Israel using flechette shells that spray out a thousand tiny metal pieces in Gaza
112 replies, posted
[IMG]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/7/20/1405856235803/Flechette-shell-darts-009.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/7/20/1405856512428/Flechette-shell-darts-emb-011.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Infab;45449216][IMG]http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/images/S002.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.stardestroyer.net/Armour/ShepPics/Aberdeen/Beehive.jpg[/IMG]
That's just downright vicious.[/QUOTE]
[URL]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israel-using-flechette-shells-in-gaza[/URL]
[quote]
The Israeli military is using flechette shells, which spray out thousands of tiny and potentially lethal metal darts, in its military operation in [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/world/gaza"]Gaza[/URL].
Six flechette shells were fired towards the village of Khuzaa, east of Khan Younis, on 17 July, according to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. Nahla Khalil Najjar, 37, suffered injuries to her chest, it said. PCHR provided a picture of flechettes taken by a fieldworker last week.
The [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/world/israel"]Israel[/URL] Defence Forces (IDF) did not deny using the shells in the conflict. "As a rule, the IDF only employs weapons that have been determined lawful under international law, and in a manner which fully conforms with the laws of armed conflict," a spokesperson said in response to a request for specific comment on the deployment of flechettes.
B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights organisation, describes a flechette shell as "an anti-personnel weapon that is generally fired from a tank. The shell explodes in the air and releases thousands of metal darts 37.5mm in length, which disperse in a conical arch 300 metres long and about 90 metres wide".
[B]The munitions are not prohibited under international humanitarian law, but according to B'Tselem, "other rules of humanitarian law render their use in the Gaza Strip illegal. One of the most fundamental principles is the obligation to distinguish between those who are involved and those who are not involved in the fighting, and to avoid to the extent possible injury to those who are not involved. Deriving from this principle is the prohibition of the use of an imprecise weapon which is likely to result in civilian injuries[/B]."
...
The Israeli military deployed artillery shells containing white phosphorous in densely populated areas of Gaza during Operation Cast Lead in 2008 and 2009, causing scores of deaths and extensive burns. It initially issued a categorical denial of reports of the use of white phosphorous, but later admitted it, saying the weapon was only used to create smokescreens.
[B]Human Rights Watch said its use of the munitions in Operation Cast Lead was indiscriminate[/B] and [URL="http://www.hrw.org/fr/node/81821"]evidence of war crimes[/URL][B].[/B]
In response to a legal challenge, the IDF said last year it would "avoid the use in built-up areas of artillery shells containing white phosphorus, with two narrow exceptions." [URL="http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-to-stop-using-shells-with-white-phosphorus-in-populated-areas-state-tells-high-court.premium-1.523852"]The exceptions were not disclosed[/URL].
[/quote]
500 Palestinians dead, mostly civilian.
18 Israelis dead, mostly military.
The popular contrived arguments for the death of so many innocent civilians in Gaza is that Gaza is so densely-packed and Israel just can't help accidentally killing civilians left and right, and yet here have this weapon. Another tool by Israel to maximize civilian distress without doing so overtly.
What's the difference between these and regular shrapnel? It's not like it's a cluster bomb that may leave unexploded bomblets.
Whatever the case, israel are disgusting for doing this to civillians anyway.
Wait, these aren't against Geneva convention? Madness.
Dammit Israel what the hell.
First White Phosphorus now this?
What a mess..
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;45449082]What's the difference between these and regular shrapnel? [/QUOTE]
They are aerodynamic, can fly much greater distances and as with all other types of flechettes their shape allows them to deliver a more focused kinetic impact compared to most other projectile shapes
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;45449082]What's the difference between these and regular shrapnel? It's not like it's a cluster bomb that may leave unexploded bomblets.[/QUOTE]
Clusterbombs are fucking expensive compared to a bunch of nails with fins. Also the fact that flechette don't destroy buildings but still pierce light vehicles.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;45449088]Wait, these aren't against Geneva convention? Madness.[/QUOTE]
It's a fucking shotgun in a larger form. Do we outlaw slugs and buckshot from a 12 gauge under the same pretext?
I was just confused for a bit, the article was written like they had used mustard gas or something.
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;45449082]What's the difference between these and regular shrapnel? It's not like it's a cluster bomb that may leave unexploded bomblets.
Whatever the case, israel are disgusting for doing this to civillians anyway.[/QUOTE]
Shrapnel generally doesn't travel as far and is localised within the area of an explosion. It's also less capable of wounding, but still potentially lethal. This weapon is basically an upscaled shotgun.
That is so [b]nazi[/b] of them.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45449127]It's a fucking shotgun in a larger form. Do we outlaw slugs and buckshot from a 12 gauge under the same pretext?[/QUOTE]
Shotguns are fired out of artillery cannons?
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45449127]It's a fucking shotgun in a larger form. Do we outlaw slugs and buckshot from a 12 gauge under the same pretext?[/QUOTE]
It's a non-lethal weapon. The alternative to this is actual civilian deaths.
I'd much prefer they use this over some of Israel's other weapon selections.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Did not read the article" - Starpluck))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45449127]It's a fucking shotgun in a larger form. Do we outlaw slugs and buckshot from a 12 gauge under the same pretext?[/QUOTE]
Geneva convention bans far less brutal things; for instance hollowpoint ammo and other kinds of ammo that deform after they enter the body.
