth mentioning, some evidence that actually meant something, I would have heard about it by now (or if they do find something, I will hear about it in the future [sp]they won't[/sp]).
Alright, I can't leave this one, it's too hilarious. How fucking bad would you have to be at perpetrating a conspiracy to place your "actors" that are supposed to be dead in the most televised event of the year. How god damn stupid would that be? Like, seriously?[/QUOTE]
"I don't have time to think for myself but I do have time to post in a debate about whether or not something is a conspiracy on an internet forum"
Okie dokie
[editline]17th September 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;46004352]You should look into "burden of proof"[/QUOTE]
There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the event was entirely contrived IN VIDEOS PROVIDED BY MAINSTREAM MEDIA. Look at the video and links in the OP ffs.
[QUOTE=Perfumly;46004371]
There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the event was entirely contrived IN VIDEOS PROVIDED BY MAINSTREAM MEDIA. Look at the video and links in the OP ffs.[/QUOTE]
If that's the case, feel free to post some tidbits of this evidence in this thread, rather than directing everyone to sit through a 90 minute video or scour the internet.
[QUOTE=Falubii;46004404]If that's the case, feel free to post some tidbits of this evidence in this thread, rather than directing everyone to sit through a 90 minute video or scour the internet.[/QUOTE]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMINqFGNr-w[/media]
Tell me the actors from "the room" wouldn't have done a better job
[img]http://megatronicsmedia.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/soto-class-new-1.jpg[/img]
Do you [b]actually[/b] believe this photo was taken in 2012? These are the clothes kids wore before *I* was in first grade. And I'm 20.
[img]http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/sandy-hook-hoax.jpg[/img]
If you look at the top photograph on its own, which can be found on google, there is one leg between the two girls sitting on his lap. The girl on the left has no legs, the body positioning doesnt make sense, and the photograph is pretty obviously photoshopped.
[img]http://www.freedomslips.com/images/10ek4jr.jpg[/img]
Another image of Parker is meant to portray him as younger, he has a receded hairline, but the photoshopping on his hairline is extremely blatant in this photo. The body positioning in this photo also does not make sense. The grass in the foreground on the left is in focus, where as the grass in the foreground on the right is not. Focus works with distance, this goes against how a camera lens works.
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Jw5STCE_uNc/UQ6njDQyHyI/AAAAAAAAF5s/o-bZCC1I13I/s1600/Sitting-on-a-rock-in-the-bay-hoping-the-fraud-will-go-away.png[/img]
this picture of the sotos makes absolutely no sense. All of the shadows point in different directions, all of the people are superimposed into the photograph against a background of water.
This is not evidence. You are not debating right now.
[QUOTE=Perfumly;46004475][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMINqFGNr-w[/media]
Tell me the actors from "the room" wouldn't have done a better job
[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opponent-process_theory#Motivation_and_Emotion[/url]
[QUOTE=Perfumly;46004475]
[img]http://megatronicsmedia.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/soto-class-new-1.jpg[/img]
Do you [b]actually[/b] believe this photo was taken in 2012?[/QUOTE]
yeah
[QUOTE=Perfumly;46004475]
[img]http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/sandy-hook-hoax.jpg[/img]
If you look at the top photograph on its own, which can be found on google, there is one leg between the two girls sitting on his lap. The girl on the left has no legs, the body positioning doesnt make sense, and the photograph is pretty obviously photoshopped.
[/QUOTE]
the younger daughter is the same age in the Obama photo as Amile was in the family photo. She is wearing the dress because they are children and they grow and wear hand-me-downs your thing about the legs makes no sense and you can find the exact same photo from different angles
[IMG]https://www.metabunk.org/data/MetaMirrorCache/contrailscience.com_skitch_skitched_20130109_140256.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Perfumly;46004475]
[img]http://www.freedomslips.com/images/10ek4jr.jpg[/img]
Another image of Parker is meant to portray him as younger, he has a receded hairline, but the photoshopping on his hairline is extremely blatant in this photo. The body positioning in this photo also does not make sense. The grass in the foreground on the left is in focus, where as the grass in the foreground on the right is not. Focus works with distance, this goes against how a camera lens works.
[/QUOTE]
the grass on the right is clearly much closer to the camera, it's even noticeably bigger, come on dude
[QUOTE=Perfumly;46004475]
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Jw5STCE_uNc/UQ6njDQyHyI/AAAAAAAAF5s/o-bZCC1I13I/s1600/Sitting-on-a-rock-in-the-bay-hoping-the-fraud-will-go-away.png[/img]
this picture of the sotos makes absolutely no sense. All of the shadows point in different directions, all of the people are superimposed into the photograph against a background of water.[/QUOTE]
The shadows are fine, you're confusing the curvature of their poses for the angle of the shadow.
