Carrier says it will spend millions automating Indiana plant, plans to lay off workers Trump 'saved' - Polidicks

[url]https://thinkprogress.org/carrier-automation-trump-deal-more-layoffs-db2554f46297#.aggcfdi9n[/url] [QUOTE] As part of the deal President-elect Donald Trump and Vice President-elect Mike Pence struck with Carrier, the company has promised to make a $16 million investment in its Indianapolis facility  -  an investment management plans to use on developing technology that will allow them to replace human workers with robots. The company's plans were confirmed by Greg Hayes, CEO of United Technologies, Carrier's corporate parent, during a CNBC interview earlier this week. [B]"We’re going to… automate to drive the cost down so that we can continue to be competitive,"[/B] Hayes said. "Is it as cheap as moving to Mexico with lower cost labor? No. But we will make that plant competitive just because we’ll make the capital investments there. [B]But what that ultimately means is there will be fewer jobs."[/B] [...] While the timing remains unclear, Jones said on Thursday that he expects cuts beyond the 550 layoffs that will happen in spite of Trump’s deal. "Automation means less people," he said during a CNN interview. [B]"I think we’ll have a reduction of workforce at some point in time once they get all the automation in and up and running."[/B] [/QUOTE] :goodjob:

the jobs were already dead and gone they were either going to go to robots or to overseas sources

thanks for saving jobs that don't exist real great

All they wanted were looser restrictions. What a surprising revelation.

I thought Trump was a good businessman. Did he really not see this coming? I'm a little surprised, but surely someone who's supposedly good at business should know these things...?

[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51505642]I thought Trump was a good businessman. Did he really not see this coming? I'm a little surprised, but surely someone who's supposedly good at business should know these things...?[/QUOTE] He doesn't care.

[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51505642]I thought Trump was a good businessman. Did he really not see this coming? I'm a little surprised, but surely someone who's supposedly good at business should know these things...?[/QUOTE] He got the good PR. What happens after is just the small print.

[QUOTE=patrioticturtle;51505675]He got the good PR. What happens after is just the small print.[/QUOTE] I don't think this "Good PR" will last when the people who benefit didn't benefit and have just been lied to. They won't forget. They probably won't forgive.

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;51505697]Okay? People still have to build the robots, write the software they run on, manage the plant, maintain the production line. Some jobs is better than none. I get that it's a trivial number of jobs in the grand scheme of things and probably a publicity stunt but it's better than it going overseas.[/QUOTE] Trivial jobs, that aren't in the wheel houses, or work loads of the people who would have gotten their jobs back Trivial jobs that only last as long as the setup period does, then you have a few technicians and workers for repairs and maintenance, nothing more.

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;51505697]Okay? People still have to build the robots, write the software they run on, manage the plant, maintain the production line. Some jobs is better than none. I get that it's a trivial number of jobs in the grand scheme of things and probably a publicity stunt but it's better than it going overseas.[/QUOTE] here's the thing: the kind of people who work on air conditioning production lines are not the same people who program robots that build air conditioners

Like can we stop acting like this is a good thing in anyway? I know your perogative is to sell everything as a positive at the moment, but it's not like you "Lose" by admitting he's fucking up royally here.

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;51505697]Okay? People still have to build the robots, write the software they run on, manage the plant, maintain the production line. Some jobs is better than none. I get that it's a trivial number of jobs in the grand scheme of things and probably a publicity stunt but it's better than it going overseas.[/QUOTE] The problem is is that those weren't the jobs that Trump saved; those are the jobs that the robots are replacing. The software building in particular requires a high amount of skills and usually university education. There will be few of those.

Wow, is it really going to be that easy to manipulate our new president? That's pathetic.

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;51505697]Okay? People still have to build the robots, write the software they run on, manage the plant, maintain the production line. Some jobs is better than none. I get that it's a trivial number of jobs in the grand scheme of things and probably a publicity stunt but it's better than it going overseas.[/QUOTE] These jobs are already filled. There are already robotics and automation engineers working on the hardware that Carrier will be buying. Most of it is designed to be a modular system after all. Robotic arms are generally one size fits all, you just need the tooling on the end for your task and a program to follow (run by software that is already written).

[video]https://youtu.be/7Pq-S557XQU[/video] So when do we start to think about what will happen to our society when robots will take over most jobs?

[QUOTE=NapyDaWise;51505845]So when do we start to think about what will happen to our society when robots will take over most jobs?[/QUOTE] They won't until it's far too late, just like with Climate Change.

You guys are blaming Trump, who had literally nothing to do with Carrier leaving, like he was the one responsible in the first place. For fucks sake, there's a net gain here. It was lose all 1500 or keep 1000 a bit longer. It's like people will fabricate any fucking story just to get their point across that "Trump is bad wahh!!!". The dude isn't even in office yet. Last I checked, Carrier decided to leave when Obama was in office so maybe someone should make up some bullshit about how "Obama let 1500 jobs out of the country!!!!!".