Flechettes cause as much collateral damage as you can without going with nuclear, biological, or clustering bombs.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45449127]It's a fucking shotgun in a larger form. Do we outlaw slugs and buckshot from a 12 gauge under the same pretext?[/QUOTE]
Shotguns, being small arms, are a lot more precise than a weapon like this, especially fired from range. Anyone within a [B]45m[/b] radius of the point of aim are at risk of being killed. A shotgun's grouping is going to be closer to 50cm depending on range and whatnot.
The Shujaiyya District was hit by a lot of tank fire, they may very well could have been using this weapon on them. (60+ dead)
[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1410928[/url]
[QUOTE=Starpluck;45449152]Shotguns are fired out of artillery cannons?[/QUOTE]
No, but flechettes can be effectively used from a rifle or [url=http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/5rds-12-gauge-flechette-ammo]shotgun[/url]. This is just an upscaled variant.
[QUOTE=Monkah;45449158]It's a non-lethal weapon.[/QUOTE]
Wut
[url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/apr/18/israelandthepalestinians[/url]
The Shujaiyya District was hit by a lot of tank fire, they may very well could have been using this weapon on them. (60+ dead)
[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1410928[/url]
[QUOTE=Monkah;45449158]It's a non-lethal weapon. The alternative to this is actual civilian deaths.
I'd much prefer they use this over some of Israel's other weapon selections.[/QUOTE]
Yes, lets see how you look like when a tank shoots a canister that holds a thousand of these at you.
[img]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/7/20/1405856235803/Flechette-shell-darts-009.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Monkah;45449158]It's a non-lethal weapon.[/QUOTE]
Do your research mate. These are bits of steel being fired from 120mm tank cannon. Non-lethal my fucking arse.
[QUOTE=Monkah;45449158]It's a non-lethal weapon. The alternative to this is actual civilian deaths.
I'd much prefer they use this over some of Israel's other weapon selections.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Did not read the article" - Starpluck))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
this literally is in no way a non-lethal weapon
[IMG]http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/images/S002.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.stardestroyer.net/Armour/ShepPics/Aberdeen/Beehive.jpg[/IMG]
That's just downright vicious.
Well, you can tell it's bad when they're using anti-personnel on civilians.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45449185]No, but flechettes can be effectively used from a rifle or [URL="http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/5rds-12-gauge-flechette-ammo"]shotgun[/URL]. [B]This is just an upscaled variant.[/B][/QUOTE]
That's exactly the problem. A quick skim of the article will tell you that it has a larger area of effect than a bloody shotgun shell.
Not to say that it should be banned under the Geneva convention, this weapon would have genuine military applications. But when it comes to fighting in populated areas, it's bound to cause a lot of unnecessary civilian casualties.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;45449167]Geneva convention bans far less brutal things; for instance hollowpoint ammo and other kinds of ammo that deform after they enter the body.[/QUOTE]
A part of me believes that bureaucrats should stay out of matters regarding war. Hollowpoints would drastically decrease the amount of collateral casualties if they were used in war.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;45449167]Flechettes cause as much collateral damage as you can without going with nuclear, biological, or clustering bombs.[/QUOTE]
But a 105mm smoothbore cannon can deliver a shell which effectively sends high-velocity shrapnel to 30m to 50m, and less-than-lethal shrapnel to 100m. HE shell to be exact.
[QUOTE=Infab;45449216][IMG]http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/images/S002.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.stardestroyer.net/Armour/ShepPics/Aberdeen/Beehive.jpg[/IMG]
That's just downright vicious.[/QUOTE]
So basically fills the same role as canister shot but with modern militarygrade accuracy standards?
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;45449168]Shotguns, being small arms, are a lot more precise than a weapon like this, especially fired from range. Anyone within a [B]45m[/b] radius of the point of aim are at risk of being killed. A shotgun's grouping is going to be closer to 50cm depending on range and whatnot.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. But the problem is that the other weapon of choice is 105mm HE shell being launched at a certain building. Putting a pretty massive hole into a house, and sending shrapnel all around.
Why is this so much more objectionable than using HE or fragmentation rounds?
[editline]20th July 2014[/editline]
Hell I would argue that canister/flechette rounds are significantly LESS indiscriminate than HE/fragmentation tank rounds
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45449258]Exactly. But the problem is that the other weapon of choice is 105mm HE shell being launched at a certain building. Putting a pretty massive hole into a house, and sending shrapnel all around.[/QUOTE]
That's true, but I doubt the amount of shrapnel generated by an HE shell would match the number or lethality of these flechettes.
In any case, at least it isn't White Phosphorus, it wouldn't surprise me if that came up in the news tomorrow.
[QUOTE=Virtanen;45449241]So basically fills the same role as canister shot but with modern militarygrade accuracy standards?[/QUOTE]
Well not precisely, canister shot is good for destroying buildings and damaging vehicles as well because of the sheer mass of the ball-bearings it shoots
These things are bollocks against armor or concrete at combat ranges because they don't have enough velocity or weight behind them to do serious damage, but to an unarmored civilian one of these will have little to no issue flying straight through their body with no resistance
It's a weapon designed for maximum range and maximum damage against soft targets, and nothing else. Does almost no damage to buildings or vehicles but will turn civilians into a pin-cushion
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