EPA pushes to accelerate electric vehicle adoption before Trump takes over, automakers not happy - Polidicks

[QUOTE]Now the EPA is rushing to file its midterm review of the standard early in order to put in place the fleet fuel consumption requirement of 54.5 mpg by 2025 before Trump takes over – though the agency claims it’s not what motivated them. While not impossible, it will be much more difficult for Trump’s administration to change the mandate once it’s put in place, and automakers are already expressing concerns. ... Last week, Ford CEO Mark Fields called the EPA’s move “eleventh-hour politics” and said that his company will turn to Trump in order to remedy the situation [/QUOTE] [url]https://electrek.co/2016/12/07/epa-electric-vehicle-trump/[/url]

I mean, the next head is a fossil fuels guy so this doesn't surprise me. Good luck to the current EPA, I hope they get this passed.

I believe Fields said earlier that Ford will be working with Trump much like Carrier did to keep jobs in exchange for looser regulations. Completely unsurprised by this.

[QUOTE=Steel & Iron;51493832]I believe Fields said earlier that Ford will be working with Trump much like Carrier did to keep jobs in exchange for looser regulations. Completely unsurprised by this.[/QUOTE] I'd rather lose 1,000 jobs than to loosen any type of environmental regulations.

[QUOTE=Steel & Iron;51493832]I believe Fields said earlier that Ford will be working with Trump much like Carrier did to keep jobs in exchange for looser regulations. Completely unsurprised by this.[/QUOTE] Whew, so Ford is holding jobs hostage to get the law changed? Quality.

Fortunately even when this scum is heading the E.P.A we may find some solace with that some automakers may not immediately go right back to big giant V8s or mass polluting. GM during the auto collapse could've axed the Volt and kill the technology again, yet they axed Hummer, Pontiac and more and convinced the Obama Administration to let them continue developing the Volt. Now they have developed a platform for themselves and are beating Tesla to the punch on a 200 mile range car for $30k after tax credits. It's not perfect, but no car is and they've shown commitment to it. It obviously isn't out of the good of their hearts for the environment, but it gives me some hope they'll continue to advance the electric technology if they want to make a profit. Ford is being pretty scummy though, no arguing there.

[QUOTE=MissZoey;51494490]Whew, so Ford is holding jobs hostage to get the law changed? Quality.[/QUOTE] It's fucked up too, because they basically hold all the cards. If the government doesn't give in to their demands, they'll just keep their shit out-sourced and refuse to budge until they get exactly what they want. If anyone tries to pass a bill that taxes imported goods manufactured from over-seas, their lobbyists will pull support for re-election campaigns.

the funny thing is there's too much money to be made in the first company to roll out electric fleet vehicles for uber, lyft and more. Automakers are pushing towards the self-driving fleet vehicle future which will be electric (because gas tech doesn't work well with self driving) and frankly the demographics are changing. Sure there's the odd redneck who insists on buying the most gas guzziling thing he can find (IE my brother) but the market is for economical, connected cars and even relatively economical trucks. The cruze is GM's best selling car and thats not going to change if the Trump admin rolls back every fuel mileage regulation

[QUOTE=Sableye;51495847]Sure there's the odd redneck who insists on buying the most gas guzziling thing he can find (IE my brother) but the market is for economical, connected cars and even relatively economical trucks. The cruze is GM's best selling car and thats not going to change if the Trump admin rolls back every fuel mileage regulation[/QUOTE] The thing about big gas guzzling diesel trucks is that they literally pay for themselves with all the work you can get done with them.

[QUOTE=Shirt.;51495890]The thing about big gas guzzling diesel trucks is that they literally pay for themselves with all the work you can get done with them.[/QUOTE] But how much of that work can you not do with electric motors? They're just as powerful, if not moreso than the aforementioned trucks. Range may be an issue, but power certainly isn't.

[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51494650]GM during the auto collapse could've axed the Volt and kill the technology again, yet they axed Hummer, Pontiac and more and convinced the Obama Administration to let them continue developing the Volt. [/QUOTE] Does GM still own the Hummer name? I think it'd be pretty fucking cool to one day have Hummers come back but as electrics. Then we'd have these massive SUVs that run on electric

[QUOTE=ZombieWaffle;51496263]But how much of that work can you not do with electric motors? They're just as powerful, if not moreso than the aforementioned trucks. Range may be an issue, but power certainly isn't.[/QUOTE] Electric motors are extremely torquey at low RPMs (in fact pretty much the moment they start moving ALL of their torque is available), but it falls off at higher speeds. So EVs can accelerate stupid quick, but higher top-speeds is a little more difficult to attain.