Finally, put all of these through the[URL="http://fotoforensics.com/"] forensics analysis tool[/URL]. While not foolproof, it's certainly more reliable than the human eye.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;46004690][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opponent-process_theory#Motivation_and_Emotion[/url]
yeah
the younger daughter is the same age in the Obama photo as Amile was in the family photo. She is wearing the dress because they are children and they grow and wear hand-me-downs your thing about the legs makes no sense and you can find the exact same photo from different angles
[IMG]https://www.metabunk.org/data/MetaMirrorCache/contrailscience.com_skitch_skitched_20130109_140256.jpg[/IMG]
the grass on the right is clearly much closer to the camera, it's even noticeably bigger, come on dude
The shadows are fine, you're confusing the curvature of their poses for the angle of the shadow.
Finally, put all of these through the[URL="http://fotoforensics.com/"] forensics analysis tool[/URL]. While not foolproof, it's certainly more reliable than the human eye.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't referring to the legs in the picture with Obama.
The grass on the left still would not be so perfectly in focus in comparison, I'm pretty experienced with photography. The effect of aperture on a camera is not that dramatic over such a short distance, also look at his knee and the daughter on the right's leg in the picture with the grass. Her left leg doesn't exist and her right leg is bent at an angle that doesn't make sense.
And I'm sorry but no - [img]http://media.nj.com/gloucestercounty_impact/photo/10561570-large.jpg[/img] [b] this is what a class in an elementary school in 2012 looks like [/b]
and here is a class photo from 1998
[img]http://murderpedia.org/male.L/images/lanza-adam/adam-lanza-2.jpg[/img]
.
Parker's bad acting isn't a lack of emotion. It's terrible acting. That's how someone would act if they were a terrible actor and trying to look sad.
[editline]17th September 2014[/editline]
[img]http://blog.cleveland.com/obituaries_impact/2008/11/atamanecclass.jpg[/img]
Here is another class photo from the 1980s.
[img]http://talbotspy.org/files/2014/05/TalbotBank_EastonElementaryKindergartenClass.jpg[/img]
Here is another class photo from the later 2000s.
[QUOTE=Perfumly;46004738]I wasn't referring to the legs in the picture with Obama.
The grass on the left still would not be so perfectly in focus in comparison, I'm pretty experienced with photography. The effect of aperture on a camera is not that dramatic over such a short distance, also look at his knee and the daughter on the right's leg in the picture with the grass. Her left leg doesn't exist and her right leg is bent at an angle that doesn't make sense.[/QUOTE]
Both of her legs are there, which "right" are you referring to? Her right, or our right. Not that it actually matters, as both legs are totally there, and that isn't that weird a position to be sat in. It's entirely possible to sit like that, it looks like her lower body is at an angle to fit in behind Dads leg, and her upper is facing the camera, but that's still a normal-ish position to sit in for a quick shot like that.
The grass on the left is about the same distance as the leg on the farthest left, it would be just as much in focus as that leg, I'm pretty certain of that.
I know you're a "fuck da popo" guy Perfumly, but why the fuck have you now taken up conspiracy shit? What conceivable purpose would a government like the US government have to kill kids? It doesn't help anybodies agendas outside of terrorists, and there is no fucking way your government is competent enough to have kept this hidden for even a week if it was a conspiracy.
This is just grasping at straws, finding evidence where there really isn't any based on speculation and assumption that you are correct.
you posted a casual classroom not "let's dress up because it's class photo day"
[IMG]http://puu.sh/bCWyI/7abdaea4f6.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=hexpunK;46004803]I know you're a "fuck da popo" guy Perfumly, but why the fuck have you now taken up conspiracy shit? What conceivable purpose would a government like the US government have to kill kids? It doesn't help anybodies agendas outside of terrorists, and there is no fucking way your government is competent enough to have kept this hidden for even a week if it was a conspiracy.
This is just grasping at straws, finding evidence where there really isn't any based on speculation and assumption that you are correct.[/QUOTE]
I really suggest you watch the video. You won't regret it. I'm just going to let everyone come in here and give their two cents without looking into it at all because that's all that's going to come out of it. I don't know what I was thinking trying to spread some objective information around. It's very difficult to convey all of the evidence in the video over a forum post considering a very large portion of the evidence is videographic (from the MSM none the less).