[QUOTE=Smoot;51505915]You guys are blaming Trump, who had literally nothing to do with Carrier leaving, like he was the one responsible in the first place. For fucks sake, there's a net gain here. It was lose all 1500 or keep 1000 a bit longer.[/QUOTE] so we should clap for bandaid solutions that do nothing to actually address the problems? Okay that sounds like the problematic method that has been used for decades now and we were told Trump was going to be different even if we didn't believe that some people did how is this acceptable

[QUOTE=Smoot;51505915]You guys are blaming Trump, who had literally nothing to do with Carrier leaving, like he was the one responsible in the first place. For fucks sake, there's a net gain here. It was lose all 1500 or keep 1000 a bit longer.[/QUOTE] In the end, Carrier got government handouts and gets to lay off everyone they planned on anyway. It is absolutely trumps fault because he proved himself a bad business man who got scammed, before he even took office.

Is this the part where we all start acting like these jobs matter and this is damning of Trumps presidency, when the original thread about this was pretty much unanimous that the jobs were too little anyway and [I]that[/I] was damning of Trump's presidency too?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51505928]so we should clap for bandaid solutions that do nothing to actually address the problems? Okay that sounds like the problematic method that has been used for decades now and we were told Trump was going to be different even if we didn't believe that some people did how is this acceptable[/QUOTE] It's literally capitalism. Why the president or president-elect is even putting their hand in the jar is beyond me, but i guess he is trying. I probably look really pro Trump here, but IMO he should stay the fuck out of individual companies ideals and make sweeping changes on a country wide basis to remove the bias. If I was a company and I could save a fuck ton of money by moving to Mexico, you bet your ass I'm going to do it. People should be pissed at Carrier, not Trump or Obama or anyone else that didn't sign these jobs away in the first place. I bet nobody here even knows the name of the CEO of Carrier.

[QUOTE=NapyDaWise;51505845][video]https://youtu.be/7Pq-S557XQU[/video] So when do we start to think about what will happen to our society when robots will take over most jobs?[/QUOTE] Either universal basic income becomes a thing or everything's fucked.

[QUOTE=Bazsil;51505939]Is this the part where we all start acting like these jobs matter and this is damning of Trumps presidency, when the original thread about this was pretty much unanimous that the jobs were too little anyway and [I]that[/I] was damning of Trump's presidency too?[/QUOTE] ITs literally all a bad sign

Posted this in the video section, but I think it is probably more relevant here: [video=youtube;xSxgTOg_8r4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSxgTOg_8r4[/video]

I'd prefer it if you just summarized his argument or made the argument yourself but I'm assuming that since it's shapiro it'll be about the crony capitalism aspect right? [QUOTE=Electrocuter;51505942]Either universal basic income becomes a thing or everything's fucked.[/QUOTE] But the bad thing is we really can't push for UBI yet, the US just has some horrible problems right now preventing it, mostly in housing/healthcare, you know, cost of living, also taxation. Most UBI systems proposed set it at just above the poverty line, which for the US, is just 14,000 a year. Do you honestly think anyone can remotely live off of that pretty much anywhere in the country? Not really. Also, it costs 4.5 trillion a year. Not happening with our current tax structure, and you'll also have to rip out huge amounts of regulations and laws to put it in as well (which is a plus overall.) So I think the situation will have to be pretty dire for the US to get it. [sp]psst there's also various forms of socialism just saying ☭☭☭[/sp] I mean, what would be a decent amount of money to survive off of? I think that 25k would be doable to scrape by for most of the US but uh. we can't pay for that yet. Not with how we view taxation and whatnot. [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax[/URL] I like something like this as a model though.

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;51505697]Okay? People still have to build the robots, write the software they run on, manage the plant, maintain the production line. Some jobs is better than none. I get that it's a trivial number of jobs in the grand scheme of things and probably a publicity stunt but it's better than it going overseas.[/QUOTE] Too bad all that requires a college education and none of these people will be able to send their kids to colleges without a source of income.

[QUOTE=Bazsil;51505939]Is this the part where we all start acting like these jobs matter and this is damning of Trumps presidency, when the original thread about this was pretty much unanimous that the jobs were too little anyway and [I]that[/I] was damning of Trump's presidency too?[/QUOTE] the jobs being unimportant doesn't mean the president-elect didn't just get fucking scammed

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;51505697]Okay? People still have to build the robots, write the software they run on, manage the plant, maintain the production line. Some jobs is better than none. I get that it's a trivial number of jobs in the grand scheme of things and probably a publicity stunt but it's better than it going overseas.[/QUOTE] People working the assembly lines often aren't skilled to work on installing the machines supposed to replace them. That requires re-education, a thing that (AFAIK but pretty damn sure) the workers will have to pay for themselves, ontop of (most likely) not getting paid while being re-educated. This seems to be the spot where the US has failed horribly, it sucks at educating and re-educating people without fleecing them horribly while doing so.

Competitive manufacturing in the United States died awhile ago. If you want to mass produce anything cheaply here, it's going to be done by robots.

I praised Trump in the first thread about this because 1000 jobs saved from outsourcing is still 1000 families able to keep a home with food on the table. But not only was the 1000 number inflated, most of those jobs are going to be lost to automation anyway as the tax break Pence is giving them isn't even going to workers. What a fucking joke.