Electric motors have a lot of torque but how well will it hold it up when its carrying large loads? When you have trucks carrying thousands of lbs in a payload or hauling over 10,000 lbs how long will that battery last before it needs to be charged? Especially for trucks that will be driving probably double or even triple the range of a Model S. [QUOTE=Sableye;51495847]the funny thing is there's too much money to be made in the first company to roll out electric fleet vehicles for uber, lyft and more. Automakers are pushing towards the self-driving fleet vehicle future which will be electric (because gas tech doesn't work well with self driving) and frankly the demographics are changing. Sure there's the odd redneck who insists on buying the most gas guzziling thing he can find (IE my brother) but the market is for economical, connected cars and even relatively economical trucks. The cruze is GM's best selling car and thats not going to change if the Trump admin rolls back every fuel mileage regulation[/QUOTE] I look forward to self driving for the early morning commutes and to get rid of terrible drivers on the roads but I really hope human driving isn't removed. I love going for late night cruises when no one else is on the road, I just love that feeling of the steering wheel in my hand and being the one to guide the car. Having nothing else but just the act of driving on my mind. [QUOTE=gk99;51496497]Does GM still own the Hummer name? I think it'd be pretty fucking cool to one day have Hummers come back but as electrics. Then we'd have these massive SUVs that run on electric[/QUOTE] Maybe, they still own the Pontiac name afaik.

[QUOTE=Shirt.;51495890]The thing about big gas guzzling diesel trucks is that they literally pay for themselves with all the [I]compensation[/I] you can get done with them.[/QUOTE] Can't forget rolling coal and truck nutz friendo.

[QUOTE=Zero-Point;51500745]Electric motors are extremely torquey at low RPMs (in fact pretty much the moment they start moving ALL of their torque is available), but it falls off at higher speeds. So EVs can accelerate stupid quick, but higher top-speeds is a little more difficult to attain.[/QUOTE] Here's some actual data: [img]http://i.imgur.com/1vkYB.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.global-greenhouse-warming.com/images/TeslaTorquegraph_v2.gif[/img] As tesla's don't have gearboxes, there is some slight loss in power at the higher end. If you added a changeable gearbox into the unit, you could easily take on the upper speed ranges, but Tesla favoured higher reliability and dropping the cost a little.

[QUOTE=nuttyboffin;51502281]Here's some actual data: [img]http://i.imgur.com/1vkYB.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.global-greenhouse-warming.com/images/TeslaTorquegraph_v2.gif[/img] As tesla's don't have gearboxes, there is some slight loss in power at the higher end. If you added a changeable gearbox into the unit, you could easily take on the upper speed ranges, but Tesla favoured higher reliability and dropping the cost a little.[/QUOTE] Sometime in the future, it would be incredible to see Tesla make a super car. Just to really show off what electric cars are capable of.

[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51502070]Can't forget rolling coal and truck nutz friendo.[/QUOTE] Isn't that only done by rednecks though? The average suburban bro with the sickk lifted F-150 doesn't seem like the type to do that.

This is good news, I wish they had done it years ago instead of five minutes before Trump gets elected.

[QUOTE=nuttyboffin;51502281] If you added a changeable gearbox into the unit, you could easily take on the upper speed ranges, but Tesla favoured higher reliability and dropping the cost a little.[/QUOTE] According to a Musk Biography, they wanted to have a gearbox in the Roadster, but it tore up anything they put into it really quickly. I'd like to see what they could do with a proper gearbox, but I imagine it might raise the price considerably. Maybe for a super car? [editline]9th December 2016[/editline] Not to mention they really didn't need a gearbox for the purpose of the current line of Tesla vehicles.

This is great for the environment and all, but what about the people who fix conventional vehicles? If EVs become mainstream that's a LOT of auto mechanics suddenly out of a job.

[QUOTE=GoldenDargon;51506038]This is great for the environment and all, but what about the people who fix conventional vehicles? If EVs become mainstream that's a LOT of auto mechanics suddenly out of a job.[/QUOTE] EVs need fixing too. Might be a bit of training involved, and maybe a few job losses from slightly lower demand. Overall shouldn't be too much of an impact though.

[QUOTE=Morgen;51506484]EVs need fixing too. Might be a bit of training involved, and maybe a few job losses from slightly lower demand. Overall shouldn't be too much of an impact though.[/QUOTE] A big thing: it won't happen instantly. That and there are still plenty of components that are common to both electric and ICE cars.