[editline]17th September 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;46004805]you posted a casual classroom not "let's dress up because it's class photo day"
[IMG]http://puu.sh/bCWyI/7abdaea4f6.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Dress clothes from the 1980s and 90s are not the same as dress clothes from the later 2000's m8. The photo quality also suggests it was an old photo - especially for such a supposedly prestigious school with lots of funding. If you can find me a class photo from 2009+ that looks like that I will entirely rest my case on that photograph.
the steroids got to ur head lol
This is the exact same thing all conspiracy theorist do with every "theory" ever.
"The shadows from the moon rocks are going the wrong way!"
"JFK's head moved weird, the video's been finessed!"
"The dust from that floor of the World Trade Center looks funny!"
They pick out inane details that they don't know how to explain off the top of their head and use them to justify their already established conclusion. It's the reverse scientific method.
Another commonality between these conspiracy theories is the absolute lack of a motive, or an insane motive/goal.
[editline]17th September 2014[/editline]
Conspiracy theories are made up of unfalsifyable claims and there's no point in arguing against them. Any possible proof or explanation you can offer will, in fact, solidify the conspiracy theorist's argument because he'll claim that it's just more proof of a cover up. It's an infinite regression of excuses and claims; just another dragon in my garage.
I find this interesting Perfumly and I believe a lot of people here are just being narrow minded and just accepting what was told by mass media instead of doing research themselves. Not that there is any conspiracy or ulterior event that happened that day, for I am uneducated about the event past what the news said. Thanks for bringing this up though.
[QUOTE=Perfumly;46004475]
Do you [b]actually[/b] believe this photo was taken in 2012? These are the clothes kids wore before *I* was in first grade. And I'm 20.
[/QUOTE]
are you being serious? walk into a elementary school classroom and tell me they're not wearing the same style of clothing.
[editline]17th September 2014[/editline]
actually, don't
[QUOTE=HoliestCow;46005103]I find this interesting Perfumly and I believe a lot of people here are just being narrow minded and just accepting what was told by mass media instead of doing research themselves. Not that there is any conspiracy or ulterior event that happened that day, for I am uneducated about the event past what the news said. Thanks for bringing this up though.[/QUOTE]
Generally I'm only interested in the opinions of people who have taken the time to go through the information themselves. So, if you have the time to look through it you should get back to me with what you think. I would be interested in hearing.0
[editline]17th September 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=elitehakor;46005399]are you being serious? walk into a elementary school classroom and tell me they're not wearing the same style of clothing.
[editline]17th September 2014[/editline]
actually, don't[/QUOTE]
I live a block away from an elementary school. Kids walk past my house every single day looking nothing like that.
This is just further proof that Obama is a reptilian. Thanks for contributing to finding the truth about our reptilian overlords Perfumly.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;46005523]This is just further proof that Obama is a reptilian. Thanks for contributing to finding the truth about our reptilian overlords Perfumly.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for debating like a true intellectual.
More to the point;
I think the most damning thing is just that conga line around the police station. What the hell was going on there?
If they had evacuated the school quickly and orderly, and the triage ran smoothly and there were no fuck ups at the parking lot, then that would be evidence of pre-planning the shooting.
Do you see how this is an unfalsifyable position? Once you've concluded that an all-powerful shadow government was behind everything, no outcome would be sufficient to disprove your claim.
[QUOTE=Explosions;46005813]If they had evacuated the school quickly and orderly, and the triage ran smoothly and there were no fuck ups at the parking lot, then that would be evidence of pre-planning the shooting.
Do you see how this is an unfalsifyable position? Once you've concluded that an all-powerful shadow government was behind everything, no outcome would be sufficient to disprove your claim.[/QUOTE]
How is conflicting evidence, and attempting to falsify the official story, an unfalsifiable position? If the evidence which conflicts were to be explained away, then would we not be falsified?
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;46005857]How is conflicting evidence, and attempting to falsify the official story, an unfalsifiable position? If the evidence which conflicts were to be explained away, then would we not be falsified?[/QUOTE]
because the goalposts just keep getting moved
"triage sucked therefore it was a preplanned event"
"since everyone was perfectly triaged it was a preplanned event"
[QUOTE=LordCrypto;46005895]because the goalposts just keep getting moved
"triage sucked therefore it was a preplanned event"
"since everyone was perfectly triaged it was a preplanned event"[/QUOTE]
That's not true at all. MCI protocol was not followed [b]at all[/b] if start triage was done properly and there were actually any crime scene photos or even photos of adam lanza's or his mother's autopsy then we would have something to go off. There is no law that would inhibit the release of Adam Lanza's autopsy photos considering he is an adult (implying he's a real person at all)
When there is a REAL CATASTROPHE MCI protocol is pretty much ALWAYS followed. Please watch the video so you can see just how many things were amiss. It's mind boggling how many things were [b]not[/b] done that would normally be done in a crisis situation like this. My mother works closely with EMTs and my girlfriend works in a hospital, through them and looking standard procedures up myself, they did pretty much nothing as if it was an actual crisis.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;46005857]How is conflicting evidence, and attempting to falsify the official story, an unfalsifiable position? If the evidence which conflicts were to be explained away, then would we not be falsified?[/QUOTE]
I'm not really addressing any of this conflicting "evidence" that Perfumly posted here. I'm talking generally about my past experiences with this conspiracy and others, where it is almost impossible if not completely impossible to disprove their presupposed conclusions.
I am greatly in favor of questioning evidence if you have concerns about its validity (even though I'm not really interested in discussing that sort of thing). That's how we come to a consensus about things. But the problem is that 99 times out of 100, the reason a person questions this type of evidence is because they already hold ridiculous nonsense beliefs about New World Orders and FEMA death camps and other equally unsupported bullshit.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;46005713]Thanks for debating like a true intellectual.
More to the point;
I think the most damning thing is just that conga line around the police station. What the hell was going on there?[/QUOTE]
Damning of what? Like seriously what does that prove at all? Even if people were walking in circles for no reason, that would not be enough for any of the claims Perfumly has made to be true.
Here's one of several alternative explanations you could make though, besides this being a massive government conspiracy featuring hundreds of actors. Maybe, just maybe, the people were at the firehouse to see if their children were injured. I've only seen one clip that "shows" people circling around the building and entering through the back, but all I really see is people going to the road to reach their cars. And even if they were going in circles, maybe people were checking on the latest updates and they couldn't have hundreds of people in the building at once, so they made them get leave. When they left maybe they wanted to get back in line so maybe there is some news by the time they get back to whoever they were talking to.
Then when they're all leaving one building and going into another they could have been:
A. Going to another section of the firehouse to do something else or talk with someone else
B. Taking a shortcut through the building because the fire dept. wanted that street cleared up for some reason (like emergency vehicles being able to leave).
But really I'm just speculating based off of a few minutes of video with no real way to tell exactly what was going on. It sure as fuck is a more accurate guess than "Well, must have been a government perpetrated hoax with hundreds of actors."
[QUOTE=Perfumly;46005915]That's not true at all. MCI protocol was not followed [b]at all[/b] if start triage was done properly and there were actually any crime scene photos or even photos of adam lanza's or his mother's autopsy then we would have something to go off. There is no law that would inhibit the release of Adam Lanza's autopsy photos considering he is an adult (implying he's a real person at all)
When there is a REAL CATASTROPHE MCI protocol is pretty much ALWAYS followed. Please watch the video so you can see just how many things were amiss. It's mind boggling how many things were [b]not[/b] done that would normally be done in a crisis situation like this. My mother works closely with EMTs and my girlfriend works in a hospital, through them and looking standard procedures up myself, they did pretty much nothing as if it was an actual crisis.[/QUOTE]
coroners are not always fantastic public speakers
anyways, nothing we say will be able to convince you perfumly, as you've already made the leap to see a massive government conspiracy
[QUOTE=Falubii;46005962]Damning of what? Like seriously what does that prove at all? Even if people were walking in circles for no reason, that would not be enough for any of the claims Perfumly has made to be true.
Here's one of several alternative explanations you could make though, besides this being a massive government conspiracy featuring hundreds of actors. Maybe, just maybe, the people were at the firehouse to see if their children were injured. I've only seen one clip that "shows" people circling around the building and entering through the back, but all I really see is people going to the road to reach their cars. And even if they were going in circles, maybe people were checking on the latest updates and they couldn't have hundreds of people in the building at once, so they made them get leave. When they left maybe they wanted to get back in line so maybe there is some news by the time they get back to whoever they were talking to.
Then when they're all leaving one building and going into another they could have been:
A. Going to another section of the firehouse to do something else or talk with someone else
B. Taking a shortcut through the building because the fire dept. wanted that street cleared up for some reason (like emergency vehicles being able to leave).
But really I'm just speculating based off of a few minutes of video with no real way to tell exactly what was going on. It sure as fuck is a more accurate guess than "Well, must have been a government perpetrated hoax with hundreds of actors."[/QUOTE]
What do you make of the intimidation tactics used by Lt. Vance @ 1:09:55
[editline]17th September 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=LordCrypto;46005990]coroners are not always fantastic public speakers
anyways, nothing we say will be able to convince you perfumly, as you've already made the leap to see a massive government conspiracy[/QUOTE]
I'm not talking about the coroner speaking? I'm talking about them not responding to the situation as if it was a crisis situation? Why has every other shooting in this country been reported and covered so drastically differently?
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