[QUOTE=GoldenDargon;51506038]This is great for the environment and all, but what about the people who fix conventional vehicles? If EVs become mainstream that's a LOT of auto mechanics suddenly out of a job.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Morgen;51506484]EVs need fixing too. Might be a bit of training involved, and maybe a few job losses from slightly lower demand. Overall shouldn't be too much of an impact though.[/QUOTE] If our government learns from past mistakes and actually provides job training to auto techs put out of work they'll learn to work on EVs. Take out the gas engine and -[B]uninformed EV opinion alert[/B]- you still have the routine brake replacements every other year, suspension maintenance, wheel alignment, tire rotation, steering and other basic maintenance. Beyond that mechanics and techs will probably just be trained in repairing and maintaining electric drivetrains, and electronic equipment repairs. Now that I think about it, the whole automotive mechanic profession might be absorbed into the electrical trade. So the people doing this work now won't really be out of a job they might just get a name change as they adjust to EVs.

[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51506622]If our government learns from past mistakes and actually provides job training to auto techs put out of work they'll learn to work on EVs. Take out the gas engine and -[B]uninformed EV opinion alert[/B]- you still have the routine brake replacements every other year, suspension maintenance, wheel alignment, tire rotation, steering and other basic maintenance. Beyond that mechanics and techs will probably just be trained in repairing and maintaining electric drivetrains, and electronic equipment repairs. Now that I think about it, the whole automotive mechanic profession might be absorbed into the electrical trade. So the people doing this work now won't really be out of a job they might just get a name change as they adjust to EVs.[/QUOTE] Brakes need replacing a lot less often on EVs (at least if your using regen properly)

[QUOTE=Morgen;51506809]Brakes need replacing a lot less often on EVs (at least if your using regen properly)[/QUOTE] They're still going to need replacing!

[QUOTE=ZombieWaffle;51496263]But how much of that work can you not do with electric motors? They're just as powerful, if not moreso than the aforementioned trucks. Range may be an issue, but power certainly isn't.[/QUOTE] Well I regularly tow on the order of 3000-4000 pounds for a couple hundred miles a trip. it's gonna be a long time before EVs catch up with my fairly common usage scenario. we're gonna have to find a better battery than lithium cells first on account of the fact that we're already reaching the limits of what they can do thanks to smart phones and the like. even ignoring range I don't think moving 5 or 6 tons at 70 miles an hour is something electric motors will be happy with

[QUOTE=butre;51507020]Well I regularly tow on the order of 3000-4000 pounds for a couple hundred miles a trip. it's gonna be a long time before EVs catch up with my fairly common usage scenario. we're gonna have to find a better battery than lithium cells first on account of the fact that we're already reaching the limits of what they can do thanks to smart phones and the like. even ignoring range I don't think moving 5 or 6 tons at 70 miles an hour is something electric motors will be happy with[/QUOTE] Energy density is still improving 5% - 10% every year or so, and costs are going down quickly now. Electric motors aren't going to have a problem with that much weight if you can supply the power, why would they? The towing range of an EV depends much more on aerodynamics than weight as well (to a point anyway). Towing a land rover on a trailer at ~4800 lbs with a Model X P100D will give you about 130 - 150 miles range on the highway. When Tesla release the regular 100D in the next few months you will probably see that go up to 170.. maybe more.

[QUOTE=nuttyboffin;51502281]Here's some actual data: [img]http://i.imgur.com/1vkYB.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.global-greenhouse-warming.com/images/TeslaTorquegraph_v2.gif[/img] As tesla's don't have gearboxes, there is some slight loss in power at the higher end. If you added a changeable gearbox into the unit, you could easily take on the upper speed ranges, but Tesla favoured higher reliability and dropping the cost a little.[/QUOTE] id like to see wtf v6 camaro makes 2000 ft lbs cause then i clearly bought the wrong car... also second chart doesnt have torque / hp cross at 5252 rpm, whered u even get these from. "4-cylinder high-performance engine torque curve" producing an extremely high output of 125 ft lbs and why plot kW and ft lbs?? what

[QUOTE=Jaehead;51508624]id like to see wtf v6 camaro makes 2000 ft lbs cause then i clearly bought the wrong car... also second chart doesnt have torque / hp cross at 5252 rpm, whered u even get these from. "4-cylinder high-performance engine torque curve" producing an extremely high output of 125 ft lbs and why plot kW and ft lbs?? what[/QUOTE] 2200 lb ft for the Tesla... No.

[QUOTE=Jaehead;51508624]id like to see wtf v6 camaro makes 2000 ft lbs cause then i clearly bought the wrong car... also second chart doesnt have torque / hp cross at 5252 rpm, whered u even get these from. "4-cylinder high-performance engine torque curve" producing an extremely high output of 125 ft lbs and why plot kW and ft lbs?? what[/QUOTE] It's a dynamic graph through all gears. The transmission and rear end multiply torque and horsepower in low gears. There was no correction to the graph to take that into account.